Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]

[ModlrMike]

Which takes us back to most units having a "defined geographic area" standing order WRT leave passes. It's pretty easy to appreciate that if one drives four hours, they're likely outside the unit's geographic area.

 

[ballz]

On the other hand, eight hours driving (round trip) plus a couple hours training means you will be tired and less able to deliver the Army training you are paid to do. If your weekly road trips impact your ability to do your job, expect to have restrictions introduced by your chain of command.

If my performance was sub-par I would expect to be put on remedial measures, not to have "restrictions introduced." But it's often far too much to expect the Chain of Command to treat people like adults. What's next, mandatory bed time?

 

[dapaterson]

What slippery slope? If extracurriculars detract from your ability to do the job you are paid to do, then choose one or the other.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You mean, stuff like intersection hockey...CISM sports...that kind of stuff??

Because most of us know of those folks who are/were on the good old 'sports scholarship' plans who dodged course, field ex's, and the like...

No one likes a double-standard.

 

[ballz]

What slippery slope? If extracurriculars detract from your ability to do the job you are paid to do, then choose one or the other.

That is not what you advocated for at all, personal choice and the associated consequences is what I am advocating for. You advocated for babysitting, something a lot Chains of Command need to realize is not one of its jobs.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Having to arrange for last minute  day care for young kids before they go to school in the morning so you can test a unit recall and show up to work 2 hours early to sit around for 3 hours is awesome. Babysitter busy? Knock on the neighbors door to see if they will take your kids for this "emergency" lol

But it doesn't beat being called 2800 kilometers back off of leave so you can attend a brigade change of command ceremony (because your unit has too few people on the ground) only to get there and during sizing being told to just sit in the stands and spectate.

 

[medicineman]

What's next, mandatory bed time?

Funny you should mention that...we had an enforced curfew when I was in the language school at St Jean in 1988-89 for us cornflaked privates.  300 folks got charged for being 2 minutes late leaving the mess one Thursday night...we had to be in our rooms at 2330 on school nights.  My CSM was a crusty old WO who happened to be the BDO that night.  One of the two times I saw him smile in 6 months was when he marched in the 65 out of my company by threes.  All got $50/5 or $100/10 - fine/CB - depending on how many previous incidents had occurred.  The poor School and Base DO's had to stand by your bed inspections and change parades on all 300 people; t'were quite a sight to be seen that was.

MM

 

[kratz]

Or be the Combined Mess PMC and ensure "last call". Nobody has a leave pass and most should be flying within 12 hours.

 

[ballz]

Refs:  QR&O 16.01
CBI 209.54

Not true.  Reimbursement of expenses for recall from leave simply requires that the member be on leave (weekend leave counts).  There is no requirement for a signed leave pass in order to claim expenses resulting from being recalled on a weekend.  If a member wants to go from Halifax to Vancouver for the weekend and the CO decides that he needs him back before Monday morning, then the unit has to pay.

There is one hole in this, however. Without a leave pass for said weekend trips, what if your leave is cancelled on Thursday and now you have incurred expenses as a result? How can you claim reimbursement of expenses?

We are discussing this issue in my unit now. We know what the leave manual states. However, we have the problem of 1. maintaining our mandated readiness as the unit that currently has the NEO task, and 2. protecting the troops interest if their leave is cancelled.

While I'm usually pretty straight and narrow about the CoC adding in paperwork, red tape, etc etc over stupid s**t, I very much see the utility in having the troops fill out a leave pass for weekend leave if they are going outside the geographical area, utility for both the CoC and the soldier. Not for the purpose of "hey, you he didn't have a leave pass to be in Halifax his weekend... CSM, conduct a UDI."

 

[Harrigan]

I'm with Ballz on this one.

Most of the units I have been in followed the simple principle of the supervisor keeping a signed but blank leave pass in the bottom drawer - one for each subordinate.  In the event of something happening while on weekend leave without a pass, said supervisor can decide based on the situation whether to fill in the particulars (for, say, a compassionate case), or not (for, say, Bloggins flying off to Vegas without a leave pass and getting in a fight).  In both cases, supervisor can then sort out any 'remedial measures' in-house.

 

[Pusser]

There is one hole in this, however. Without a leave pass for said weekend trips, what if your leave is cancelled on Thursday and now you have incurred expenses as a result? How can you claim reimbursement of expenses?

We are discussing this issue in my unit now. We know what the leave manual states. However, we have the problem of 1. maintaining our mandated readiness as the unit that currently has the NEO task, and 2. protecting the troops interest if their leave is cancelled.

While I'm usually pretty straight and narrow about the CoC adding in paperwork, red tape, etc etc over stupid s**t, I very much see the utility in having the troops fill out a leave pass for weekend leave if they are going outside the geographical area, utility for both the CoC and the soldier. Not for the purpose of "hey, you he didn't have a leave pass to be in Halifax his weekend... CSM, conduct a UDI."

I was thinking more along the lines of someone who decides to go on lastminute.com on Friday night and just goes.  He would be fine.  In your example, you're right, Bloggins without a leave pass could be screwed if weekend leave was cancelled at the last minute.  Keep in mind, however, that leave may not be unreasonably withheld (QR&O 16.01), so a supervisor would have to convince the CO that Bloggins should not be allowed to go away that weekend.  Nevertheless, if you can get your act together to organize a trip across the country, surely you can fill out a leave pass...

As I said before, if your unit has a standing degree of readiness, everyone is required to be able to meet those timings.  A leave pass could constitute exemption from those timings.

 

[Pusser]

I'm with Ballz on this one.

Most of the units I have been in followed the simple principle of the supervisor keeping a signed but blank leave pass in the bottom drawer - one for each subordinate.  In the event of something happening while on weekend leave without a pass, said supervisor can decide based on the situation whether to fill in the particulars (for, say, a compassionate case), or not (for, say, Bloggins flying off to Vegas without a leave pass and getting in a fight).  In both cases, supervisor can then sort out any 'remedial measures' in-house.

Some of the most frequently successful charges I've seen at courts martial are those concerning the falsification of documents...

 

[Harrigan]

Some of the most frequently successful charges I've seen at courts martial are those concerning the falsification of documents...

You are assuming a nefarious intent of some sort.  The intent of a leave pass is to show one is on leave, no? 

The only times I have seen it used was in a compassionate-type case.  It is still incumbent upon the member to ensure that the supervisor is aware/approves that he/she is going away on leave, but sometimes there are situations where it just doesn't make sense to force the member to drive into the office to fill out a piece of paper at 2am on a Sunday, then try to find a supervisor to sign it (at 2am) when they need to get on a plane or drive wherever.

If it is a Vegas situation, nothing would be done and the member gets charged with AWOL.  Pretty simple.

 

[Pusser]

You are assuming a nefarious intent of some sort.  The intent of a leave pass is to show one is on leave, no? 

The only times I have seen it used was in a compassionate-type case.  It is still incumbent upon the member to ensure that the supervisor is aware/approves that he/she is going away on leave, but sometimes there are situations where it just doesn't make sense to force the member to drive into the office to fill out a piece of paper at 2am on a Sunday, then try to find a supervisor to sign it (at 2am) when they need to get on a plane or drive wherever.

If it is a Vegas situation, nothing would be done and the member gets charged with AWOL.  Pretty simple.

Fair enough, but such a thing is open to abuse.  By the same token, leave passes can be signed in arrears as well

 

[George Wallace]

Fair enough, but such a thing is open to abuse.  By the same token, leave passes can be signed in arrears as well

Really?  Try that when a legal issue is the question.  I think that would bite you very deeply in the ass.

 

[Pusser]

Really?  Try that when a legal issue is the question.  I think that would bite you very deeply in the ***.

Either course of action can leave someone deeply in the ***.  That's my point.

However, consider this:  a member is on Weekend Leave - no leave pass required - but then something happens and a document is needed to show the member was on leave.  On the one hand, his supervisor has a signed blank leave pass in his desk, which he completes and submits.  Or, the supervisor fills out a leave pass after the fact and dates it accordingly.  A leave pass signed by the member without any details as to locations or dates is no more valid than one filled out on his behalf after the fact.

The question is whether a leave pass is an authoritative document, without which leave is not granted, or an informative document, simply providing written proof.  I'm inclined to think it is the latter.

 

[captloadie]

I would agree with Pusser on this one. The leave pass is an administrative form to track leave balances. If I e-mail my CO requesting compassionate leave, and she replies saying "Granted for x days", I'm on leave. How the administrative part of that happens can be worked out later. If HRMS for the military were to be used as it was designed, we wouldn't need paper at all.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I agree with captloadie wit one small caveat: If you are travelling abroad while on leave, having a piece of paper in hand can be useful. There are still countries out there where, if you are found to be in the military and claim to be on leave, but have no document to back your word, you will be "administratively" detained as suspected deserter (read in a cell and treated like sh$%) until they can clear it up with your chain of command.

Some of those countries are not as far as you may think 

 

[CountDC]

maybe they will get it right with Guardian.      >

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Fair enough, but such a thing is open to abuse.  By the same token, leave passes can be signed in arrears as well

I was of the understanding that leave passes don't even need to be signed by the member. They can be signed off by the CoC without the member signing their part.

Maybe this isn't the case, but I've seen it done quite often, people adding weeks onto post deployment leave etc.