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Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

>The FBI, with our local, state, and federal law enforcement partners, is jointly investigating this incident to determine the nature and motive for the attack.

I suppose sometimes it takes more than 8 minutes.
 
Jarnhamar said:
More Allah-ackbaring but with a happy ending.
Dummy tries to blow himself up at an airport in Brussels (aledgedly targeting soldiers) but just turns himself into a flaming marshmallow.

https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/06/brussels-bomber-immigrant/

The Darwin is strong with this one...
 
Flavus101 said:
I hope charges come swiftly and the "leadership" of that localities religious institution is removed.


Unfortunately, I don't suspect dethroning 'preachers' will happen any time soon for one reason. The overwhelming issue is that in Islam there is no central authority (akin to the Vatican for Catholics) that regulates the dissemination of Islamic scripture; there are a number of competing—all of which incessantly fight for influence—'schools' of Islamic jurisprudence, and they either slightly or starkly vary in their takes on the meaning of scripture. Some are Maliki, Jafari, Ibadi, Hanbali; Hanbali in particular includes—although some reject this—Wahhabism (the most extreme doctrine, resulting in distortions of jihadism, tied to Saudi Arabia; some conspiracy theories insist that Wahhabism was invented within the Hanbali in the early 20th century by architects of Zionism seeking to weaken support for Palestinians, but—although Wahhabism is a notable divergence from work of early Hanbalites—these theories are largely baseless).

The lack of a central authority presents a problem because, then, preachers who preach distorted and fundamentally-incompatible interpretations of 'jihad', and expressly call for violence and terror rather than peaceful coexistence, face no risk of being punished or excommunicated (unlike the Vatican, which can excommunicate Catholic priests that refuse to faithfully abide by accepted interpretations of the New Testament in their sermons). So, the net result is that there are a range of preachers across the Islamic world who give sermons of varying degrees—anything from generosity, tolerance and coexistence to violent and anti-West jihad; and there is no methodical and consistent means of challenging their 'authority' within the religion itself; only the state can do this, but doing so in the West is tricky and may cause alienation.

In light of recent attacks, I think a number of remedies are in order:

<1>  Sensationalist media or tabloid papers, such as the Sun Media in Canada and the Daily Mail in the UK, need to quit catering to their readers' vulnerabilities, particularly evoking widespread fear and stoking hatred with their publications. That's a haphazard way to inform the public in their quest for solutions. I imagine, a lot of Daily Mail readers would support responses that include mass deportation, mass internment, or even, ethnic cleansing (which, I'm sure have recalled, has been attempted before, regrettably). Internment or deportation would obviously be effective in the short term; but they will actually only deepen the alienation and will turn out to be more destructive. Ultimately, the scale of destruction in the aftermath could amount to ethnic cleansing. I would not call this out of the question because I have noticed that there is, at least online, a lot of nihilism and regression back to primitive, survivalist, responses to these perceived threats; the evolutionary adaption that allowed humans to be hypersocial and gave them the gift of reasoning—i.e. the neocortex or outer-most layer of the brain—is being bypassed with these responses. It's regrettable, but very human. These are the vulnerabilities of readers I am speaking of; to be clear, this first recommendation is for sensationalist media to guard against them when they are composing their writing.

<2> I think tackling online radicalization, as the UK's embattled PM, Theresa May, briefly remarked, is a step in the right direction (despite the objections that may come from net neutrality advocates), but I don't think an online 'campaign' against radicalization goes far enough. The root cause of these heinous crimes is marginalization and alienation. It all begins with marginalization and alienation. There needs to be local, community-based, support programs and social initiatives to prevent marginalization; these need to come from both government and faith communities, and the government programs certainly need to include mental health.

<3>  One particular remedy falls on the Muslim community. Muslims need to stop attending sermons and establishments run by preachers who preach these distorted versions or far-fetched interpretations. Why this is not happening sooner, I have yet to grasp. I imagine it has to do with laziness and culturally-ingrained lack of political enthusiasm from various North African and Middle Eastern communities. Sooner or later, I figure, they will get moving.

<4>  Finally, non-Muslims really need to try to resist the urge to generalize. They need to be reminded that terrorism is not limited to Islam and hasn't suddenly appeared in the 21st Century out of a void. It has been around for a very long time, as University of Chicago professor Robert Pape pointed out, and in various political and religious contexts. There are Buddhists groups who engaged in terrorism for religious causes. There is the present-day PKK in Turkey; France's right-wing La Cagoule at the outset and during WWII; and Canada's own, now-defunct, FLQ; who all used violence towards political ends—the definition of terrorism. It is inconceivable for 1.3 billion to be held accountable for the actions of a fraction of 'bad apples.' Much in the same way, Catholics are not violent and oppressive, or blameworthy, for the bombings by IRA militants and other religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Protestant unionists; and, further, Protestants are not accountable for the religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Catholics, perpetrated by the Ulster Defense Association militants who are Protestant; nor are Catholics accountable for the same attacks, and assassination of English royal and cousin to Queen Elizabeth II, namely, Lord Mountbatten, perpetrated by the IRA militants. Note that they are politically-motivated because unionists are a political group (they support the preservation of the union of Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales) and religiously motivated because Protestants are a sect and oppose the other sect, Catholics, who account for the opposing political movement—Irish Republicanism (the separation of Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom in favor of a united Irish republic).

Interestingly, at one point in ancient history (around 5-600 AD), there was a school of Murjites (or 'the Postponers'), which was the most lenient school. As you may have imagined from their name, the Murjites believed in postponing any sort of judgment against a person until his/her end of life, when s/he comes before God in the afterlife (N.B.: I am just recalling what they believed; I don't necessarily share those beliefs). Their crux of their teachings is that there is only one judge of a person's deeds or misdeeds, and that judge is God; no human being can take God's role. Murjites, thus, would oppose labeling anyone a 'heretic' and oppose present-day Sharia courts that routinely pass judgment and dole out punishments against convicted 'heretics;' they would oppose violent Jihad because it is, by its nature, judgmental; in essence, they would oppose any act that harms a person in response to their beliefs because it would require judgment. Unfortunately, their influence quickly dwindled when, in later periods (by as early as 8-900 AD, I think), harsher and competing schools gained influence and deemed the Murjites, and their followers, 'heretics' and had the lot of them executed (ironically, in doing so, adherents of those opposing schools passed judgment against the Murjites and inflicted punishment). Apart from deferring judgment, Murjites also believed that any adherent to the faith who began taking steps to carry out a grave sin, such as murder, relinquished his/her status as an adherent.

A disclosure: I am of Muslim heritage and was raised by very lenient Muslim parents; but I identify as an agnostic and don't practice.
 
Thucydides said:
Reprise on how to "turn" the population to our side. Certainly nothing we have tried to date seems to have worked:

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/06/03/counter-terror-lessons-from-americas-civil-war/

It concerns me that you've cited this dangerous diatribe written by Goldman. He's recalling history for solutions to complex problems and relying on brutes like Phil Sheridan; Sheridan, by all accounts, is brute who subscribes to the primitive view that might makes right. I can find many contemporaries like him: the infamous Donald J. Trump, for one; another is recently-elected GOP congressman Greg Gianforte, who, instead of skillfully navigating difficult questions from journalists as Pierre Elliot Trudeau was known for (par exemple), he physically assaults them and goes on a rant about their tough questions. Trudeau (Sr.) was an admirable statesman; Gianforte is a brute who represents maladapted aggression.

Goldman should be ashamed for advocating brutish and blatantly unlawful tactics. He should be ashamed for recalling and praising tactics by Sheridan, whose strategy to deal with Confederacy snipers would now constitute serious crimes prosecutable under the Rome Statute. Did Goldman forget that pillaging is a war crime, and prosecutable, during wartime—it would be unconscionable to venture that route during peacetime. He should be particularly ashamed for giving the appearance that alienating swaths of peaceful Muslims with denigrating and inhumane tactics that, he thinks, is the silver bullet to our pressing problems, just because deranged Phil Sheridan succeeded in his time; on the contrary, it will—with scant doubt—contribute to the very problem of radicalization, rather than address it. It seems the awakening of the human conscience after the Holocaust has not benefitted him, for he is calling us to regress to Sheridan's level; Sheridan probably knew no bounds and would probably regress further to primordial, medieval pre-Enlightenment and cruelty.

His essay distilled, Goldman seems to think it's entirely reasonable and proper for a teacher to penalize the entire class for the lone thief who refuses to disclose himself and the few classmates who may know of him; there's something profoundly cruel about punishing bystanders, after accusing them of harboring or facilitating the perpetrator, to find the concealed hoodlum among them. I am gobsmacked by his audacity to pen that dangerous idea; I am also concerned that a member of our venerated military cited it rather approvingly.

 
Lex Justitia said:

Unfortunately, I don't suspect dethroning 'preachers' will happen any time soon for one reason. The overwhelming issue is that in Islam there is no central authority (akin to the Vatican for Catholics) that regulates the dissemination of Islamic scripture; there are a number of competing—all of which incessantly fight for influence—'schools' of Islamic jurisprudence, and they either slightly or starkly vary in their takes on the meaning of scripture. Some are Maliki, Jafari, Ibadi, Hanbali; Hanbali in particular includes—although some reject this—Wahhabism (the most extreme doctrine, resulting in distortions of jihadism, tied to Saudi Arabia; some conspiracy theories insist that Wahhabism was invented within the Hanbali in the early 20th century by architects of Zionism seeking to weaken support for Palestinians, but—although Wahhabism is a notable divergence from work of early Hanbalites—these theories are largely baseless).

The lack of a central authority presents a problem because, then, preachers who preach distorted and fundamentally-incompatible interpretations of 'jihad', and expressly call for violence and terror rather than peaceful coexistence, face no risk of being punished or excommunicated (unlike the Vatican, which can excommunicate Catholic priests that refuse to faithfully abide by accepted interpretations of the New Testament in their sermons). So, the net result is that there are a range of preachers across the Islamic world who give sermons of varying degrees—anything from generosity, tolerance and coexistence to violent and anti-West jihad; and there is no methodical and consistent means of challenging their 'authority' within the religion itself; only the state can do this, but doing so in the West is tricky and may cause alienation.

In light of recent attacks, I think a number of remedies are in order:

<1>  Sensationalist media or tabloid papers, such as the Sun Media in Canada and the Daily Mail in the UK, need to quit catering to their readers' vulnerabilities, particularly evoking widespread fear and stoking hatred with their publications. That's a haphazard way to inform the public in their quest for solutions. I imagine, a lot of Daily Mail readers would solutions that include mass deportation, mass internment, or even, ethnic cleansing (which, I'm sure your call, has been attempted before, regrettably). Internment or deportation would obviously be effective in the short term; but they will actually only deepen the alienation and turn out to be more destructive. Ultimately, the scale of destruction in the aftermath could amount to ethnic cleansing. I would not call this out of the question because I have noticed that there is, at least online, a lot of nihilism and regression back to primitive, survivalist, responses to these perceived threats; the evolutionary adaption that allowed humans to be hypersocial and gave them the gift of reasoning—i.e. the neocortex or outer-most layer of the brain—is being bypassed with these responses. It's regrettable, but very human.

<2> I think tackling online radicalization, as the UK's embattled PM, Theresa May, briefly remarked, is a step in the right direction (despite the objections that may come from net neutrality advocates), but I don't think an online 'campaign' against radicalization goes far enough. The root cause of these heinous crimes is marginalization and alienation. It all begins with marginalization and alienation. There needs to be local, community-based, support programs and social initiatives to prevent marginalization; these need to come from both government and faith communities, and the government programs certainly need to include mental health.

<3>  One particular remedy falls on the Muslim community. Muslims need to stop attending sermons and establishments run by preachers who preach these distorted versions or far-fetched interpretations. Why this is not happening sooner, I have yet to grasp. I imagine it has to do with laziness and culturally-ingrained lack of political enthusiasm from various African and Arab communities. Sooner or later, I figure, they will get moving.

<4>  Finally, non-Muslims really need to try to resist the urge to generalize. They need to be reminded that terrorism is not limited to Islam and hasn't suddenly appeared in the 21st Century out of a void. It has been around for a very long time, as University of Chicago professor Robert Pape pointed out, and in various political and religious contexts. There are Buddhists groups who engaged in terrorism for religious causes. There is the present-day PKK in Turkey; France's right-wing La Cagoule at the outset and during WWII; and Canada's own, now-defunct, FLQ; who all used violence towards political ends—the definition of terrorism. It is inconceivable for 1.3 billion to be held accountable for the actions of a fraction of 'bad apples.' Much in the same way, Catholics are not violent and oppressive, or blameworthy, for the bombings by IRA militants and other religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Protestant unionists; and, further, Protestants are not accountable for the religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Catholics, perpetrated by the Ulster Defense Association militants who are Protestant; nor are Catholics accountable for the same attacks, and assassination of English royal and cousin to Queen Elizabeth II, namely, Lord Mountbatten, perpetrated by the IRA militants. Note that they are politically-motivated because unionists are a political group (they support the preservation of the union of Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales) and religiously motivated because Protestants are a sect and oppose the other sect, Catholics, who account for Irish Republicanism (separation).

Interestingly, at one point in ancient history (around 5-600 AD), there was a school of Murjites (or 'the Postponers'), which was the most lenient school. As you may have imagined from their name, the Murjites believed in postponing any sort of judgment against a person until his/her end of life, when s/he comes before God in the afterlife (N.B.: I am just recalling what they believed; I don't necessarily share those beliefs). Their crux of their teachings is that there is only one judge of a person's deeds or misdeeds, and that judge is God; no human being can take God's role. Murjites, thus, would oppose labeling anyone a 'heretic' and oppose present-day Sharia courts that routinely pass judgment and dole out punishments against convicted 'heretics;' they would oppose violent Jihad because it is, by its nature, judgmental; in essence, they would oppose any act that harms a person in response to their beliefs because it would require judgment. Unfortunately, their influence quickly dwindled when, in later periods (by as early as 8-900 AD, I think), harsher and competing schools gained influence and deemed the Murjites, and their followers, 'heretics' and had the lot of them executed (ironically, in doing so, adherents of those opposing schools passed judgment against the Murjites and inflicted punishment). Apart from deferring judgment, Murjites also believed that any adherent to the faith who began taking steps to carry out a grave sin, such as murder, relinquished his/her status as an adherent.

A disclosure: I am of Muslim heritage and was raised by very lenient Muslim parents; but I identify as an agnostic and don't practice.

So..... Curtail Western freedoms and the problem will go away?  Got ya!  I do not believe that for an instant.  Get rid of the money handlers and the problem will be confined but even then the problem will always be there.  The horse fly is in tent now and it will continue to bite until it is swatted dead or driven out. 
 
Lightguns said:
So..... Curtail Western freedoms and the problem will go away?  Got ya!  I do not believe that for an instant.  Get rid of the money handlers and the problem will be confined but even then the problem will always be there.  The horse fly is in tent now and it will continue to bite until it is swatted dead or driven out.

Friend,

I don't see how you can summarize the five recommendations as curtailing Western freedoms? Only two, arguably, directly implicate freedoms (the first recommendation that sensationalist media self-censor by not explicitly catering to reader vulnerabilities because, in failing to doing so, their catering to vulnerabilities contributes to the problem; and third recommendation that adherents of Islam silence hate-preaching Imams by not giving them an audience--i.e. refusing to attend their sermons). On the second recommendation about the governments combatting online radicalization, net neutrality is not a "Western freedom"; although certain elements of internet usage implicate long-held freedoms such as anonymity, there are competing interests that outweigh maintaining anonymity for the purpose of radicalization.

Everything else I've written there, apart from those recommendations, is just context that well-intentioned and informed individuals need to keep in mind.
 
People seem uncomfortable to point out the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslims. When some kind of attack IS carried out by a non-muslim there seems to almost be relief from certain circles of our scoeity. Muslim attacks however seem to be happening with such frequency that its no big deal unless there's something new, like the airport stabber being Canadian.

The whole situation might almost even be a form of entertainment/daily  thing to  post about to some.
 
Jarnhamar said:
People seem uncomfortable to point out the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslims. When some kind of attack IS carried out by a non-muslim there seems to almost be relief from certain circles of our scoeity. Muslim attacks however seem to be happening with such frequency that its no big deal unless there's something new, like the airport stabber being Canadian.

The whole situation might almost even be a form of entertainment/daily  thing to  post about to some.

Get ready for more Toronto Star stories about strip searches at the US border because they are going to react to this latest incident.  So if you are heading stateside make sure you wear clean underwear......
 
Jarnhamar said:
People seem uncomfortable to point out the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslims. When some kind of attack IS carried out by a non-muslim there seems to almost be relief from certain circles of our scoeity. Muslim attacks however seem to be happening with such frequency that its no big deal unless there's something new, like the airport stabber being Canadian.

The whole situation might almost even be a form of entertainment/daily  thing to  post about to some.

I am strongly against generalizing not only because it's a lapse of reason, but also because of the consequences it would have. But I'm not afraid at all to admit any troubling realities that may exist. Unfortunately, I can't agree with your statement simply because it is impossible to know how many attacks occurred, and of their nature, in every corner of the world, in say, the last two decades. There are also innate biases that have prevented an objective assessment of which attacks constitute "terrorism;" that's one reason, among others, why it is difficult to quantify attacks anywhere in a given time period.

However, I will admit, and I'm not afraid to admit, that among known attacks that have been widely reported since the 1980s, a 'disproportionate number', as you say, of them have been perpetrated by Muslims. Even if I admit this, what does this admission achieve? Are 1.3 billion faith-adherents now accountable for the 50,000 (I'm throwing a liberal estimate) attacks perpetrated by extremists since the 80s? Please. Extremists want you to peddle these half-truths and 'otherize' ordinary members of a society. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy that Daesh and other extremists are waging here, particularly when their perceived/policy enemy refuses to make concessions about the radicalization problem and, in lieu of reasonable concessions, take the easy route of blame and alienating the innocent. The ironies of life are too perplexing sometimes.

The discomfort comes from peddling half-truths or misrepresentations (even if accidental) that have palpable consequences on these communities and, eventually, the communities into which they attempt to integrate. It is not in anyone's national security or personal interest to alienate anyone, for invidious or whatever reasons.
 
Lex Justitia said:
It concerns me that you've cited this dangerous diatribe written by Goldman. He's recalling history for solutions to complex problems and relying on brutes like Phil Sheridan; Sheridan, by all accounts, is brute who subscribes to the primitive view that might makes right. I can find many contemporaries like him: the infamous Donald J. Trump, for one; another is recently-elected GOP congressman Greg Gianforte, who, instead of skillfully navigating difficult questions from journalists as Pierre Elliot Trudeau was known for (par exemple), he physically assaults them and goes on a rant about their tough questions. Trudeau (Sr.) was an admirable statesman; Gianforte is a brute who represents maladapted aggression.

Goldman should be ashamed for advocating brutish and blatantly unlawful tactics. He should be ashamed for recalling and praising tactics by Sheridan, whose strategy to deal with Confederacy snipers would now constitute serious crimes prosecutable under the Rome Statute. Did Goldman forget that pillaging is a war crime, and prosecutable, during wartime—it would be unconscionable to venture that route during peacetime. He should be particularly ashamed for giving the appearance that alienating swaths of peaceful Muslims with denigrating and inhumane tactics that, he thinks, is the silver bullet to our pressing problems, just because deranged Phil Sheridan succeeded in his time; on the contrary, it will—with scant doubt—contribute to the very problem of radicalization, rather than address it. It seems the awakening of the human conscience after the Holocaust has not benefitted him, for he is calling us to regress to Sheridan's level; Sheridan probably knew no bounds and would probably regress further to primordial, medieval pre-Enlightenment and cruelty.

His essay distilled, Goldman seems to think it's entirely reasonable and proper for a teacher to penalize the entire class for the lone thief who refuses to disclose himself and the few classmates who may know of him; there's something profoundly cruel about punishing bystanders, after accusing them of harboring or facilitating the perpetrator, to find the concealed hoodlum among them. I am gobsmacked by his audacity to pen that dangerous idea; I am also concerned that a member of our venerated military cited it rather approvingly.


You are making the mistake that many do of judging earlier centuries and events with 21st century eyes.  They were different times, laws beliefs and values.  Not to mention this war was particularly cruel as many wars are and both sides were going for a full court press.  Sometimes it takes a curb stomping to end the fight as was done to both Germany and Japan in 45.

But the real point I wish to make to you is your alarm at the thought of collective punishment for infractions.  I see you're just dipping your toe into the military pool.  Lex,  get used to the concept.  It is used in our institution to reinforce and enforce rules and objectives.  On course, you could find yourself doing collective pushups because someone fucked up, for example.  The privilege of beer at sea was taken away from the navy because of several unrelated incidents ashore.  Collective punishment has been around and used by the military for a very long time.  Where do you think the term decimation comes from and what it meant? 

Sherman was cruel and hard, yes.  I think he's not as bad as others, such as Daesh or other recent examples.  And, no, I'm not advocating Goldman's suggestions.  Nor am I keen on collective punishment either in application as a supervisor or in subjected to, as in the loss of alcohol privileges.  But it is what it is and where it is, as in, in the institution and therefore I accept it as a reality.
 
jollyjacktar said:
You are making the mistake that many do of judging earlier centuries and events with 21st century eyes.  They were different times, laws beliefs and values.  Not to mention this war was particularly cruel as many wars are and both sides were going for a full court press.  Sometimes it takes a curb stomping to end the fight as was done to both Germany and Japan in 45.

But the real point I wish to make to you is your alarm at the thought of collective punishment for infractions.  I see you're just dipping your toe into the military pool.  Lex,  get used to the concept.  It is used in our institution to reinforce and enforce rules and objectives.  On course, you could find yourself doing collective pushups because someone ****ed up, for example.  The privilege of beer at sea was taken away from the navy because of several unrelated incidents ashore.  Collective punishment has been around and used by the military for a very long time.  Where do you think the term decimation comes from and what it meant? 

Sherman was cruel and hard, yes.  I think he's not as bad as others, such as Daesh or other recent examples.  And, no, I'm not advocating Goldman's suggestions.  Nor am I keen on collective punishment either in application as a supervisor or in subjected to, as in the loss of alcohol privileges.  But it is what it is and where it is, as in, in the institution and therefore I accept it as a reality.

I want to start by thanking you for the heads up and refresher on military culture. I did receive an unheeded warning from an acquaintance whose uncle was an officer in the RF. While I can tolerate it in the military, per se; however, applying this to the civilian population will be a regression of 200 years of enlightenment.

I acknowledge that Sheridan's time was different; hence why I noted that his strategy, while it may have been somewhat acceptable then, would now constitute a prosecutable crime either at wartime or peacetime. The point, indeed, is that in the 150 years that have elapsed since the American Civil War, there was progress with the development of public international law and human rights—most notably, an awakening after the dreadful Holocaust. Perhaps, in the military, I will venture, not much has changed in those 150 years apart from the technology with which wage warfare; the punitive culture, as you have shown me, has not changed; but does mean that a single and probably misgauged (by the general public and lower-ranking military personnel) threat requires a rollback of that awakening in the civilian population—should we now return to the pre-Holocaust slumber? Is it suddenly acceptable to repeat campaigns on par with the Sheridan-style pillaging because of this threat?

If so, I know of no better example of human frailty!
 
Lightguns said:
strip searches at the US border

You can't threaten me with a good time  ;D


Lex Justitia said:
[size=10pt]
I am strongly against generalizing



https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Here's some Islamic attacks in the last 30 days. Almost 1500 killed, over 1500 injured across 29 countries.
You'll have to go to the site and read it yourself, I couldn't cut and paste since it exceeded the length limit.

 
Lex, I too, hope we don't find ourselves in a situation one day where it is total war on the scale of the second world war. 

As for the present plague of fuckheads like Daesh et al, the only ones who can solve this once and for all, is the folks who follow Islam.  They will have to get to a point where enough is enough and stamp it out from within.  Sadly, I don't see this happening in the near future or my children's lifetime.
 
Jarnhamar said:
You can't threaten me with a good time  ;D



https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Here's some Islamic attacks in the last 30 days. Almost 1500 killed, over 1500 injured across 29 countries.
You'll have to go to the site and read it yourself, I couldn't cut and paste since it exceeded the length limit.

[size=10pt]Another problem that I, regrettably, forgot to point out is misleading 'sources' and deliberate disinformation that are rampant online. You can see that the aim is to spread disinformation when the site makes unverifiable claims about the veracity of its work; its 'methodology' page is full of pseudoscience on data collection. On the same page, they even write: "These are not incidents of ordinary crime involving nominal Muslims killing for money or vendetta." How do they know? They certainly don't provide primary or even secondary sources (it's literally just a list with date, location, # of casualties, and a 5-word—15-word max.—description of what apparently transpired. Without primary or secondary sources, how do we know the site's administrators are not merely creating fake entries?

Maybe the reason why reports which appear on the list don't appear in reputable media or sources is actually because the report is entirely fictitious; not because, as the site claims, the reputable media refused to report it for whatever reason, i.e. not being newsworthy. Maybe some reports that appear on the list don't appear in reputable media because they are reports of crime whose motivation cannot be confirmed! Utterly misleading; terrible 'source.'

Please be sensible, my friend. I seriously hope the basis of your views on Islam and radicalization are not premised on that severely lacking database. Never forget that ideologues who have strongly taken up a weak position are willing to spread disinformation to defend that position, and give it a false sense of strength; always try to verify what you read to guard against that.
]/size]
 
[quote author=Lex Justitia]

Another problem that I, regrettably, forgot to point out is misleading 'sources' and deliberate disinformation that are rampant online
[/quote]



Of course, of course. A little researching will probably show most of those entries are fake news stories like the last one they listed.
2017.06.22 Afghanistan Lashkargah 29 60 A suicide car bomb outside a bank lays out thirty customers.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/gunmen-open-fire-inside-afghan-mosque-killing-officials-48201433



Or some kind of attack at an airport in Flint, MI they mention? 5th latest entry? What? Sounds like bullshit to me.




Or entry #38
2017.06.14 Somalia Mogadishu 31 killed 27 injured. Five girls are among dozens slaughtered at a restaurant during a attack that began with a suicide bombing, followed by Islamists hunting down victims at an adjacent hotel.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/car-bomb-targets-restaurant-somalia-mogadishu-170614173930599.html

Can't find any references to this supposed restaurant attack anywhere.



It's going to take me a while to go through the 164 attacks in the last 30 days and debunk them all so please be patient.
 
Jarnhamar said:
Of course, of course. A little researching will probably show most of those entries are fake news stories like the last one they listed.


Or entry #38
Can't find any references to this supposed restaurant attack anywhere.



It's going to take me a while to go through the 164 attacks in the last 30 days and debunk them all so please be patient.

You've picked out conservative handful. That you defend this 'source' concerns me deeply.


I also need to mention some shortcomings in your reasoning. The database and numbers that you have summed up don't actually demonstrate that a majority of Muslims worldwide are extremist or any more violent that any other religious or ethnic group. The reason is that the database doesn't show the number of perpetrators. For all I know (because, as I have just said, I don't know and can't possibly know from that database), a group of forty Muslims perpetrated all of those attacks in that 30-day period. Using that hypothetical, are you going to tell me that 40 is representative of 1.3 billion?

Let's make the hypothetical more realistic. Let's assume one natural person perpetrated each of the 164 attacks in that 30-day period (as the database says). Let's assume it has been that way every month since 1990; that's 89 months as of May. 164 (again, a number from your 'source') attacks for 89 months. Basic arithmetic will yield 14,956 attacks since 1990. Assuming one person perpetrated each, that's 14,956 persons who perpetrated terrorism; is 14,956 a fair representation of 1.3 billion?

Let's make the estimate liberal, let's assume 100 different persons committed each of the 14,956 attacks since 1990—it's a bit of a far-fetched estimate but I'm giving you the benefit—, that leaves us with 1,459,600 persons. Is 1.4 million a fair representation of 1.3 billion? Do you finally see from my perspective? It's a fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction that we are looking at, but apparently it is now acceptable to treat them all the same and live in perpetual fear and hunkered-down from the 'other.' A shame we're here, at this point, after centuries of a variety of 'colors' and 'species' of terrorism.

 
[quote author=Lex Justitia] That you defend this 'source' concerns me deeply.[/quote]
I bet not as much as a "pacifist" joining the military concerns me  ;)


Let's make the hypothetical more realistic. Let's assume one natural person perpetrated each of the 164 attacks in that 30-day period (as the database says). Let's assume it has been that way every month since 1990; that's 89 months as of may. 164 attacks for 89 months. Basic arithmetic will yield 14,956 attacks since 1990. Assuming one person perpetrated each, that's 14,956 persons who perpetrated terrorism; is 14,956 a fair representation of 1.3 billion?

Let's make the estimate liberal, let's assume 100 different persons committed each of the 14,956 attacks since 1990—it's a bit of a far-fetched estimate but I'm giving you the benefit—, that leaves us with 1,459,600 persons. Is 1.4 million a fair representation of 1.3 billion? Do you finally see from my perspective? It's a fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction that we are looking at, but it's apparently it is now acceptable to treat them all the same and live in perpetual fear. A shame we're here, at this point, after centuries of a variety of 'colors' and 'species' of terrorism.[/size][/font]
This is beautiful.  You've proven to me Islam is after all peaceful and the world doesn't have an Islam-inspired problem with increasing acts of terrorism and violence. It's only a fewl bad apples, nothing to worry about. Nothing to see here, move along.
 
Jarnhamar said:
I bet not as much as a "pacifist" joining the military concerns me  ;)

I sense you've said that in jest, but please don't let that concern you; I'd pick up a rifle (after adequate training, needless to say) any day in order to defend you from an immediate threat. But it really does concern me how misconceptions and misgivings on this topic shape your opinion about 1.3 billion people, and it concerns me because, in part, it would probably reflect poorly on the military if such anti-Muslim milieu were publicized; particularly so if it was the result of lousy sources!

I also would appreciate it if you treated my analysis with less irony and an appropriate level of seriousness; especially in light of the difficult and somber climate we're in right now.

Off to get some much-needed rest.
 
Lex Justitia said:
[size=10pt]I sense you've said that in jest, but please don't let that concern you; I'd pick up a rifle (after adequate training, needless to say) any day in order to defend you from an immediate threat.

Then I'm sorry but you are not a pacifist thought it's good to hear you say you would defend me.
I would suggest maybe you're imagining  yourself as some romanticized poet-warrior scholar,  or some such. If you were a pacifist as per the definition the you wouldn't raise a hand to defend me if I was being attacked.



But it really does concern me how misconceptions and misgivings on this topic shape your opinion about 1.3 billion people, and it concerns me because, in part, it would probably reflect poorly on the military if such anti-Muslim milieu were publicized; particularly so if it was the result of lousy sources!
Let's test the lousy sources. Name me three news agencies you consider as credible (sorry al Jazeera and abcnews is out) and I'll see if they conve the "bogus" stories on the site I provide. 

I also would appreciate it if you treated my analysis with less irony and an appropriate level of seriousness; especially in light of the difficult and somber climate we're in right now.
You haven't given me a reason to treat you seriously yet.

Honestly if you feel like engaging me about Islam please do a site search for jarnhamar+AbdullahD.  You'll find 300 pages of us arguing the points you plan on bringing up.

Speaking of which...

Off to get some much-needed rest.
That sounds an awful lot like how someone else on here who debates Islam signs off  after arguing....
Patterns eh  ;)
 
A few more tidbits on the most recent U.S. incident, via Michigan media:
... Ftouhi, 50, is a Canadian and Tunisian dual-citizen who came to the United States legally through Lake Champlain, New York, on June 16.

On Wednesday, Ftouhi showed up at Flint Bishop Airport without a plane ticket and entered the airport, Gelios said.

"We're trying to develop more as to his timeline and where he went after he entered the United States in Lake Champlain, New York," Gelios said. "We have no information to suggest a wider plot, but it's certainly very early in the investigation. At this time, we view him as a lone wolf." ...
(source)
... Wearing an orange Genesee County Jail jumpsuit and spit guard face mask, Amor M. Ftouhi, the man authorities say attacked a police officer at Bishop Airport appeared in Flint U.S. District Court late on Wednesday, June 21, for an initial appearance.

Before the brief proceedings began, Ftouhi's public defender explained to U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephanie Dawkins Davis that his client's English may be difficult to understand as he primarily speaks Arabic and French.

A judge granted prosecutors' request to detain Ftouhi in the Genesee County Jail until a detention hearing next week.
(source)
 
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