Kilts and pants?

[Pusser]

Any rank can get mess kit, you are paying for it out of your own money.  While normally only people that have reached the rank of Sgt get it I have know some guys that got it to be married in.

The proper etiquette is that mess kits are evening wear, so it is only correct to wear mess kit if the wedding is in the evening (i.e. after 1800).  If the ceremony takes place in the morning or afternoon, the correct dress is 1 or 1A. You can change into mess kit for the reception if it occurs after 1800.

Having said this, there are certainly many examples where people have gone against these social guidelines.  They are only guidelines after all(coxswains/RSMs rarely conduct dress patrols at weddings).  Although I sometimes lament  :'( the way our society has relaxed (i.e. chosen to ignore out of some misguided theory about "modernizing") many of the old rules.  I once saw pictures of a guy wearing naval mess kit at an afternoon wedding (mistake #1), with a sword (huge mistake #2) that was hooked up (bordering on unforgivable sin #3)! 

 

[dapaterson]

No, there  is no naval tartan.  No, kilts are not authorized for wear with naval mess kit.  This doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.  It is not uncommon to see naval officers wearing their family tartan kilts with their mess jackets.  Since our mess jackets are cut short (similar to a Bonny Prince Charlie), it actually works with a kilt.  As with the kilt, their is no common pattern for sporrans, hose or sgian dubhs either.

Well, someone is selling a "Royal Canadian Navy Tartan" - look at http://www.tartanhousecanada.com/ROYAL-CANADIAN-NAVY-tartan-fabric-65-polyester-35-p/rcnpv.htm

And assuming there isn't a Maritime Command Tartan, it certainly sounds like an endeavour to pursue for some significant milestone.  And since we just missed the centennial, I guess it can wait until the bicentennial in 2110...

 

[Danjanou]

Ah yes...I remember hearing Mr. MacDonald complain bitterly about the lighter weight tartan that everyone seems to be making kilts out of these days.

Noticed that when I had one made up for my wedding, just didn't seem to have the heft of my old issue horse blanket. 8)

Now what was that comment earlier re alluding to going regimental being optional?  :rage:

 

[Neill McKay]

I once saw pictures of a guy wearing naval mess kit at an afternoon wedding (mistake #1), with a sword (huge mistake #2) that was hooked up (bordering on unforgivable sin #3)!

I've seen such a picture as well (maybe the same one).  The world wonders.

Well, someone is selling a "Royal Canadian Navy Tartan" - look at http://www.tartanhousecanada.com/ROYAL-CANADIAN-NAVY-tartan-fabric-65-polyester-35-p/rcnpv.htm

That's the one I mentioned above.

Is anyone familiar enough with the organization that regulates such things to be able to find out how official this is?

 

[Pusser]

If there is an official RCN tartan, then I stand corrected.  However, the website given above shows an example of a wool/poly blend manufactured in China!  What self respecting Scot would wear anything not made of wool (except maybe Sheena Easton in a vinyl jumpsuit)?  If it ain't scrrratchy it's crrrap!

I believe this website: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/ (the official tartan registry) may be able to solve the mystery, but I can't query it right now.  I  can get on the website, but the firewall won't let me search it.

 

[xena]

Is anyone familiar enough with the organization that regulates such things to be able to find out how official this is?

There is no organization that regulates such things.  Sorry.  The closest you'll find is the Scottish Tartan Authority.

http://www.tartansauthority.com/

They REGISTER tartans that people create, but they do not REGULATE them - it's free market capitalism.  With only a handful of exceptions (there are a VERY few modern tartans that are protected by trademark law - eg. the Balmoral Tartan that is privately owned by the British Royal Family!), people can wear any tartan they please.  The idea of having to belong to a certain clan, or family, in order to have the "right" to do so was a marketing ploy of the Sobieski Brothers who authored a rather dubious book on the subject in the Victorian Era.

Now what was that comment earlier re alluding to going regimental being optional?  :rage:

I don't think it was meant referring to uniform.  Outside of uniform, one may wear the kilt any way one pleases.  There are only rules when worn as part of a military uniform.  Civvies may be worn any way that keeps you comfortable, happy, and not arrested for indecent exposure.  ;D  Kilts included.

For an amazing amount of non-military kilt related info, please feel free to peruse the following website:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The proper etiquette is that mess kits are evening wear, so it is only correct to wear mess kit if the wedding is in the evening (i.e. after 1800).  If the ceremony takes place in the morning or afternoon, the correct dress is 1 or 1A. You can change into mess kit for the reception if it occurs after 1800.

Having said this, there are certainly many examples where people have gone against these social guidelines.  They are only guidelines after all(coxswains/RSMs rarely conduct dress patrols at weddings).  Although I sometimes lament  :'( the way our society has relaxed (i.e. chosen to ignore out of some misguided theory about "modernizing") many of the old rules.  I once saw pictures of a guy wearing naval mess kit at an afternoon wedding (mistake #1), with a sword (huge mistake #2) that was hooked up (bordering on unforgivable sin #3)!

Tuxedos (which Mess Kit denotes militarily) are also classed as evening wear, more correctly black tie, which has socially replaced white tie. Black tie is traditionally worn after 18:00, or after sundown in the winter months. However most weddings have had tuxedos in one form or another, for ages, and many before 18:00 hrs. I would never lament a person that has spent over $1000.00 dollars to wear their own mess kit on such a special occasion, based on some out of date and hoity toity etiquette.

To wish a return of old ettiquette for something like this would just prove a person to be a 'harumph, harumph, see here old boy' fud. ;D

 

[dapaterson]

To wish a return of old ettiquette for something like this would just prove a person to be a 'harumph, harumph, see here old boy' fud. ;D

I believe the term is fuddy-duddy.

 

[xena]

Harrumph!  <ruffles paper in a vigorous fashion>  Hear, hear old chap!  Quite so!

For a while, at least, in the civilian world, all formal events were dinners, hence the belief that all formal wear was evening wear.  Simply not so, old chap.  <ruffles paper once more, and goes back to reading...>

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I believe the term is fuddy-duddy.

again with the more formal :facepalm:

 

[Neill McKay]

I believe this website: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/ (the official tartan registry) may be able to solve the mystery, but I can't query it right now.  I  can get on the website, but the firewall won't let me search it.

No RCN tartan there, but there are three RCAF ones.

 

[Danjanou]

I don't think it was meant referring to uniform.  Outside of uniform, one may wear the kilt any way one pleases.  There are only rules when worn as part of a military uniform.  Civvies may be worn any way that keeps you comfortable, happy, and not arrested for indecent exposure.  ;D  Kilts included.

For an amazing amount of non-military kilt related info, please feel free to peruse the following website:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/

Still sacrilege. I was told one never leaves the Regimental Family ergo one should always be "Regimental."

You finish your paper, I'll go fire up the outrage bus.

 

[xena]

I'll go fire up the outrage bus.

I thought that was VOR'd a while back...

 

[Pusser]

Tuxedos (which Mess Kit denotes militarily) are also classed as evening wear, more correctly black tie, which has socially replaced white tie. Black tie is traditionally worn after 18:00, or after sundown in the winter months. However most weddings have had tuxedos in one form or another, for ages, and many before 18:00 hrs. I would never lament a person that has spent over $1000.00 dollars to wear their own mess kit on such a special occasion, based on some out of date and hoity toity etiquette.

To wish a return of old ettiquette for something like this would just prove a person to be a 'harumph, harumph, see here old boy' fud. ;D

I believe a tuxedo (black tie) is a relatively recent addition to fashion and is actually considered semi-formal.  Mess kit is a step above (i.e. formal) and equates to to white tie (despite usually being worn with a tie that is actually black).  White tie is normally worn with a dinner jacket (as in most mess kits) or tails.  Tuxedo jackets don't fall into either category.  As to the rest, you're right, you can wear anything you like to your own party.  I was just pointing out the standard etiquette, which of course, is subject to change.  What I truly lament is the situations where change goes too far, such as the young gentlemen I once observed at a formal ball in a turtleneck, black jeans and doc martins.  At least everything was black, but it was still inappropriate.

 

[Danjanou]

I thought that was VOR'd a while back...

Nope we cobbled together our pocket change and with the new Cdn Dollar vs Pound Sterling exchange rate managed to get a relatively new one. We're also optioning a long term lease on a Dakota to share with the Walten Commando rapid response team.  8)

 

[Neill McKay]

I believe a tuxedo (black tie) is a relatively recent addition to fashion and is actually considered semi-formal.  Mess kit is a step above (i.e. formal) and equates to to white tie (despite usually being worn with a tie that is actually black).  White tie is normally worn with a dinner jacket (as in most mess kits) or tails.  Tuxedo jackets don't fall into either category.

If we want to get right into it, mess dress corresponds to white tie which is otherwise known as formal dress (or evening dress).

Mess undress corresponds to black tie, also called semi-formal dress.  A tuxedo jacket is a dinner jacket; so is the white jacket sometimes worn with black tie in summer or warm climates.  The tuxedo is of early-to-mid 20th century origin.

In the Canadian navy there is no mess undress with the arguable exception of the concert dress worn by members of the Stad and Naden bands.  Mess dress is used for "white tie" and "black tie" occasions.

In practice, white tie is worn very infrequently.  The vast majority of men will never wear anything more formal than black tie, and even then only occasionally if at all.  In describing the dress for an event any use of the words "formal" or "casual", with or without "semi-" or other qualifiers, is a recipe for confusion.  If you say "formal", real purists will wear white tie, men who care about such things but accept the reality in which we're living might wear black tie, and most of those who either don't know or don't care will wear a suit.  A certain segment of the population will be so far gone as to wear a blazer and whatever colour of pants, or a sweater, or a collared shirt with or without a logo embroidered on it -- depending on their particular perspective on formality.

What I truly lament is the situations where change goes too far, such as the young gentlemen I once observed at a formal ball in a turtleneck, black jeans and doc martins.  At least everything was black, but it was still inappropriate.

Fully agreed.

 

[Brutus]

A note of clarification on the points regarding the trews in the Seaforth Highlanders (and likely other Highland units).

Trews are worn by Sgt and above, but there is nothing written down that says Jrs cannot wear them. The fact they don't is likely a matter of cost (Jrs traditionaly being lighter in the wallter) and supply (the Jrs being typically triple or more in size in membership). There have been a few occasions wear Jrs have worn Trews in the past, for specific reasons.

Trews, in our Unit, are worn at Mess functions (Sgt's & WO's and the Officer's Mess) when Ladies are not present.

The Jrs do in fact have Mess Dress - it is short sleeve order with the green Belt (lovatt hose, brown purse, etc.). IIRC correctly, it is up to each Unit to set Mess Dress, within certain guidelines, and approved by the CO.

 

[dapaterson]

In practice, white tie is worn very infrequently.  The vast majority of men will never wear anything more formal than black tie, and even then only occasionally if at all.  In describing the dress for an event any use of the words "formal" or "casual", with or without "semi-" or other qualifiers, is a recipe for confusion.  If you say "formal", real purists will wear white tie, men who care about such things but accept the reality in which we're living might wear black tie, and most of those who either don't know or don't care will wear a suit.  A certain segment of the population will be so far gone as to wear a blazer and whatever colour of pants, or a sweater, or a collared shirt with or without a logo embroidered on it -- depending on their particular perspective on formality.

And there are those for who "formal" means "I'll wear pants."  Shirt optional.  Like this fine collection of upstanding citizens.

 

[xena]

Nope we cobbled together our pocket change and with the new Cdn Dollar vs Pound Sterling exchange rate managed to get a relatively new one. We're also optioning a long term lease on a Dakota to share with the Walten Commando rapid response team.  8)

Excellent!  I look forward to many new outings!

And there are those for who "formal" means "I'll wear pants."

Well, that may be true, but the kilt is still a better option.  IMHO, of course. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

On the topic of mess kit, I recently saw a naval officer wearing a mess dress and a kilt.  Assuming that's allowed, is there a specific navy tartan (like RCAF tartan) or is it up to the wearer?

No, there  is no naval tartan.  No, kilts are not authorized for wear with naval mess kit.  This doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.  It is not uncommon to see naval officers wearing their family tartan kilts with their mess jackets.  Since our mess jackets are cut short (similar to a Bonny Prince Charlie), it actually works with a kilt.  As with the kilt, their is no common pattern for sporrans, hose or sgian dubhs either.

While the wearing of a kilt with Canadian naval mess kit is not authorized (though sometimes occurring and perhaps even being tolerated as long as a round of drinks is paid as penance), it appears that the RN did accept the practice.  Whether RN dress regulations were actually changed or if the proposal survived past Jock Slater's tenure as First Sea Lord is unclear.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/navy-lets-scots-officers-wear-kilt-1.459879

Navy lets Scots officers wear kilt

By ROB ROBERTSON
28 Mar 1996

Scottish Naval officers last night raised their glasses in celebration after being told that for the first time they would be officially allowed to wear kilts in their wardrooms. Throughout the years officers of Scottish descent were ``fined'' a round of port for wearing their kilts socially in the Mess without permission.

However, in a wide-ranging review of naval uniform, which also announced a reprieve for the Royal Navy's famous bell-bottomed trousers, the kilt has been deemed a suitable form of dress. The Scottish ancestry of the present First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Jock Slater, who was born and educated in Edinburgh, is believed to have had a significant role in winning recognition for the kilt. The Navy board said the practice of wearing the kilt was ``harmless, colourful and supported by several very senior officers''.

Regulations are to be changed to allow entitled officers to wear not only Scottish kilts but also Irish, Welsh, Cornish and Manx tartans in the Mess. Commodore Eric Thompson, director of the HM Naval Base on the Clyde said he welcomed the official recognition of the kilt. ``It will be a great relief to many officers of Celtic descent that they will no longer be fined a round of port for being improperly dressed in the Mess. ``I do not, however, propose a definition for the requirements for undergarments.''

A senior naval officer said last night the move would make life easier for many Scots officers serving around the world. He said: ``Although there was never an official ban, the kilt was frowned upon in some quarters. ``Despite that, we still wore our kilts despite the fact it cost us endless rounds of port. We will be raising our glasses in the Mess dressed in our kilts to celebrate the change.'' Scottish National Party chief executive Mike Russell welcomed the decision. ``When there is an independent Scottish navy, wearing the kilt will be compulsory,'' he joked.

The official recognition of the kilt is one of several changes contained in the Review of Royal Navy Clothing, led by Commander David Hobbs, project officer at the Defence Clothing and Textile Agency. Some changes announced yesterday will save the Navy money. They include the decision to end the tradition of two patterns of naval jacket, one for officers and one for senior ratings. They will now all wear the officer-style jacket. Navy-blue trousers for officers and senior ratings will be identical and a new raincoat will be designed to be worn by all ranks. Trials are to be launched to replace the gold in officers' sleeve lace and on their caps with a synthetic material.