Israel strikes Hard at Hamas In Gaza- Dec/ 27/ 2008

[Rodders]

You dont have to personaly launch rockets to be involved. Allowing it to happen is also being involved.

Okay.

Would you then agree that any nation's people who support as a majority the actions of their government are similarly accountable for their government's actions?

 

[Brad Sallows]

>So you really think they are just poor innocent civilians, they just happen to be the ones who voted them in and rally around their Banner and cheer them on as they launch their Rockets.

By "innocent" I mean the civilians who are not contributing materially to belligerent action.  An example of a "not innocent" - hence targetable - civilian is one who works in war industry or establishments.  In an irregularly fought war the line is harder to find - what, really, are the security forces and facilities of Hamas?  How does one distinguish between a proper university and a training/indoctrination camp?

 

[aesop081]

Does thinking civilian deaths are unfortunate make me a bleeding heart? Apparently it does here.

Maybe if you understood the realities of the conflict you would stop lamenting Israel for killing your so-called "uninvolved civillians" and instead protest the fact that Hamas hides itself, and conducts its attacks from, within those civillians.

 

[Rodders]

For the final time. My only position was that I don't agree with someone lumping an entire culture, regardless of age, into the same group as those who are responsible for the violence. THAT is intolerant!

So if that position offends so many people here, than I guess I'll just have to accept that.

 

[Rodders]

Maybe if you understood the realities of the conflict you would stop lamenting Israel for killing your so-called "uninvolved civillians" and instead protest the fact that Hamas hides itself, and conducts its attacks from, within those civillians.

Why should I stop lamenting Israel? I think the deaths of their civilians is EQUALLY as unfortunate. Hence my (repeatedly) stated position of supporting their actions.

Again I ask, find one reference to where I've offered even the most remote support of Hamas. You can't because I don't.

Unless you also assert that NO Palestinian (man, woman, child, infant) is an innocent casualty, then I don't understand your difficulty with comprehending my point.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not from the most PC site on the web

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/12/palestinian-girl-loses-family-in.html#linksGatewayPundit

Palestinian Girl Loses Family In Bombing... Blames Hamas! (Video)

Palestinian Media Watch captured this clip of a young girl who lost family members in the bombing raids this weekend.
She blames "Hamas is the cause of all wars"."
Here is the video:

PMW reported:


A Palestinian girl whose family members was killed yesterday in Gaza after an Israeli air attack was interviewed today on Palestinian TV and placed the blame for the war on Hamas:

[Girl] "We were sleeping 7 girls in the room. We were asleep and didn't know what was happening. In the morning all the bricks were on top of my head, and the heads of all my sisters. My 4 year old sister next to me was dead."

[Interviewer] "How many were you?"

[Girl] "Seven.In the other room were my mother, my father, my yonger brother and another sister, who is 13 days old. I say, Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars."
[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) Dec. 29, 2008]

I don't think I need to prove my credentials to anybody on this site -  and, for the record, I do support Israel's actions, I do not support Hamas - and, frankly I accept that the above link could be out and out propaganda - don't care.

In amongst all the rabid Grannies and teenage Hoodlums and middleaged Fanatics with grand delusions there are also others that "get it" as far as we are concerned, but just can't get out of their situation.

Slinging insults helps nobody.

 

[tomahawk6]

What is absolutely amazing to me is that lack of concern for Israeli citizens killed by Hamas rockets. Not one thread here about how terrible it is that innocent Israeli civilians were killed. Plenty of threads when Israel gets fed up and strikes back against Hamas/Hizbollah aggression. Plenty of concern for Palestinian/arab civilian deaths and opinions about Israeli proportionality or the lack of it.

 

[Rodders]

But that's what I don't understand. What is it that you disagree with so strongly about my initial post???

All you've done is attack me on an assumption you've already made about me. Unless I'm mistaken, it sounds like you've decided I support Hamas because I find Palestinian civilian deaths to be unfortunate. Is this the case?

 

[Shec]

Fair ball staff.  Rodders,  I stand by my statement given my point that the ethos of any culture that lionizes such "mighty warriors" , upon whom we seem to agree are somewhat less than worthy of respect,  does not earn itself a lot of tolerance.  Tell me where else does one see a culture that dances in the streets and celebrates the murder of innocents as the Pals have done time and time again?  

 

[Rodders]

What is absolutely amazing to me is that lack of concern for Israeli citizens killed by Hamas rockets. Not one thread here about how terrible it is that innocent Israeli civilians were killed. Plenty of threads when Israel gets fed up and strikes back against Hamas/Hizbollah aggression. Plenty of concern for Palestinian/arab civilian deaths and opinions about Israeli proportionality or the lack of it.

Don't know about others, but I have expressed several times that I equally lament the loss of Israeli lives as much as I do any other.

Difference is, no one here has been flippant about the Israeli civilians.

 

[Rodders]

Fair ball staff.  Rodders,  I stand by my statement given my point that the ethos of any culture that lionizes such "mighty warriors" , upon whom we seem to agree are somewhat less than worthy of respect,  does not earn itself a lot of tolerance.  Tell me where else does one see a culture that dances in the streets and celebrates the murder of innocents as the Pals have done time and time again?  

And do those people represent the absolute entirety of the Palestinian people? Does every single Palestinian man, woman and child do a dance when an Israeli is killed?
Do any Israelis take satisfaction in the death of Palestinians? Probably very few, but I'll wager both my kidneys that they exist.

To blanket condemn an entire people is a very dangerous attitude, and has been responsible for a lot of ugliness in the world. That's not a veiled insult, I assure you. Right and wrong are a matter of which side you're on, and for any Palestinian to condemn/hate all Jews or Israelis is repugnant and equally worthy of my condemnation.
But I won't accept that it's only wrong for certain groups, and not for others to think this way.

 

[1feral1]

And do those people represent the absolute entirety of the Palestinian people? Does every single Palestinian man, woman and child do a dance when an Israeli is killed?
Do any Israelis take satisfaction in the death of Palestinians? Probably very few, but I'll wager both my kidneys that they exist.

To blanket condemn an entire people is a very dangerous attitude, and has been responsible for a lot of ugliness in the world. That's not a veiled insult, I assure you. Right and wrong are a matter of which side you're on, and for any Palestinian to condemn/hate all Jews or Israelis is repugnant and equally worthy of my condemnation.
But I won't accept that it's only wrong for certain groups, and not for others to think this way.

I don't see any Israelis buring Palestinian flags on the news, however the past 72 hrs I have seen Israeli flags along with the US flag burned by a very finatical crowd of Paletinians and their supporters throughout the arab world.

 

[Rodders]

I don't see any Israelis buring Palestinian flags on the news, however the past 72 hrs I have seen Israeli flags along with the US flag burned by a very finatical crowd of Paletinians and their supporters throughout the arab world.

And ... ?

Is it therefore logical to conclude that because we've only seen such demonstrations/action by Palestinians/Arabs that ALL Palestinians/Arabs hold exactly the same view?

Why is my belief that there is such a thing as an "innocent" Palestinian, or the fact that I equally lament the loss of Palestinian AND Israeli civilians cause such a disapproving response here? That's not an assertion, THAT'S a question!

 

[Kat Stevens]

What alternative do you suggest then, Rodders?  What is Israel to do in response to indiscriminate rocket attacks into their civilian neighbourhoods?  If you were the Israeli PM, what's your response to repeated attacks?  And in order to appease your indignation, I lament ANY death of innocents, no matter what they eat, what they believe, or their skin pigment.

 

[Shec]

And do those people represent the absolute entirety of the Palestinian people? Does every single Palestinian man, woman and child do a dance when an Israeli is killed?
Do any Israelis take satisfaction in the death of Palestinians? Probably very few, but I'll wager both my kidneys that they exist.

To blanket condemn an entire people is a very dangerous attitude, and has been responsible for a lot of ugliness in the world. That's not a veiled insult, I assure you. Right and wrong are a matter of which side you're on, and for any Palestinian to condemn/hate all Jews or Israelis is repugnant and equally worthy of my condemnation.
But I won't accept that it's only wrong for certain groups, and not for others to think this way.

 

This enmity transcends the political reality of the 20th century.  The Palestinians are quite literally the Philistines of the Biblical era, indeed that is the etymology of the name.  That makes both parties natural enemies in a war that, like it or not, will never end.  That being the case David is still slaying Goliath and I admit that I am on David's side.  If you wish to play Thought Police and condemn me for that, go ahead.

 

[Rodders]

What alternative do you suggest then, Rodders?  What is Israel to do in response to indiscriminate rocket attacks into their civilian neighbourhoods?  If you were the Israeli PM, what's your response to repeated attacks?

Do people actually read replies from others here, or do they just assume?

For the last time, I support Israel's actions! I've said so many times!!!

 

[Kat Stevens]

Okay then, and I've already said I'm sad people died, you win.  Can we all go home now?

Do people actually read replies from others here, or do they just assume?

For the last time, I support Israel's actions! I've said so many times!!!

 

[Rodders]

 

This enmity transcends the political reality of the 20th century.  The Palestinians are quite literally the Philistines of the Biblical era, indeed that is the name.  That makes both parties natural enemies in a war that, like it or not, will never end.  That being the case David is still slaying Goliath and I admit that I am on David's side.  If you wish to play Thought Police and condemn me for that, go ahead.

Um ... how are the Palestinians representative of Goliath? I should say in this instance, the roles are reversed.

If Israel was so inclined, they could steamroll their way across Gaza, wiping them out completely. Hamas does not have that capability.

Having said that (as I seem to be required to repeat myself ad nauseam here), I support Israel's response. I just don't take a flippant attitude to the death of any civilians.

That's all.

Have a nice evening

 

[Kirkhill]

Source

Kat, in fairness, this is how he opened his side of the discussion

First off, I don't fault Israel for its actions, and I think they are justified. Hamas was killing it's civilians, so Israel has every right to defend it's territory and it's people.

Unfortunately Rodders, when you wade in with an opening line of "you pi$$ me off", you are more than likely to be greeted in kind.

These guys, and women, round here are probably a whole lot more familiar than you with the concept of civilians in a war zone - and the consequences.  That is certainly true of Overwatch Downunder.

 

[Rodders]

IMHO opinion, the majority hate Israel (oh, and the west too for supporting them), yes. It is common knwoledge that many arab nations hate Israel and want them destroyed.

I am now beginning to sense there is an agenda you have on here, and your message is getting stronger, so before I end up getting fired up, I am bowing out.

You win.

I know where I stand, and I am beginning to know what your up to.

Seen your kind on here all too often. Again, an empty promise from you, you promised to fill out your profile, still nothing. Remember Rodders, its your credibility on here, not ours, and you only get one chance at a first impression.

Enjoy your freedom as you eat your greasy pizza tonight. I wonder how many French, Dutch, and German 'innocent' citizens paid for it.

OWDU
Veteran

EDITed for spelling and clarity

I do not have an agenda, and I know the "kind" you refer to. I am not one of them.

I made a simple statement about not appreciating a flippant attitude towards the death of civilians. That was all I ever said! Several people (yourself included) disagreed with my position, and made assumed extrapolations about my supposed position and politics.

It is interesting that no one has told me why it is so improper of me to hold the aforementioned position. Because aside from my repeatedly stating my support for Israel, that is the only point I have made here.

Good evening to you sir