Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[NavyShooter]

If the CMMC goes forward...let's not focus on having them able to operate the Cyclone...there's too few Cyclones, and crews to operate them from that many platforms.

Dig into the museum stocks and jump back to the 1960's and get a few of these...or the modern equivalent.

Gyrodyne QH-50 DASH - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

Further to the Dutch concept per Wiki

Multifunctional Support Ship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The final concept.

Multifunctional Support Ships​

[edit]
On 24 September 2024 State Secretary for Defence Gijs Tuinman gave an update on the MICAN-program, which was now named the Multifunctional Support Ship (MSS). He also announced the procurement for the first two ships With insiders telling Marineschepen.nl that more ships are being considered if the program is a success. The two ships will be a militarized version of a fast crew supplier from Damen, most likely the Fast Crew Supplier 5009 (FCS 5009).

Payload​

[edit]
Weapon Payloads that are selected so far are:

• Containerized Barak-ER SAM
• Containerized IAI Harop loitering munition
• Containerized ECM/ESM

The original concept

TRIFIC concept​

[edit]
The Rapidly Increased Firepower Capability Royal Netherlands Navy (TRIFIC) ships were envisioned to stay close (around 5 nmi (9.3 km)) to a mother ship and give extra missile capability. The ship would rely on the radars, missile guidance and defence from an external source like the Future Air Defender, De Zeven Provinciën class, Holland class or the ASW frigate acting as mother ship.

The modified concept

MICAN concept​

[edit]
The Modular Integrated Capability for ACDF and North Sea (MICAN) concept was announced in December 2023 as a revised plan from the original TRIFIC concept. The plan still involves buying COTS offshore supply vessels, but instead of four, two ships are planned. Also the mission of the concept has changed, from solely being used as a missile carrier, to being able to carry sensors and systems to investigate (potential) threats on the North Sea. This task was added in response to a Russian spy ship, the Admiral Vladimirsky, that was seen in the Dutch EEZ on multiple occasions. The new mission is to monitor such vessels and see what they are up to below the surface.

The original work boat design

FCS 5009 - Fast Crew Supplier | Damen

Professional equipment and proven systems ensure the reliable operation of Fast Crew Boat 5009 for transporting crew to and from oil rigs.

www.damen.com

Key figures​

Hull

Length o.a. 53.2 m
Beam o.a. 9.8 m
Depth at sides 4.7 m
Draught max 3.5 m

Hull material Steel
Superstructure Aluminium

Capacities

Crew Up to 8 persons
Industrial personnel Up to 80 persons

Fuel oil 169.9 m³
Fresh water 28.6 m³
Sewage7.1 m³

Deck area225 m²
Total deadweight 325 t

Performances

SpeedUp to 27 knots
Range at max speed Up to 3,100 nm

 

[Kirkhill]

If the CMMC goes forward...let's not focus on having them able to operate the Cyclone...there's too few Cyclones, and crews to operate them from that many platforms.

Dig into the museum stocks and jump back to the 1960's and get a few of these...or the modern equivalent.

Gyrodyne QH-50 DASH - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 91511

The modern equivalent

Killing submarines by drone | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

The article actually references that earlier DASH system.

 

[Furniture]

Further to the Dutch concept per Wiki

Multifunctional Support Ship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The final concept.



The original concept



The modified concept



The original work boat design

FCS 5009 - Fast Crew Supplier | Damen

Professional equipment and proven systems ensure the reliable operation of Fast Crew Boat 5009 for transporting crew to and from oil rigs.

www.damen.com

View attachment 91513View attachment 91514

Key figures​

Hull

Length o.a. 53.2 m
Beam o.a. 9.8 m
Depth at sides 4.7 m
Draught max 3.5 m

Hull material Steel
Superstructure Aluminium

Capacities

Crew Up to 8 persons
Industrial personnel Up to 80 persons

Fuel oil 169.9 m³
Fresh water 28.6 m³
Sewage7.1 m³

Deck area225 m²
Total deadweight 325 t

Performances

SpeedUp to 27 knots
Range at max speed Up to 3,100 nm

While those are cool ships, they are for an entirely different mission than the CMMC is planned to accomplish.

The CMMC is intended to be a warship, not just a missile truck.

 

[Kirkhill]

While those are cool ships, they are for an entirely different mission than the CMMC is planned to accomplish.

The CMMC is intended to be a warship, not just a missile truck.

I was responding to this

Well then maybe this could be a better fit:

Stan Patrol 6211 | Damen

The combination of superior seakeeping and the position of the wheelhouse results in the highest possible level of operability for Damen Stan Patrol 6211.

www.damen.com

and this

I love that hull.

 

[PrairieFella]

I am not especially convinced by vague hand gesturing to outsource RCN duties to contracted ships, who's contracts might never materialize in the first place or be easily cut in the future. Considering how badly the Govt managed to get sponged with the Asterix lease, I don't have high hopes for any future endeavors.


Agree entirely on the point of the Kingston class.

As for the CMMC/CSC plan, building at Irving is simply not feasible. Interspersing CMMC construction with CSC construction will only serve to delay both programs, making a scrambled mess of their respective supply chains and destroy any efficiencies inherent to long term, high number shipbuilding. CSC is far too vital to be delayed, stopped, etc by any other program, especially CMMC. Irving is going to struggle with CSC for sometime, switching it up when they are just getting into their stride is sup-optimal.

Another yard besides the big three needs to be brought in to build CMMC, especially if they want them at anything approaching the frankly insane timelines they have put forward. That will require a sub-1000t ship or NSS to be changed to permit another combatant builder to come onboard.

CSC is expensive but any built in Canada CMMC will likely not be especially cheap either, especially coming from an inexperienced yard. I'd be skeptical of it being a truly "cost effective" endeavor.

Could the Corvettes not be built outcan since they weren't initially envisioned in the NSS?

 

[PrairieFella]

No, but the training system needs a bunch of Martechs and NTOs to ramp up the training at the schools, as well as work on the projects, support the new equipment and ships, on top of the people to actually operate the new ships on the books. The TDOs and others on the training side are overtasked, STG is at capacity, RPOps and ADM(IE) have more work than they can handle (or have funding for).

My point is there is no surge left to accommodate yet another new class, and we'll struggle to do what we already have on the books. The corvettes are eating up some eng resources as well, while other eng billets are overtasked or empty, so yeah, this impacts support to existing ships and figuring out how we'll do the future ships.

Army guy so I have zero experience or insight to the RCN training system. Assuming it's possible ould the Navy not park a frigate per coast and just blitz martech candidates out for a year? How long is the course? Assuming a 1:4 staff/student ratio, how many martechs can be pumped out under my assumption?

 

[PrairieFella]

There are a bunch of people in NDHQ that want your contacts...

The Oracle makes another grand proclamation on our behalf.

 

[quadrapiper]

Army guy so I have zero experience or insight to the RCN training system. Assuming it's possible ould the Navy not park a frigate per coast and just blitz martech candidates out for a year? How long is the course? Assuming a 1:4 staff/student ratio, how many martechs can be pumped out under my assumption?

Maybe?

Somehow magicking up the been/done MS-PO1 to instruct might be a bit more of a problem. A bunch of the trades that got bundled into MARTECH had (remembering vague outlines, vaguely) ferociously long training trajectories, and far too many of the rebadged Engineering and HT types are now retired.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Army guy so I have zero experience or insight to the RCN training system. Assuming it's possible ould the Navy not park a frigate per coast and just blitz martech candidates out for a year? How long is the course? Assuming a 1:4 staff/student ratio, how many martechs can be pumped out under my assumption?

Sort of; there used to be some steamers that were the training fleet that basically did this. The ship would get activated during the day, maintenance would get done, famil with equipment etc, then shut down. I think a few of them sailed in local areas (like a trip down to Boston, Bermuda etc and back) but was pretty limited.

The coasts have a program to take people on PAT and have them doing roving repair/maintenance teams on basic 1st line stuff which is great, which needs some experienced techs to supervise/coordinate (but could be done by a retired Martech as a civvie).

All the 3 trades that got smashed into martech relied on OJT, so there is an ingrained culture of mentoring people, and most people really enjoy that (personally find it really rewarding as an MSEO as well), but they are stretched so thin they don't have anywhere near as much time as they would like to do it properly. I think cutting back the opsched and crewing ships to sustainable levels would help that a lot, and it's nuts that MSEDs of 30 instead of 60 is now normal for sailing outside of deployements.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sort of; there used to be some steamers that were the training fleet that basically did this. The ship would get activated during the day, maintenance would get done, famil with equipment etc, then shut down. I think a few of them sailed in local areas (like a trip down to Boston, Bermuda etc and back) but was pretty limited.

The coasts have a program to take people on PAT and have them doing roving repair/maintenance teams on basic 1st line stuff which is great, which needs some experienced techs to supervise/coordinate (but could be done by a retired Martech as a civvie).

All the 3 trades that got smashed into martech relied on OJT, so there is an ingrained culture of mentoring people, and most people really enjoy that (personally find it really rewarding as an MSEO as well), but they are stretched so thin they don't have anywhere near as much time as they would like to do it properly. I think cutting back the opsched and crewing ships to sustainable levels would help that a lot, and it's nuts that MSEDs of 30 instead of 60 is now normal for sailing outside of deployements.

This is basically FRE for the foreseeable future, but she wont be getting underway for any training cruises anytime soon.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Sort of; there used to be some steamers that were the training fleet that basically did this. The ship would get activated during the day, maintenance would get done, famil with equipment etc, then shut down. I think a few of them sailed in local areas (like a trip down to Boston, Bermuda etc and back) but was pretty limited.

The coasts have a program to take people on PAT and have them doing roving repair/maintenance teams on basic 1st line stuff which is great, which needs some experienced techs to supervise/coordinate (but could be done by a retired Martech as a civvie).

All the 3 trades that got smashed into martech relied on OJT, so there is an ingrained culture of mentoring people, and most people really enjoy that (personally find it really rewarding as an MSEO as well), but they are stretched so thin they don't have anywhere near as much time as they would like to do it properly. I think cutting back the opsched and crewing ships to sustainable levels would help that a lot, and it's nuts that MSEDs of 30 instead of 60 is now normal for sailing outside of deployements.

Are you talking about HTS St Croix? (HTS stands for Harbour Training Ship, BTW).

Once turned into the training ship, she never sailed again. In fact, her screws were removed and replaced with some sort of mechanism that would create resistance equivalent to the screws but generate no forward or reverse momentum specifically so the power plant could be run through the full range of power while sitting alongside.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Are you talking about HTS St Croix? (HTS stands for Harbour Training Ship, BTW).

Once turned into the training ship, she never sailed again. In fact, her screws were removed and replaced with some sort of mechanism that would create resistance equivalent to the screws but generate no forward or reverse momentum specifically so the power plant could be run through the full range of power while sitting alongside.

Thanks, that's the one. I think a few other ships have been turned into low tempo training vessels as well at certain points (like ATH near end of life and FRE currently).

The way the 5 year operational cycle is being pushed to 7-8 years though is extremely ad hoc, so pretty happy to be out of the TA side as we would usually get asked about waiving things that shouldn't be waived or delayed, especially on a 30+ year old platform that hasn't been well maintained.