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Islam-bashing film sparks fears of violence

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No problems here boss,



I believe that my posts may have been read too hastily and a conclusion was drawn without thinking about what I have said.



The ONLY portion of Nite's post I was referring too was his quote about Christian/Jewish/Hindu terrorism. To me, that comment seemed very free form and was most definitely an opinionated comment which did not represent the film/film maker in question. This was confirmed by Nite himself when he said "Good points. I honestly did not know". If this had not been his own personal comment, why would he admit that he didn't know what I was talking about? As such, I took this as a very ill-informed question and cautioned Nite against making ill-informed questions.





If Nite wants to use his "agnostic" view to hide behind while creating a thread that in NO DOUBT will spark a religious debate, isn't it ironic that the creator of such a thread about religious faith/belief in Islam is a self proclaimed agnostic? Isn't that a little like a blind man arguing with a sighted person about how ugly a painting is/is not? I am just saying, how informed can the opinion on religion/belief/faith be when it is a debate headed by someone who has none? Everyone can make an opinion, sure, go ahead, but shouldn't it be an informed opinion? Is it not somewhat ridiculous to defend oneself against repercussions from religious bias by claiming one an agnostic? And then defend one's right to have a religious debate in the next paragraph?



Never once did I tell anyone in my string that they do not have the right to discuss religion. My comment regarding Nite's ill-informed opinion was not of any hostile nature, and not meant to be insulting. I apologize if he took it that way.

 
aegishjalmar said:
Then I would watch what you write, as it can be easily misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. Also, as an agnostic, you really shouldn't be commenting on others beliefs now should you? Your particular stance on religion does not make you impartial or un-biased, it makes you ill-informed, sir.

aegishjalmar said:
Never once did I tell anyone in my string that they do not have the right to discuss religion. My comment regarding Nite's ill-informed opinion was not of any hostile nature, and not meant to be insulting. I apologize if he took it that way.

Weell, what other way coiuld it be taking ? I'm puzzled about that one.

Being agnostic doesn't equal being ill informed, by the way ... And if only oerson of ertains beliefs would be commenting on it,
what a strange world would we be living in ...
 
I didnt't know my personal belief system were on trial.

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Jesus did half the miracles they say he did, or that god exists, or that Ra, or Zeus, or Allah, or any god for that matter existed in the first place. So the question remains - why do these people believe so strongly in a religion based on these "gods"?  Many would say faith. I don't say there is one at all. It's an opinion. Some say you can heal the sick through prayer. I say you heal the sick by going to see a doctor.

IT DOESNT MATTER.

The concept of religion is to establish a set of rules long long ago when law was more difficult to enforce (no radio, cars, guns etc.). The rules are your commandments, or scrolls, or Koran, or whatever. Follow those rules, and you should live a healthy prosperous life. Break the rules, and you don't. More wars have been started in the name of one god or another than any other factor. Better yet, religion is the cause of nearly 300 years of science lost (and to be found again during the renaissance). See the dark ages for a description of retardedness with religion.

Christianity? Nonsense. Islam? Nonsense as well. Egyption, Greek, Roman, Hindu, scientology? You get where I am going with this.

So now we have my belief system has been tried and found sane....

What was it you were saying again aegishjalmar? Maybe I should believe in Jesus and his disciples before I am allowed to comment on whether a film is portrayed one way or another, or if a religion is right or wrong in it's preaching? I'm entitled to my thoughts and opinion's not because I believe in something or not, but because I am a free thinking, air breathing human being with an IQ higher than that of a golden retriever (and barely at that somedays) :)

Nites
 
Future Prodigy said:
The bible is just as rife with violent acts as the Koran.

No it is not.For examples of this there is a book called "religion of peace?", worthy read.

My opinion on the film is this.
The Vatican did not issue death warrants to the writers of divinci code,and the copious amounts of books written on the Catholic church.
They did not kill the writer in the street,as did a Muslim extremist who killed Van Gogh for a similar circumstance.

I look at it like this.It's like certain families where I come from in Newfoundland.They have a bad name for crime,being a rough bunch etc.However it may only be 2-3 members of a 30 member family that are the trouble makers, the surname gets a bad reputation.
This is what's happening in the world today.I for one don't agree with blanket hate,but the confusion lies with most people in who is who.How do you tell the difference between an extremist and a moderate?You cannot.Therefore people who are scared/frustrated begin to hate all members of that faith.

I for one will admit while I do not hate anyone,I do ask myself sometime's I wonder if that mosque is breeding hate literature and promoting Jihad.Call me a bad person but at least I'm honest.I have 2 good friends who are Somali Muslim,and religion isn't a thing that ever comes up.But yes I do think these things sometimes.And I believe a lot of north American's do.
 
The movie has been removed from LiveLeak because of "credible threats on the lives of LiveLeak staff". 

Yup, peaceful, respectful, etc, etc, etc. :skull:
 
It's scary where a film such as this receives as many threats as it does. Or the cartoon of Mohammad. What possesses people to resort to threats (and sometimes acts) of violence just because they don't like a picture or film?

I mean this is one case. look at this:

www.toolofsatan.org

That's worth loads of giggles.

Or if you want to see a website that bashes christianity on a fairly regular basis. Yes my favorite:

www.southparkstudios.com

or how about:

http://www.familyguy.com/

I wonder how many death threats They get whenever they bash jesus, satan, or god.

So the question is: why the angst?

Nites
 
U.N. chief condemns anti-Islam film :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7319188.stm


Add :

Film critical of Islam drop from web site :

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/03/28/fitna.reaction/index.html
 
X-mo-1979 said:
My opinion on the film is this.
The Vatican did not issue death warrants to the writers of divinci code,and the copious amounts of books written on the Catholic church.

500-1000 years ago they were all about assassination and murder. They just progressed.  Islam is stuck 2000 years in the past thats all.

Silvester Stalone got threats when he was filming his latest Rambo installment, you think that stopped old rocky from filming? Hell with that.
 
I am not a lover of islam. Sharia law etc is barabaric, and to think many muslims are in favour of it, and it even reared its ugly head in Ontario.

Honour killings, no rights for women, death treats over cartoons etc, now a film. They are just loking for an excuse to promote violence because if they can't fight with one another, they'll find someone else.

I am way over it, and my tolerance ended sometime back.

Learned from not rumours, stories and INet sites, but experience in 5 islamic countries.

All while most of that faith sit back, rarely critisize, if so, its piss weak and for PC purposes.

To sum up, I don't care what you worhsip, or where you are from, but when you violate our laws and want to bring in yours with your culture/mentality of tribal hatred and violence, go home -  we're phucking full.

Name me one stable islamic country.
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
Name me one stable islamic country.

What about the UAE/Dubai? Aren't they pretty prosperous and a top-notch tourist destination?  I've never been there and I have only heard and read about it.
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
Name me one stable islamic country.

1. What would you personally define as stable? Just no internal conflicts? Or economic stability as well?

2. I would guess that Bahrain, Qatar, Tunisia, and UAE would at least be considered stable. I believe you've been to UAE (I think I remember from that travel map thread here) and was there any serious instability to be seen there?

 
Firstly, I found nothing wrong with the video, it speaks the truth about the extreme views. Some of us have lived it, others have heard about it.

Are they mad because one hears a page tear from their koran?? Hell, burn my bible, wipe your ass with it if you so desire. Sure its very disrespectful, but not worthy of killing someone over it.

EDITed:

I wonder how many of us (infidels) will pay with our lives, all because of a 10 minute movie, which is 99.9% full of their own words and actions.

Is it the mainstreamers who are crying vengance, or the nutcases?

Silence from the majority of so called happy muslims as far as I am concerned is in agreement with the nutcases.

I have a bible in my home, nothing wrong with that, although I have never read it.

Stable because of money means nothing. Politically they have their issues with radicals ratbags etc.

We made the UAE what it is today from oil. Without out it, donkeys would be their main mode of tpt.

Either way capital punishement, the cutting off of hands of thives in my view is far from normal. Terrorism is alive and well in these places.

However I will say when they look at us, see the violvence of drugs, and the gangs etc, we must look like Satan for sure. We are far from perfect, but we don't teach 'death to the west' in own our schools, or turn a blind eye to financing suspected terr orgs and worse.

Like I said, I am not a lover of their religion (and their culture), and this does not make me racist, it just says I have an opinion, nothing more. That opinion has been based on my life and experience.  Meanwehile here is some links...

These links are from the UK and Australian government sites, not some far fetched right wing styte disturbers. You can do your own research if you like, but I am reinforcing my own experience with these...

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1017170887028

Morocco: SAFETY AND SECURITY


Terrorism
There is a high threat from terrorism in Morocco.  Attacks could be indiscriminate, including in places frequented by expatriates and foreign travellers.

Recent significant events include:

On 13 August 2007 a man attempted to explode a small device near a tourist coach in the city of Meknes.  No-one apart from the bomber was injured.
On 14 April two suicide bombers killed themselves and slightly injured one passer-by near to an American Language Centre and the US Consulate in Casablanca.  It is suspected that the bombers were targeting US interests.
On 10 April 2007 three others blew themselves up, killing one policeman and injuring another, during police raids in Casablanca and another suspected terrorist was shot and killed during one of the raids.
On 11 March a suicide bomber killed himself and injured four others at an internet cafe in Casablanca.  Moroccan police have greatly enhanced security and made a number of arrests but continue to hunt for further suspected terrorists.
In August 2006, the Moroccan authorities arrested a number of individuals allegedly plotting to attack a number of targets, including noticeably Western interests.
In May 2003, 45 people were killed in a series of terrorist attacks in Casablanca.  These attacks were against relatively soft targets, including hotels and restaurants frequented by foreigners or those with Jewish links.  The Moroccan authorities arrested and imprisoned a number of those considered to be responsible for the attacks, there is a high threat of further attacks.

UAE from Australia's governemt view

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/United_arab_emirates


Summary
We advise you to exercise a high degree of caution in the United Arab Emirates because of the high threat of terrorist attack.
Statements by international terrorist groups continue to call for attacks against Westerners on the Arabian Peninsula and in the Gulf region. These include references to residential compounds, military, oil, transport and aviation interests. We continue to receive reports that terrorists are planning attacks against Western interests in the Gulf region. Commercial and public areas frequented by Westerners are possible terrorist targets.

Tunisia again from an Australian government site...

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Tunisia

Terrorism is a threat throughout the world. You can find more information about this threat in our General Advice to Australian Travellers.

We advise you to exercise caution and monitor developments that might affect your safety in Tunisia because of the risk of terrorist attack. Pay close attention to your personal security and monitor the media for information about possible new safety or security risks.

We assess terrorists may be continuing active planning of attacks in North Africa, including Tunisia. The 11 December 2007 attacks by Al-Qa'ida in the Land of the Magreb (AQIM) in Algiers (Algeria), the 3 November 2007 announcement of the merger of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group with Al-Qa'ida, and the cancellation of the 2008 Dakar Rally, all point to a growing threat environment in the region for targets frequented by foreigners or government officials.

During police raids and gun battles with a terrorist group south of Tunis in December 2006 and January 2007, Tunisian police killed a number of people and captured others. The recent sentencing of those arrested could prompt a reaction from their supporters, such as demonstrations or acts of violence.

Based on the above, Tunisia could possibly be a target of growing interest as any attack on the tourist sector would have significant consequences.

In planning your activities, therefore consider the kind of places known to be terrorist targets. These include government facilities and commercial areas known to be frequented by foreigners such as, but not limited to, residential areas, hotels, clubs, restaurants, bars, schools, market places, places of worship, outdoor recreation events and tourist areas.

Border with Algeria: We advise you to reconsider your need to travel to areas bordering Algeria because of the risk of kidnapping. In late February 2008, two tourists were kidnapped in the south of Tunisia, close to the border. If you are travelling independently, we recommend that you do not cross the border with Algeria. Ask yourself whether, given your own personal circumstances, you're comfortable travelling to these areas knowing that you could be caught up in a kidnapping attempt. Ask yourself whether travel could be deferred or an alternative destination chosen. If, having considered these issues, you do decide to travel to this part of Tunisia, you should exercise extreme caution

Qatar

I had a scary experience in Doha with the islamic police. Had my passport siezed, and I was interogated in a room, by a 4 ft nothing woman (with veil), ha! Nearly missed my flight. My accent with an Aussie passport sent them into a tailspin, as they 'thought' I was some US CIA spy. Idiots. This incident was reported to my S2 cell upon return to the MEAO.

Here is yet another link. Its from an Australian reputable  organisation.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1328166.htm

ELEANOR HALL: Still in the Arabian Peninsula, and analysts say the terrorist attack in Qatar on the weekend was probably timed to coincide with the anniversary of the US-led attack on Iraq.

The suicide bombing in the Qatari capital, Doha, killed one Briton and injured 12 people attending a theatre performance, and was the first major terrorist attack in the oil rich state.

But while Qatar has so far escaped much of the militant violence that has shaken neighbours Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, terrorism specialists say an attack in a country which has such strong ties to the US was inevitable.

And as Michael Vincent reports, they're predicting that more attacks are likely.

MICHAEL VINCENT: Egyptian man Omar Ahmad Abdullah Ali chose Saturday evening to drive his car into the Doha Players Theatre. The detonation that followed destroyed the one-storey building. Inside, the theatregoers had been watching Shakespeare's Twelfth Night.

This unidentified woman was interviewed by Al-Jazeera television in her hospital bed soon after.

WOMAN (translated): This was the tenth day of the play, which was attended by approximately 50 to 60 people. I was about to go in when the blast occurred. And then the walls collapsed. I think that was the cause of my injuries.

MICHAEL VINCENT: Authorities say it was fortunate only one person, an Englishman, died in the blast.

British Embassy spokesman, Eric Mattey.

ERIC MATTEY: We can confirm that one person was killed. There were a number of serious injuries, possibly 12 is a fairly close figure. The other injuries were minor, from flying glass. A lot of people were treated at the scene.

MICHAEL VINCENT: Investigations are now underway into what was Qatar's first terrorist attack. And what's surprised terrorism analysts is that the Egyptian man was apparently acting alone.

Clive Williams is Director of Terrorism Studies at the ANU.

CLIVE WILLIAMS: It sounds like he might've been influenced by a statement that was made last week by Saleh Al-Oufi, who is believed to be the al-Qaeda leader in the Gulf, who had urged people to mount attacks in Qatar.

MICHAEL VINCENT: Do you believe it's linked with the anniversary of the Iraq invasion?

CLIVE WILLIAMS: Uh, well, it certainly could be. I mean, it was, it seemed to be timed to coincide with that, and it's the first attack in Qatar. So, I would say it's more likely than not that it was.

MICHAEL VINCENT: No one yet knows who supplied Omar Ahmad Abdullah Ali with the explosives for his attack. But Clive Williams says it's worth noting that Ali, an employee of the Qatar Petroleum Company, chose to bomb westerners, not an oil installation.

And he says despite the probability of further attacks, the region's oil-reliant economy is reasonably secure.

CLIVE WILLIAMS: Even in Iraq the… although you get a lot of footage of burning pipelines and so on, the output of the oil has not really significantly reduced, because most of the oil is coming out through the south, through – in particular on the Faw peninsula and through the offshore oil platforms, and that's not been affected.

There has been an attempt to attack them last year – this is the oil platforms – but it was unsuccessful, so up 'til now it's been more difficult to mount those sorts of attacks, and they've not been successful in doing that.

MICHAEL VINCENT: So, you think that the economy of the region is reasonably secure, despite these sort of attacks?

CLIVE WILLIAMS: Uh, yes, because really the income of the area depends on oil, and of course oil is going through the roof at the moment, so, you know, these countries are going to be doing very well financially.

MICHAEL VINCENT: How many more attacks do you think westerners will, I guess, put up with before they start worrying about their own safety, to the extent that they want to leave?

CLIVE WILLIAMS: There's already been a substantial bailout of westerners from Saudi Arabia because the number of attacks there has been much higher, and so westerners are concerned about, and particularly, you know, people who've had their families there are now leaving their families at home if they are still working in Saudi Arabia.

So, it's changed the complexion, or some of them are actually leaving their families in Dubai and going and working in Saudi Arabia, because you know, it's next door, so it's not difficult, then you can at least go home on weekends and so on. So, there's more of that kind of thing going on – people working around the security problem.

But, as I said, in Qatar and Kuwait it's going to depend very much on whether the security forces can keep the lid on things. If they can't, we'll expect to see more of these sorts of incidents.

ELEANOR HALL: Director of Terrorism Studies at the Australian National University, Clive Williams, speaking to Michael Vincent


 
The UAE could probably solve hunger in Africa if they wanted to, they have enough money.
Still a nice place to visit, it was nice being in an islamic country seeing the culture and feeing safe.
 
foduquette said:
FYI

Fitna:
Arabic with english subtitles: http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/fitna-english-version/
Arab with french subtitles: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4vgp9_fitna-sous-titre-francais-geert-wil_news

And the link of Wilders interview about Europa, Dutch, islam and others: http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2008/03/geert-wilders-video-interview/

Have a good day,

F

Thanks for the link! Interesting movie but not as controversial as I would have thought; still the truth hurts for some, I guess.

This movie does make you realise how precious and how fragile Freedom is.
 
Wes,

Irshad Manji, a canadian author describes The Trouble With Islam ( her books' title )
as being an expresion of Arab culture. I believe this to be true.
I think you touched on this in your post.
I have met many sincere muslims who are great neighbours and members of my community.  I have also met a very few potential monsters. In Canada that is.

While, I don't think there is any group of humans that has no blood on it's hands.
There are some pretty dark shades of grey in some parts of the world as you point out.
So - to agree with Manji - Islam has to evolve. The current trend within Islam is not a healthy one, just as Christianity has taken some bad turns.  Today Christianity and western secularism compliment each other and maintain what I think is a pretty good balance.  

The context of all this is the film and it's intended roll.
I think Wilders intention was to provoke a change of mind if not position in the politically correct and loathe to act  Western Europe

When I suggested that no group of humans was bloodless, I top my list with pacifists and PC liberals, who cause harm and destruction, by appeasment.



 
Flip said:
When I suggested that no group of humans was bloodless, I top my list with pacifists and PC liberals, who cause harm and destruction, by appeasment.

Wow, talk about playing the self-blame game.

I'd start with Communism/socialism and work my way to the religious of all stripes, then the racists, then the colonizers, then the monarchs and way down the list somewhere would be the progressives and pacifists.
 
I do not intend to get into the right or wrong of this film
however one thing strikes me, in the discussion in the media,
it seems if you belong to a minority group,any minority group,
you can say just about anything you wish about the majority
with complete impunity.When the shoe is on the other foot
however then the wave of criticism from the seemly guilt-ridden
Lefties just goes completely,IMHO, overboard.
When will us WASPs become a recognizable minority and able
to whine about our rights.
                            Regards
 
Wow, talk about playing the self-blame game.
Reccesoldier,
My qualifier was not historical signifigance or seriousness.
My list starts with who bugs me most.

The "progressive" crowd choose to be how they are more than the others on your list ( I think) I would put communists as second.
 
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