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I would say if we went to the US with a shopping list of new tanks, aircraft, A Burkes etc there wouldn't be any tariffs.
Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)
- Thread starter x-grunt
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Swampbuggy
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I’m convinced that’s true.
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Part of me wishes that we would step up and be the strong partner and hopefully calming influence with the US instead of the deadbeat uncle.
Swampbuggy
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I can’t disagree, though I am taking issue with the way the US is currently handling the situation. I’m not sure threats of annexation and crippling tariffs are the way I’d go about it.
We really need to concentrate on doing better as a partner for our own sake too. I obviously don’t have access to any insight on how the two countries are meant to split up the defence workload for NORAD, for example, but it seems to me that the sooner we have defined requirements, we should then bring that shopping list to the US and make the partnership deeper, but not in the current lopsided and unequal fashion.
Probably this applies even more so to NATO.
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I think there is a very grim realization that no matter what we do, the orange man is going to demand more, more and more. Realistically and pragmatically we do have to rearm and start taking a good look at who we call friends. We’ll find the truth that the whole world already knows- a country has responsibilities and can count on no other country but itself.
Especially if we want to stay in G7 which will be Trumps next target for Canada.
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Threatening to cut off their electricity, oil, gas and strategic minerals is not helping matters. Statements like that is how countries get invaded. We currently don't have strong leaders and our PM is a lame duck, can't help to think that lack of leadership is emboldening him.
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Honestly AB’s aren’t surplus currently. You’d have better luck with Virginia class SSN’s for a Delivery Date than an AB for the RCN…
lenaitch
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All they would have to do is embark someone who has the authority to enforce those things (well, except showing the fag).Talking about the Orca's......
Navy's eight Orca-class vessels gather for historic exercise
All eight Orca-class vessels came together for a joint exercise on that extended into the Strait of Juan de Fucawww.timescolonist.com
After reading this, I don't see why something similar can't be in place for trainee's/cadets on the Great Lakes from Thunder Bay to Quebec City - pollution violators - check, illegal fishing - check, people smuggling - check, gunrunning - check, drug running - check, training - check, showing the fag - check, creating awareness within the CDN people - check.
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The last thing the RCN needs is a staffing pig like an AB...
Great ships for America, terrible for us. If wanted to piggyback off an American ship programme, it would be the new FFGs.
NearingZenith
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I agree with you that with President Trump there’s no such thing as successful appeasement and everything is a moving target. At the World Economic Forum last week Trump announced that Saudi Arabia agreed to invest $600 Billion in the US over 4 years and in the next breath said he wants it to be $1 Trillion instead. It takes a lot of gall to shake down Saudi Arabia and the Crown Prince in public. Yes, Trump might have been partly joking and $1 Trillion wasn’t a hard demand, but it’s also clear that if Saudi Arabia thought $600 Billion was enough to buy them 4 years of good will with Trump, that’s not going to be the case. Similarly, if the Canadian government went down to Washington to sign a major defence purchase agreement with Trump, by the time they got to the post-signing press conference I’d expect Trump to promote the huge defence purchase in one breath and in the next breath announce that negotiations had begun for the next major defence purchase agreement.
We need to increase defence spending for our own sake and invest in things that make sense for our own defence needs including supporting Canadian defence production where there’s long-term value in doing so. Yes we need to collaborate with the US with continental defence in mind and buy American defence products as necessary, but we shouldn’t be beholden to getting a whole bunch of kit and buying American simply to try to satisfy Trump.
quadrapiper
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Aren't they also somewhat built out as far as hull capacity? Might be misremembering something.
Feels like any "Future X" program in the States was already risky, and is now vapourware until there's a flotilla/brigade/wing worth in service, and even then it's maybe a bit dodgy. Better to buy Korean than discover the program you invested $billions in as a partner has been cancelled because Musk thinks it's outdated, only fires $100k rounds, etc.
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I'm willing to bet the new FFG programme will work out. Even the USN is realizing the AB's are great, but not perfect for all roles.
Just like we use MCDVs and AOPVs for low intensity tasks, the USN is looking for a ship for a lot of low intensity routine tasks.
When it comes to armour and artillery, I think the RoK is onto something. When it comes to naval power, I'd stick to the UK, USA, France, and maybe Germany as examples.
Rainbow1910
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I am not especially convinced by vague hand gesturing to outsource RCN duties to contracted ships, who's contracts might never materialize in the first place or be easily cut in the future. Considering how badly the Govt managed to get sponged with the Asterix lease, I don't have high hopes for any future endeavors.
Agree entirely on the point of the Kingston class.
As for the CMMC/CSC plan, building at Irving is simply not feasible. Interspersing CMMC construction with CSC construction will only serve to delay both programs, making a scrambled mess of their respective supply chains and destroy any efficiencies inherent to long term, high number shipbuilding. CSC is far too vital to be delayed, stopped, etc by any other program, especially CMMC. Irving is going to struggle with CSC for sometime, switching it up when they are just getting into their stride is sup-optimal.
Another yard besides the big three needs to be brought in to build CMMC, especially if they want them at anything approaching the frankly insane timelines they have put forward. That will require a sub-1000t ship or NSS to be changed to permit another combatant builder to come onboard.
CSC is expensive but any built in Canada CMMC will likely not be especially cheap either, especially coming from an inexperienced yard. I'd be skeptical of it being a truly "cost effective" endeavor.
Rainbow1910
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Threatening Canada with what amounts to a recession, incendiary rhetoric regarding our sovereignty and treating your long term partner as you would a belligerent criminal neighbor is frankly insulting behavior from any ally, let alone from our closest in the United States. Resigning ourselves to fate and crawling back like a beaten dog with our tail between our legs will only embolden this sort of behavior in the future. It is fairly obvious that the discussion from the US side is largely based off "vibes" and optics instead of an actual good faith discussion between long time partners.
The Burke design is at a fundamental dead end in its development, it is a design originating from the 1980's and effectively every bit of space/weight has been used up in order to keep it on track against current/future threats. They are personnel hungry, jack of all trades designs that lack a lot of modern accommodations/quality of life features than say the River class will. It would make little sense for Canada to try and get these sorts of vessels and operate them into the foreseeable future, even if we could procure them. The US is desperate for new Burke's to replace their aging cruisers and bring up fleet numbers, their entire production is going into domestic use against the Chinese and not into the RCN.
deepblue202
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When we get aro
How many corvettes would we realistically get if this plan is realized.
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Just an example. We could order all manner of things, bombs, missiles, helos, etc etc. We need pretty much everything.
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Bit of a moot point now but we should of tried. I can see this completely getting out of hand.
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The shore side support footprint for a fleet of AB would itself break the RCN before a single ship left the jetty.
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Watching the NAC Ottawa speakers event where they are talking about Kingston class replacement.
Kingstons will be paid off as their hull certifications expire, last one sailing will be 2029.
The replacement needs to be a proper small warship.
They are looking at nothing longer than 105m because they can't fit anything larger into the harbour in Halifax within the berthing plan. They said about 1000 tons or heavier. Supposed to bridge the gap between AOPs and high end warfighters. Delivery mid 2030's which is very agressive.
Requirements include:
-organic air search radar
-organic underwater sensor (towed arry or HMS)
-must detect and defend itself vs modern threats
-contribute to NA continental defence so likely means strike length VLS
-approx 40 sailors
-link into NORAD
Some thoughts. 1000tons and fit all that? First Strike length VLS normally won't fit into a hull that small, second 90m proper warship is going to be approx 2000-2500 tons (Gowind class corvette, River class OPV) etc... so I think the tonnage expectation is off the mark, but if length is the limiting requirement then that's going to be just fine.
Kingstons will be paid off as their hull certifications expire, last one sailing will be 2029.
The replacement needs to be a proper small warship.
They are looking at nothing longer than 105m because they can't fit anything larger into the harbour in Halifax within the berthing plan. They said about 1000 tons or heavier. Supposed to bridge the gap between AOPs and high end warfighters. Delivery mid 2030's which is very agressive.
Requirements include:
-organic air search radar
-organic underwater sensor (towed arry or HMS)
-must detect and defend itself vs modern threats
-contribute to NA continental defence so likely means strike length VLS
-approx 40 sailors
-link into NORAD
Some thoughts. 1000tons and fit all that? First Strike length VLS normally won't fit into a hull that small, second 90m proper warship is going to be approx 2000-2500 tons (Gowind class corvette, River class OPV) etc... so I think the tonnage expectation is off the mark, but if length is the limiting requirement then that's going to be just fine.
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