Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread
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Infanteer said:
In fairness, Infanteer, I didn't coin the phrase.
This is one of the 'sources': http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1107564215578_8
I seem to recall that the Globe and the Post also used the same phrase.
According to the secret decoder ring I got in my cereal box â ?senior government officialâ ? means top level staffer in the Prime Minister's Office â “ probably Scott Reid â “ speaking on â ?deep backgroundâ ?.
I like the CTV News title: PM outsources search for national identity. You would think â “ and here I agree 100% with Welsh â “ that after almost 140 years we, Canadians, might not still need to little group hugs where we reaffirm our national identity. If you want to know about our national identity then go to Vimy Ridge, Ortona and to Point Pleasant Park in Halifax, but that's another rant.
From 1969 onwards Canadian foreign policy has been, explicitly, tied to domestic policies. Now, for some people, that will be as it should be â “ all policies, I have said, should be bound by some unifying threads of national values and even ideals. But that's not what Ivan Head and Pierre Trudeau meant when they said, in the '69 White Paper, that foreign p9licy needed to serve the ends of domestic policies. They were, formally, renouncing the 20 year old St. Laurent policy which cast Canada as a â ?leading middle powerâ ?. Nonsense, said Trudeau/Head, we are neither strong enough nor rich enough to 'lead' other nations, nor do we wish to be; we have our own problems, here in Canada, and we want our foreign affairs to help us to advance our domestic goals. Things we do in the wide world must serve our domestic â “ national unity and social policy â “ agendas. Colossal wastes of time, money and political capital like La Francophonie (created in 1970) and the North-South Institute (1976) are the direct results of that policy. They are wastes of political capital to us because they make 'promises' we cannot, will not keep.
Although Welsh says the right things on dealing with the US, for example, in many respects she is a Trudeauite and I keep seeing Ivan Head's ideas poking out from behind her own well crafted words. (See: http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/20041105/article.shtml?%3C!--1--%3Enews/1founder.html for a link between Head's â ?global citizenshipâ ? and Welsh's â ?model citizenâ ? concepts.)
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Edward Campbell said:
Oh, I know that Mr Campbell - I was referring to the word in general. Everytime I see it, it seems to conotate Canada's search for a "hip and cool" Foreign Policy that would look good on MuchMusic.... ^-^
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PPCLI Guy said:
I think you're right; I cannot see the top level bureaucrats standing still, even for the Prime Minister, if their appreciation of the global strategic situation was to be challenged. I also think Welsh is smart enough to understand that the official, bureaucratic world view is, probably, fairly sensible and well grounded. They, the mandarins, have information which is not available to her - they have information which they rarely, if ever, share with their minister or the PMO - usually because (as we, and Gomery heard from Alex Himelfarb re: Chrétien and the Auditor General) ministers and the PM do to want to know too much detail.
That being said, the rumour mill where I stop for the odd pint, says that her first cut was rejected because she went too far for Pettigrew, Himelfarb, the foreign affairs top brass and Ken Calder (ADM Policy at DND) but not far enough for Defence Minister Graham, his DM Ward Elcock and some people working under Himelfarb in PCO.
Welsh is a respected academic with a following of her own; she did not sign on to take dictation, not from Pettigrew's minions and not, even, from Paul Martin. One of the reasons she is respected is because she is smart; smart enough to know that one does not dictate policy in Ottawa. Successful policies have to have buy ins from many (most, preferably) of the stakeholders and you don't get those by ignoring the good advice of the establishment - some of which, like Calder at DND, have been around for a long, long time and have many allies scattered throughout government, business and academe.
I think she will insist of two points being included:
"¢ Grow up, Canada! and
"¢ Be a global 'model citizen.'
I think the establishment will win and she will soft-peddle North American integration. The argument, which she would do well to accept, is that Treasury Board Secretary Alcock has already, quietly and boringly, begun the process and, for now, the less said the better. See: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/media/nr-cp/2005/0324_e.asp
I hope Elcock and company win out against her military niche role proclivity. It is, I think, her weakest plank - she is not well schooled in defence issues; I hope someone, Canada or the UK, recruits her into a very high level defence policy/strategy post (maybe Calder's (he's sixtyish now, I guess, and has been in place for nearly 15 years) here in Ottawa); she is a quick learner and a few years juggling policy dreams and fiscal realities might do wonders for her perspective.
Welsh needs two things from this policy review:
"¢ Since it is now common knowledge that it is hers, it must get a good reception from both the foreign policy establishment and the popular press; and
"¢ It should become an entrée into the small, exclusive world of top level strategic policy.
Paul Martin needs a policy which:
"¢ Gets a passing grade in Washington - which it will if she does the Grow up, Canada! shtick and avoids the niche market nonsense; and
"¢ Plays well in Québec and with the Liberal Party of Canada Youth Wing and Women's Commission - which it will do if she avoids talking about continentalism (creping or leaping) and does her model citizen dance.
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This "Model Citizen" crap reminds me of Martin Wight's reference to such noble ideals as "the empty professions of peaceful purpose and common interest."
It would be just like this government to piss the minute remainder of international respect this nation has, away on a pipe dream of warm and fuzzy feelings and good intentions.
The meek may inherit the earth but not until the strong are well and truly done with it.
Soft Power anyone?
It would be just like this government to piss the minute remainder of international respect this nation has, away on a pipe dream of warm and fuzzy feelings and good intentions.
The meek may inherit the earth but not until the strong are well and truly done with it.
Soft Power anyone?
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Making Canada relavent again. Just a few easy steps here. Actually buy and get deleivery of the hulls promised to the LAV III projects, procure C-17's to deploy them. Spend the money to get the infantry trained up on the new weapon mix, and the armour on doctrine for the new kit. Deploy our troops in force with clear mission objectives to use force to make change, not keep score, in the next hellhole chosen for summer vacation. Likewise the Navy requires upgrades if it is to help in force projection. Afghanistan was one of the first good missions in decades. Darfur would be one case where force used by a small international coalition could bring good Canadian values (genocide isn't Canadian eh?) at gunpoint to the needy. Using military force to disarm and disband the racial militia's is a good use of force. Putting troops on the ground to stand between them is a case of half measures being all the way stupid; too much risk for no possibility of good outcome. If we are to be internationally relavent, we have to commit force enough to the task at hand to warrant input at the policy table. Combat makes changes, peacekeeping preserves the status quo. Iraq and Afghanistan made changes. Yugoslavia just boiled more slowly, the peacekeepers mandate kept the real possibility of making peace forever out of their hands. It is not enough to have the force, you must have the ability and will to use it. Our politicians seem to be wedded to half measures and equivocating. Military force is an unequivcable as you get. Hammers do not get used gently, they get used with precision and measured force. The best hammer in the world accomplishes nothing without the will to let it fall. Given sufficient funding we can give them a hell of a hammer, we can't give them the spine to use it.
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Many many good points and opinions have been voiced in this thread. In fact, all the way from what I would consider good enough to be arguments before Mr.Dithers himself on how to run certain parts of the country/fix problems, to horribly inaccurate!...
Here's my 0.02 cents. Take it as you will, crap or gold.
Many people touched on one problem they see facing Canada in the future, individualism, nationalism. What is "Canadian" per se? We have more immigrants per year than we do actual babies born, probably not a surprise. In fact if we didn't have those immigrants, we'd have a higher death rate then we do a birth rate. We're not that far off from having our population die out rather than increase.
So, with all these new "landed immigrants" and "Canadians", what will BE truely Canadian after 20 years? Also as someone mentioned, more often then not, these immigrant populations are very segregated. Either by choice or not, and end up causing diffusion and problems. Do we need them? Yes, do we want them, YES! Do they help our country and our economy? Of course...
I think over-immigration would be a problem/factor in the future, not because they don't love Canada or want to be apart of it, we'll simply have an identity crises and the country won't be able to make up it's mind on issues! That's already a problem we face with current leadership.
We can all point out problems/issues. One thing I think most of us can agree on is the problem of Leadership, with any political party out there currently. We don't have very strong leadership at the moment, or any other stronger leaders to choose from really. Also, I think the only reason Mr.Chretien lasted so long is because no one wanted to see what would happen if we switched, too afraid. Well, most people anyway, most I say because he was in place for 11 years (I think? Right?) or around that many, so yes, most.
Leaders can make or break a nation, we have history to show for that.
Lastly, old fashion values. Canada isn't the same Canada it was even 15 years ago. I suppose that's not surprising, but I was raised to be polite and courteous to people in general. Have manners etc. I remember when people who didn't know eachother would say hi passing one another on the street, most don't now. I make a point to be nice to people, open doors, say hi etc.
Our youth (I'm still part of it at 23 I suppose), are falling away from common sense and good values. More and more, you can see younger kids smoking, doing drugs, getting pregnant. Maybe it's every generation that does harder things younger, but, I think a 13 year old pregnant teen is abit far no>? When I was in highschool, it was still a shocker for a girl to get pregnant and drop out. Maybe the odd one here or there. Then again I was raised in a small town.
Just my opinions, I've posted them here to see how they hold up, and what other's opinions are. Very good thread indeed.
Joe
Here's my 0.02 cents. Take it as you will, crap or gold.
Many people touched on one problem they see facing Canada in the future, individualism, nationalism. What is "Canadian" per se? We have more immigrants per year than we do actual babies born, probably not a surprise. In fact if we didn't have those immigrants, we'd have a higher death rate then we do a birth rate. We're not that far off from having our population die out rather than increase.
So, with all these new "landed immigrants" and "Canadians", what will BE truely Canadian after 20 years? Also as someone mentioned, more often then not, these immigrant populations are very segregated. Either by choice or not, and end up causing diffusion and problems. Do we need them? Yes, do we want them, YES! Do they help our country and our economy? Of course...
I think over-immigration would be a problem/factor in the future, not because they don't love Canada or want to be apart of it, we'll simply have an identity crises and the country won't be able to make up it's mind on issues! That's already a problem we face with current leadership.
We can all point out problems/issues. One thing I think most of us can agree on is the problem of Leadership, with any political party out there currently. We don't have very strong leadership at the moment, or any other stronger leaders to choose from really. Also, I think the only reason Mr.Chretien lasted so long is because no one wanted to see what would happen if we switched, too afraid. Well, most people anyway, most I say because he was in place for 11 years (I think? Right?) or around that many, so yes, most.
Leaders can make or break a nation, we have history to show for that.
Lastly, old fashion values. Canada isn't the same Canada it was even 15 years ago. I suppose that's not surprising, but I was raised to be polite and courteous to people in general. Have manners etc. I remember when people who didn't know eachother would say hi passing one another on the street, most don't now. I make a point to be nice to people, open doors, say hi etc.
Our youth (I'm still part of it at 23 I suppose), are falling away from common sense and good values. More and more, you can see younger kids smoking, doing drugs, getting pregnant. Maybe it's every generation that does harder things younger, but, I think a 13 year old pregnant teen is abit far no>? When I was in highschool, it was still a shocker for a girl to get pregnant and drop out. Maybe the odd one here or there. Then again I was raised in a small town.
Just my opinions, I've posted them here to see how they hold up, and what other's opinions are. Very good thread indeed.
Joe
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Good rant Joe. 
Just to point some thing out.
Immigrants are all of us. We can all trace our ancestory to some other place going back a number of generations. Even the Natives had to cross a land bridge at one point in the foggy past.
"Visable minorities" are not going to be minorities any longer in most of our major cities within the next 12 years. So it won't be much longer after that before the "white northern european" is the minority in this country. We are all Canadian.
As for the kids going to hell? ;D From someone who IS 15-20 years older. It hasn't changed much. Actually all of the stats are either the same or +/- a few percentages. Don't worry, you'll live.
Just to point some thing out.
Immigrants are all of us. We can all trace our ancestory to some other place going back a number of generations. Even the Natives had to cross a land bridge at one point in the foggy past.
"Visable minorities" are not going to be minorities any longer in most of our major cities within the next 12 years. So it won't be much longer after that before the "white northern european" is the minority in this country. We are all Canadian.
As for the kids going to hell? ;D From someone who IS 15-20 years older. It hasn't changed much. Actually all of the stats are either the same or +/- a few percentages. Don't worry, you'll live.
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I agree with you 110%. I grew up in a small town and I learned to respect people in general. Nowadadys, it seems like its everybody for themselves, who gives a shit about the person next to you. I think alot of it has to do with what alot of this generation is hearing and seeing from the media. The type of message most kids get is do whatever the hell makes you feel happy, and to hell with anybody else.
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Oh I do know that, my entire family on the dad's side is 100% Italian, grandparents born in Italy+dad too etc... I suppose what I was trying to get at, is that some of them don't care, or don't really think about "Canada". They just find it to be a fertile breeding ground I guess. Much better than many other countries. Nothing wrong with that, but we can't please everyone!!!
How are we suppose to hold a deep culture and a "Canadian" idolism when there is every kind of person pulling and tugging for every possible scenario under the sun? I just don't want our coutry to burst apart at the seams because we have no identity. :-\
So wait, U mean that, it's true?!?! :-[ Each generation gets worse and worse eh? Now that sucks... I suppose next generation we'll have 10 year olds getting pregnant. If the human body adapts that far!!! God, could you imagine... In all seriousness though, there has to be a breaking or stopping point. It's really bad, hardcore drugs infest the highschools. It's damn bad...
Anyway...
Thank you.
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Pte (R) Joe said:
Don't worry. Your dad is probably thinking more like and Italian. but the fact that you ask these questions means that you don't. Your a Canadian of Italian descent. Its up to you how to interrupt that.
Pte (R) Joe said:
No no no... ...sheesh.
Things are NO different today then they were when I was your age. At least statistically. Otherwise I'm still wondering how high those shirts can go, and how low the belt will be worn? But oh well.
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Yeah, it seems the media has a HUGE part in it. I live right on the border to the USA, we get all the US channels/radio etc. U name it. Half of everything around here is American owned really. But it's not just the Americans, really. It's all the media advertising, Canadian, American, you name it! It seems as if they're trying to brainwash the kids to be like this these days...
My girlfriend used to work with teens who were in closed custody (lock and key) half-way houses. The mentality with these kids was, "You stole your dad's car, got your 14 year old girlfriend pregant, and robbed a house?!?! Yo dude, that is so wicked! That's heat man, I'll have to top that before I turn 18 so I don't go to real jail Yo! Word up!".... :
When I was a teenager, if you did something like that and bragged about it, we'd say: "Your a f*cking idiot, your going to be a looser and crackhead for the rest of your life if you keep that up. See you in jail along with the rest of your looser friends f*ckhead!!!"...
That's a generalization, but the worst people did when I was in highschool for, 90% of the drug users, was pot. Mushrooms also, and at the end, extacy apparently made it's big wave... And I graduated and that was it...
I dunno, it just seems that "hip-hop" and "badass" is the way to go these days. Regardless of the consequences...
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Don't know if it has been mentioned already, but people conserned about this subject should read J.L. Granatstein "Who Killed the Canadian Armed Forces", Douglas Bland "Canada without Armed Forces" and Andrew Cohen "While Canada Slept (how we lost our place in the world)".
Brad Sallows said:
Foreign companies have even less loyalty than ours do, and can use transfer pricing (overcharging their Canadian branch-plant for items) to hide income and avoid paying taxes. That being said, corporations barely pay one-fifth of the tax they paid 50 years ago. They used to pay 50% of all th tax, now under 10%.
Infanteer said:
Before NAFTA we had Trudeau's FIRA and operated under GATT (WTO) which was at least preferrable. The NEP established our right to govern our affairs. But yeah, we still had tonnes of branch plants. NAFTA just sped the takeover up. Not to suggest all is lost. It isn't. But, we have to play by our own rules to improve. Playing by the rules of neo-liberalism won't work. The U.S. simply has too much capital for us to avoid intervention. Europe and Japan allow 5-10% foreign ownership at most--we have over 40%. Well over 50% in oil and gas. 100% in automobiles.
Zipper said:Good rant Joe.
Just to point some thing out.
Immigrants are all of us. We can all trace our ancestory to some other place going back a number of generations. Even the Natives had to cross a land bridge at one point in the foggy past.
"Visable minorities" are not going to be minorities any longer in most of our major cities within the next 12 years. So it won't be much longer after that before the "white northern european" is the minority in this country. We are all Canadian.
As for the kids going to heck? ;D From someone who IS 15-20 years older. It hasn't changed much. Actually all of the stats are either the same or +/- a few percentages. Don't worry, you'll live.
I've heard the argument and used to believe it. However, technically Canada was the French homeland [new France] and the British colony, British North America. It's impossible to be an immigrant to a coutnry you found. Visible minorities are 16% of Canada, and over 50% in the old cities of Toronto and Vancouver. I'd be nicer to Trudeau if we had voted for official multiculturalism, but the polls tell a different story about Canadians enthusiasm, or lack thereof. Change isn't always necessary and beneficial, and if they wanted us to have more kids they could give us something to live for. The Liberal notion of rapid, exciting change isn't something I'm a big fan of.
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I actaully read an article about how some african american leaders were attacking the hip hop culture being adopted amongst the nations youths. It's creating a huge problem in my own opinion, because alot of people are starting to think that black means cop killing, gangsta living, nailing bitchs, and killing others. Have any of you ever watched MTV or VH1, the type of lifestyle they usually support is individualistic, and most kids tend to idolize people like 50 cent, Tupac Shakur, as well as NWA. I watched a documentary with 50 cent, and in it whenever he saw a police cruiser he ran away, and their was a bike police officer a few feet away from him, and he got one of his gang members to go try to grab his gun. WTF. Thats the type of person this generation is modelling itself upon. It seems as though we as a society are more happy with seeing the failures of others, thats the reason reality TV is doing so well. I watched a movie the other day, and their was a preview for a new skater movie coming out, and they saw some police officers coming and they said "look out the pigs are coming". I'm just getting really sick of all of this BS. I mean pretty well anybody thats an authority figure is considered evil. I was even watching this one rap video with Tupac Shakur that made all of the police officers look evil, and he was your friendly drug dealing gangsta who was kissing babies.
Sorry for the rant
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Futuretrooper said:
You have touched on something that I wonder about: the effect of gangsta rap on the young black males in our society (well-any "dispossessed" young people in general...). Now, I know that every generation of adults freaks out about their kids' music--we all went through that with our parents at one time or another. But I don't ever recall hearing, on such a grand scale, so much poisonous stuff. Here are the messages I get from 50 Cent, NWA, G-Unit, Tupac, etc:
-women are "ho's", "bitches" or "shorties" whose main function is to provide oral sex or be driven to heights of pleasure by the amazing skills (and massive equipment...) of the singer...;
-police are the enemy and are fair game...;
-the important things in life are cars, money, clothes, and guns-the more and the flashier the better;
-apparently nobody has a job or works to get anything they have;
-the response to anybody even looking at you sideways is along the lines of "Yo--ni**a: Ah blow yo mother******g head off wif mah gun. Yo a dead ni**ga" or some other insanely violent and completely disproportionate response;
-drugs are a natural part of life and being a dealer is a legitimate lifestyle;
-there are no "family values" because, apparently, there are no functional families (check out Eminem on THAT one!!) and
-life is defintely Hobbesian: nasty, brutal and short.
I don't recall hearing this to the same degree in other genres of modern music before. Given the apparently massive image and sales reach of these "artists". it's hard to believe that they aren't influential. I wonder if the message isn't: "Hey-do all this stuff and you can be rich and famous just like me. Screw playing the game by the rules because blacks won't get anywhere that way"
Or, as my daughter tells me, I'm just a square old white guy over-reacting to well-meant songs that are just telling kids how NOT to live.
Cheers.
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