While not saying how much the plan would cost, sky high by DND standards must be really high.
Liberals announce $1.24B sole-sourced deal to upgrade search and rescue helicopter fleet
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Not just a small fleet but it's so spread out.
I knew the fleet was spread thin, I didn't really realize just how thin until seeing the numbers per base.
I know there is not a requirement for having a substantial number at each base it deploys from... But those numbers are spread pretty thin, so only 50% availability means that some calls will literally depend on whether one aircraft can get off the ground or not.
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It’s pretty crazy IMHO that the area expected to be served by so few helicopters is so large.
Yup.
Unrelated to Canada but also an issue with fewer helicopters.
Air Force rethinks combat rescue for major war — but what will it look like?
The Air Force's hunt for a combat search and rescue approach that would work in a war against China or Russia will likely be a two-pronged effort: Help downed aviators survive longer behind enemy lines, and find new ways — perhaps using drones — of finding and reaching them.
www.defensenews.com
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Yup
Unrelated to Canada but also an issue with fewer helicopters.
Air Force rethinks combat rescue for major war — but what will it look like?
The Air Force's hunt for a combat search and rescue approach that would work in a war against China or Russia will likely be a two-pronged effort: Help downed aviators survive longer behind enemy lines, and find new ways — perhaps using drones — of finding and reaching them.
Send an Uber.
Unmanned recovery helicopter
Why would you risk aircraft, crews and people on the ground if you didn't absolutely have to?
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Most folks needing CSAR (or SAR) need medical help as well. The PJ’s who do CSAR down here are primarily medics - not gunfighters.
I’m all about unmanned systems where possible- but I think those will be a small percentage in the grande scheme
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If medical assistance is required then by all means send the whole team. But why risk them if you don't have to. After all isn't it Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape training?
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Totally agree.
My concern is that plan hasn’t been well thought out at this point.
They don’t have the assets even in place and are trying to reduce HH-60W acquisitions, that are needed now to replace the G model PaveHawks that have a lot of blade hours on then.
The ‘convenient’ thing about Russia invading Ukraine is it gives us a real world, real time look at just Russia’s true capabilities & how those are comparing to what NATO had planned for.It’s pretty crazy IMHO that the area expected to be served by so few helicopters is so large.
Yup.
Unrelated to Canada but also an issue with fewer helicopters.
Air Force rethinks combat rescue for major war — but what will it look like?
The Air Force's hunt for a combat search and rescue approach that would work in a war against China or Russia will likely be a two-pronged effort: Help downed aviators survive longer behind enemy lines, and find new ways — perhaps using drones — of finding and reaching them.
So far, steamrolling through Europe within 72hrs seems like it may have been a biiiitttt of an overstretch, seeing as Ukraine took the gloves off & didn’t let them get very far.
My point? We can see how CSAR against China or - literally - Russia would need to be done.
Plenty of MANPADS for sure. Nor would I want to be a CSAR pilot behind their lines, especially if I didn’t have a specific & reliable POC to fly to.
Drones with good sensors sounds like a much better choice than risking human pilots in a high-risk environment like that.
I imagine CSAR missions in a China context will be an entirely different bag altogether, as I see that conflict primarily being maritime in nature.
Is the pilot shortage in the USAF affecting the CSAR community? Are the airframe numbers looking healthy?
(I’ve read various updates over the years, but there are so many bloody Blackhawk/Pavehawk/Seahawk versions out there I can’t keep track of all minor differences & sub variants.)
armrdsoul77
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Company working on an unmanned rescue helicopter for climbers on Everest. Could affix a debit machine on it so only those willing to pay get rescued.
Unmanned helicopter rescue service for Mount Everest
Unmanned helicopter rescue service for Mount Everest
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Company working on an unmanned rescue helicopter for climbers on Everest. Could affix a debit machine on it so only those willing to pay get rescued.
View attachment 71952
Unmanned helicopter rescue service for Mount Everest
Kind of like taking the elevator.
daftandbarmy
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Company working on an unmanned rescue helicopter for climbers on Everest. Could affix a debit machine on it so only those willing to pay get rescued.
View attachment 71952
Unmanned helicopter rescue service for Mount Everest
If we pay extra will it bring a soothing gin and tonic?
After all.. standards...
Skysix
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Not many pilots are going to crawl into an AI drone. remotely piloted, MAYBE. But where is the rest of the package? Remotely piloted ground attack/anti air fire suppression and an anti opfor air defense fighter capability? Not anytime soon with any degree of assurance the rescued pilot will survive the extraction.
Then there is the whole EW issue to deal with. Remote piloting may not even be possible and SkyNet level AI is likely a long way off (thank the lord - Steven Hawking had a seriously good point).
Have you ever done a SERE class? Especially SERE-C that the flight crews and SF take? After 72 hours of evading (assuming no serious combat or ejection or landing injuries) your mental acuity and physical resiliance is often crap compared to what is needed to continue, or to steathily signal, meet and board a non-stealth vertical lift machine somewhere far enough from the landing area that it has a chance of evading detection itself.
CSAR with medics is still the best option, the question is what form will Sandy and Pedro need to be in a contested peer conflict. None of the PJ or SAR-tech or SF or civilian flight medics I have talked to is willing to ride an AI drone or RPV in and back at the level of tech that is currently being developed near Barstow or Big Sur (or other places) - and it is going to be a decade or more before the tech is mature enough to field.
TLDR: Update the fleet, upgrade its defenses, and don't cut back until a combat proven alternative is available.
My 2¢
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FWIW that graphic about fleet serviceability is garbage.
All aircraft undergo maintenance - they are certainly not considered “out of service” or whatever label they had.
SAR is mandated under the NSS to have one (1) LOT assigned to each region they support. By no means do the CH-149 fleet represent the entire RWSAR community nor are they expected to cover all of Canada.
All aircraft undergo maintenance - they are certainly not considered “out of service” or whatever label they had.
SAR is mandated under the NSS to have one (1) LOT assigned to each region they support. By no means do the CH-149 fleet represent the entire RWSAR community nor are they expected to cover all of Canada.
I meant to mention the medical aspect of what CSAR entails, and thought I did, but somehow managed to not say a bloody word.
Getting to the right place at the right time, picking up a passenger or two, and evacuating the area — all without getting shot up or shot down — is only half the battle.
Like Kevin said, most folks requiring CSAR require medical assistance as well. Anything from broken limbs upon landing for pilots, gunshot wounds, infections, trauma, or just sheer dehydration requiring an IV, etc
There was a show a few years back called ‘Inside Combat Rescue’ on History Channel, which I thought was top notch. Those PJ’s in the back really know their stuff, and those skills were put to use all the time - and that was just in a prolonged COIN Op.
Imagine a peer vs peer fight?
Oldgateboatdriver
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After seeing the Russians in action in Ukraine, I wonder who a NATO near peer would be.
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We also use the word Near Peer.
But for several NATO countries, there Military Peers are countries like Botswana…
Skysix
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Ummmm... I challenge you to get in any aircraft that is in a phase check, or the midst of an MEL fix, and fly off into the wild blue yonder. If it will even leave the ground.
An aircraft being routinely or emergeny maintained is NOT immediately serviceable. Sometimes not for days. So thus it is:
Out of service. Unserviceable.
Waiting for parts
Not currently airworthy.
Sitting on the ramp.
In other words a dead parrot. (Maybe Augusta's should be reclassified as a new subspecies of parrot? Their serviceability rates suck)
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Zoomie was noting that the chart doesn’t accurately reflect how RCAF aircraft serviceability/availability status are classified.
They are all ‘in-service’ unless they are struck from the fleet for whatever reason: crash, damage beyond economical repair, disposal, transfer to other department/agency/country, etc.
An RCAF aircraft is either Serviceable or Unserviceable.Aircraft in deep maintenance are usually unserviceable, unless the flying regulations authorize a flight test for the purposes of confirming subsequent serviceability.
Aircraft that are serviceable may not be ‘available’ due to an operational restriction resulting from some component or system beyond the authorized minimum equipment list (MEL) that precludes employment of that aircraft for a specific type of mission.
They are all ‘in-service’ unless they are struck from the fleet for whatever reason: crash, damage beyond economical repair, disposal, transfer to other department/agency/country, etc.
An RCAF aircraft is either Serviceable or Unserviceable.Aircraft in deep maintenance are usually unserviceable, unless the flying regulations authorize a flight test for the purposes of confirming subsequent serviceability.
Aircraft that are serviceable may not be ‘available’ due to an operational restriction resulting from some component or system beyond the authorized minimum equipment list (MEL) that precludes employment of that aircraft for a specific type of mission.
<Awkwardly whistling> …Gosh it’s hot out today…
Colin Parkinson
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Canada enters Chat
I had a conversation with a sar tech at the Summerside air show around 10 years ago. He said he once had to "bag" (breathing bag) a guy while being winched up in the basket in high seas (very windy). How is a drone going to do that If sar techs won't get in the back of drones?
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