Leave Policy – Christmas / Holidays [Merged]

[armyvern]

Max,

I can assure you that certain functions require specialized courses and authorities; some are even trade specific and can not be delegated down ... contraire to your statement. Some of us also work in operational 48hr NTM Units. Many posns are "one ofs" - perhaps you do not understand that one on means exactly that - one of. My Tfc tech can not delegate down signing off of a hazmat carf for transport on an aircraft for example to an op location that is departing immediately. Just one of many situations that are routine where I am at.

I can also assure you that that fact has nothing to do with the crackberry era ... I had to call in LPO authorities (for example) MANY times while on DST to sign for AOG and/or IOR procurement to occur.

Years ago, we'd have all kinds of duty pers sitting at their desk or linked in by pagers after hours. Now we have fewer pers actually being required to stand duties.

I don't expect a Duty WO or Duty O will be delegated down authority to 32, 33, or 34 anytime soon (just as one example) because that is simply against TB regulations.

We don't all work in perfect worlds with redundant personnel sitting around with all the quals to do all necessary tasks that hit us constantly. That duty person would then simply end up recalling all of us in to the workplace to exercise the authority on-site - this blackberry world allows us to do that from "wherever, whenever" to make things happen.

Thanks for looking out for me, but no thanks. I'll stick with my crackberry thank you very much.


(For Moe:  Yeah, but as you've already posted in this thread - you leave work every Friday at lunch time in compensation ... while not on leave. There's this old saying: "pick your poison"  ).

 

[PMedMoe]

(For Moe:  Yeah, but as you've already posted in this thread - you leave work every Friday at lunch time in compensation ... while not on leave. There's this old saying: "pick your poison"  ).

I wasn't using my being on duty while on leave to excuse my actions now, just as an example that it does indeed happen, contrary to what others think (or have/haven't experienced).

As far as my leaving "early", I do PT on my own time and only take about 20 minutes for lunch daily.  Until one of my supervisors tells me otherwise, I will continue to leave at the time I do. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

Max,

Many posns are "one ofs" - perhaps you do not understand that one on means exactly that - one of. My Tfc tech can not delegate down signing off of a hazmat carf for transport on an aircraft for example to an op location that is departing immediately. Just one of many situations that are routine where I am at.

I don't buy that....  The course/qual is SO cosmic that only 1 gifted individual can have it?  I don't think so. 

I don't expect a Duty WO or Duty O will be delegated down authority to 32, 33, or 34 anytime soon (just as one example) because that is simply against TB regulations.

There are more than 1 guy/gal allowed to sign section 32/33/34s in a unit...

this blackberry world allows us to do that from "wherever, whenever" to make things happen.

At the expense of very valuable quality of life to the members.  Unsat.  I get it, it is useful for some stuff.  Not for being able to reach you 24/7 for whatever routine task.

We don't all work in perfect worlds with redundant personnel sitting around with all the quals to do all necessary tasks that hit us constantly. That duty person would then simply end up recalling all of us in to the workplace to exercise the authority on-site

Neither do I, but we (as a unit) learnt to live without some people and wait until they are back to accomplish tasks that are not an emergency or an absolute operational necessity.

Thanks for looking out for me, but no thanks. I'll stick with my crackberry thank you very much.

I don't mind people that do that to themselves, although I believe that there is a time and place for Blackberries, I also think it has gone too far.  If you are willing to be on that quasi 24/7/365(6) shift with your BB, by all mean...  But don't complain that you are on the "leash".  Until your boss actually orders you to have the device 24/7 on and ready to come in to work... Then it's an other discussion... About leadership.

 

[armyvern]

I wasn't using my being on duty while on leave to excuse my actions now, just as an example that it does indeed happen, contrary to what others think (or have/haven't experienced).

As far as my leaving "early", I do PT on my own time and only take about 20 minutes for lunch daily.  Until one of my supervisors tells me otherwise, I will continue to leave at the time I do. 

I wasn't using you as a specific example in my original post although I did use your trade (and PAOs) as examples of small, specialized cells of people.

Either way, it's neither here nor there.

I eagerly await the day though when we see a thread started on this site by someone "complaining about the extra perks or time off they're getting". I'm not holding my breath waiting though. If there's one thing that hasn't changed in the CF during my career, it's the fact that bitching by the troops will occur always when they believe they've been shafted a day of their leave etc, but they sure as hell don't bitch when they get freebee time off nor do they say, "but the leave manual and regulations say you must fill out a leave pass for me for that day if I am to be absent".

Suspect it will be the same 25 years from now too.

 

[armyvern]

I don't buy that....  The course/qual is SO cosmic that only 1 gifted individual can have it?  I don't think so. 

There are more than 1 guy/gal allowed to sign section 32/33/34s in a unit...

At the expense of very valuable quality of life to the members.  Unsat.  I get it, it is useful for some stuff.  Not for being able to reach you 24/7 for whatever routine task.

Neither do I, but we (as a unit) learnt to live without some people and wait until they are back to accomplish tasks that are not an emergency or an absolute operational necessity.

I don't mind people that do that to themselves, although I believe that there is a time and place for Blackberries, I also think it has gone too far.  If you are willing to be on that quasi 24/7/365(6) shift with your BB, by all mean...  But don't complain that you are on the "leash".  Until your boss actually orders you to have the device 24/7 on and ready to come in to work... Then it's an other discussion... About leadership.

Come on down Max and be our Duty O instead of an asshat.

You can sit in my posn answering to the CO, CANOSCOM HQ and the Comptroller about all the stuff you're procuring with your budget, or for an International Op with their budget. Yes, more than I have those sections, but I can't procure on their budget any more than they can on mine. Neither can yours!! Word up.  I also oversee the Regiment and QM budgets (not just SCAs) for which they have no delegated authorities. None. Nor are they the Loggie Snr Tech or trade advisors, so they can't decide who is deploying at the last minute (mere hours to come in and actually fly away - in the middle of the night) onto Op Close-CMi etc. Amongst many other things. I know my job, you obviously don't. You want me to trust you to do it though if you're the Duty pers? Not a chance.

Come on down.

Do that to myself? I obviously did that to myself by doing a good job and getting promoted to my current rank level and posted into a on-of posn. We do it to ourselves? Freakin' laughable statement that is --- and very uninformed. I see you are not yet quite in one of those on-of posns. Perhaps some more TI or rank is required first.

 

[PMedMoe]

If there's one thing that hasn't changed in the CF during my career, it's the fact that bitching by the troops will occur always when they believe they've been shafted a day of their leave etc

The original post in the thread was regarding someone with a signed leave pass who had plans to go home and was then assigned a duty in the middle of their leave.  Not someone who got "shafted a day".  Then it evolved into the usual apples/oranges thread.

 

[armyvern]

The original post in the thread was regarding someone with a signed leave pass who had plans to go home and was then assigned a duty in the middle of their leave.  Not someone who got "shafted a day".  Then it evolved into the usual apples/oranges thread.

I know what it was. I posted that the above scenario was bullshit a couple years ago when that post was first put up.  My further comments are to the 'down the drain' posts that have since occurred.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Duty on leave - oh well. If you were on Annual then indeed you should get the day back. Duty in the middle of leave sucks but it is a condition of life in the military.

As for Blackberries, a few years back our Commander issued direction that the use of Blackberries after hours was to be restricted to bone fide emergencies. Blackberries are terrible tools for most military folks. When travelling we should trust our subordinates to handle business in our stead and after hours the use of a Blackberry should be connected to saving the Earth from an Asteroid. In any case, Blackberry staff work leads to half-measures.

 

[brihard]

Duty in the middle of leave sucks but it is a condition of life in the military.

Nine times out of ten that's a cop out to administrative laziness on someone's part. Enough organizations make it work pretty flawlessly - not necessarily to the tune of everyone getting the exact blocks they want, but at least not having block leave chopped - that I'm loath to believe that it need happen in any but exceptional cases. Knowing that a duty schedule will impact leave availability, creating that schedule before crafting a block leave matrix ought to be SOP.

Liability to getting jerked around should not normalize that as a fact of life, particularly on things like chunks of leave...

 

[aesop081]

Duty in the middle of leave sucks but it is a condition of life in the military.

Re-read the original post.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I did read the thread. The OP's situation sucks, but it is a fact of life. Now, the folks running duties should try to make them as painless as possible and in my experience they do. Usually mid-leave duties are indeed handled by the folks staying local in the unit. This has an unfairness of its own, but usually it comes out in the wash.

 

[aesop081]

but it is a fact of life.

No, it's not.

You don't approve leave for a guy, then tell him he's got duty in the middle of it. You don't tell a guy he cant submit multiple leave passes (so he doesn't waste a day's leave being at work) because it's "too much work for the admin people".

So he goes in and does his duty. What is his status that day ? On leave or on-duty ? What is his status should he get injured doing this duty watch ?

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Come on down Max and be our Duty O instead of an idiot.

You can sit in my posn answering to the CO, CANOSCOM HQ and the Comptroller about all the stuff you're procuring with your budget, or for an International Op with their budget. Yes, more than I have those sections, but I can't procure on their budget any more than they can on mine. Neither can yours!! Word up.  I also oversee the Regiment and QM budgets (not just SCAs) for which they have no delegated authorities. None. Nor are they the Loggie Snr Tech or trade advisors, so they can't decide who is deploying at the last minute (mere hours to come in and actually fly away - in the middle of the night) onto Op Close-CMi etc. Amongst many other things. I know my job, you obviously don't. You want me to trust you to do it though if you're the Duty pers? Not a chance.

Come on down.

Do that to myself? I obviously did that to myself by doing a good job and getting promoted to my current rank level and posted into a on-of posn. We do it to ourselves? Freakin' laughable statement that is --- and very uninformed. I see you are not yet quite in one of those on-of posns. Perhaps some more TI or rank is required first.

Vern I almost always agree with you but this time you are wrong.  In fact being on the cusp of becoming one of those in the WO group that think they are they only person in the army that can do your job.  Fact is none of us are "that guy"  thats what 2IC's are for,  thats why CO's delegate acting CO's when they go on leave. If you up and retire tomorrow there will be someone who can replace you. (not saying I agree 100% with max either)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So, how about those Habs?

 

[brihard]

So, how about those Habs?

Negative, Ghostrider. Pattern is angsty.

 

[aesop081]

So, how about those Habs?

Well, signing Price to a 6-year deal was a good move.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

So, how about those Habs?

Golfing with the Leafs ??

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Golfing with the Leafs ??

Hell ya, I'd even golf with them. All I want to do is get out golfing, it's been too long already.

 

[armyvern]

Vern I almost always agree with you but this time you are wrong.  In fact being on the cusp of becoming one of those in the WO group that think they are they only person in the army that can do your job.  Fact is none of us are "that guy"  thats what 2IC's are for, thats why CO's delegate acting CO's when they go on leave. If you up and retire tomorrow there will be someone who can replace you. (not saying I agree 100% with max either)

I never stated that I was the only one who could do my job; what I stated was there were many aspects that simply could not be delegated down - I gave an example where Treasury Board Policy prohibits the further delegating down. We also have security classifications to consider in our daily work; most are 'higher' than average joe (average joe has nothing to do with rank, it has to do with the security classification one holds). I'm not serving with the Army where we have a couple MWOs of the same trade, many WOs of the same trade etc in the Unit/Command in same base to do it when one is absent.

I can assure you that 95% of my job is delegated down to either of 2 WO (based upon which of our numerous purple trades will be impacted) when I go on leave. It's the 5% that can not be delegated down that the crackberry allows me to handle anytime, anywhere. I am also the A/QM until next APS until they can fill that position, so it's not like those things can be delegated up. Some of our stuff requires "min rank MWO, Logisitics" The only other Loggie above MWO is the Fin O and TB Regulations prevent her from signing 32/34 as she will do the 33 on items I action. She can not do both - the law says that is illegal. I must do one, she the other.

That 5% also can not pile up on my desk to await my return from leave (as was the way it used to be in the CF when someone went on leave/course etc --- their desk piled up with that 'stuff' to await their return or they got called in to work to action) precisely because we are a high tempo pri 2 unit on 48 NTM with many pers constantly deployed, returning or leaving and same with our specialized equipment holdings - constant movement and cycling through all of the various ongoing operational theatres worldwide.

Having a crackberry here to ensure we are able to support those whenever required and as soon as possible in their operations is a necessity. We don't have the luxury of letting the work pile up until our return (as in the old days - that work isn't some new fangled "caused by blackberries": back then, it just didn't get done if the applicable authority was on leave and thus the required stuff didn't get to where it needed to be when it needed to be there) and crackberries have negated that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This one has spun out enough.

It's not even addressing the original post anymore.

People will have to find another thread to piss and moan about.


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