Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Edward Campbell]

As I recall there was no shortage of people wanting to sign up for infantry during Afghanistan? I suspect people join to do something dangerous and different.

I think someone here said, back in the A'stan days, that young people, young men, especially were lined up outside the recruiting office doors and that it wasn't hard, once they were in, to persuade them to go wherever they were needed: navy, army or air. I stoped reading the recruiting pages years and years ago.

 

[KevinB]

You are correct...up to a point.

I don’t have stats with me but I’m assuming there was some point in the GWOT where US recruiting dipped. There was “stop-loss” around the 2008 timeframe so I would guess around then too.

Yes and no, stop-loss was initiated in certain trades not due to recruiting issues, but pipeline times.

GWOT saw the Language part of the 18 series MOS disappear from the pipeline as 18months to get a new SF SSgt was deemed excessive enough without another 6month delay.

We needed more Officers and NCO’s in 11X and 19X series positions as while numbers where growing, you can’t make units out of young PFC’s.

Some years also saw some very impressive bonuses for re-upping, IVO of $250k for some USASOC 18_ and 11B Staff NCO’s.

I’m not sure of what the other services were at.

 

[quadrapiper]

Yes and no, stop-loss was initiated in certain trades not due to recruiting issues, but pipeline times.

GWOT saw the Language part of the 18 series MOS disappear from the pipeline as 18months to get a new SF SSgt was deemed excessive enough without another 6month delay.

We needed more Officers and NCO’s in 11X and 19X series positions as while numbers where growing, you can’t make units out of young PFC’s.

Some years also saw some very impressive bonuses for re-upping, IVO of $250k for some USASOC 18_ and 11B Staff NCO’s.

I’m not sure of what the other services were at.

Re: 18 series, were those people heading into roles where that breadth of training would have been useful?

 

[KevinB]

Re: 18 series, were those people heading into roles where that breadth of training would have been useful?

Yes, unfortunately IMHO Army SF sold itself down the DA river following Admiral Bill McRaven’s ‘Every SoF mission is a DA’ mindset — so instead of actually doing FID, they where busy playing doorkicker.

Then had to resort to using interpreters, which hampered field results ever since.

MARSOC paid close attention and boosted languages and HumInt and stole a lot of USASOC lunch money.

 

[quadrapiper]

Yes, unfortunately IMHO Army SF sold itself down the DA river following Admiral Bill McRaven’s ‘Every SoF mission is a DA’ mindset — so instead of actually doing FID, they where busy playing doorkicker.

Then had to resort to using interpreters, which hampered field results ever since.

MARSOC paid close attention and boosted languages and HumInt and stole a lot of USASOC lunch money.

Thanks! I'd got a vague impression of a trend towards doorkicking, but it's way outside of my world.

Well played by MARSOC. Makes sense with the whole Pacific shift in that force.

Drift: wonder if the SEALs will ever become so politically poisonous, expensive, or awkward that some SECDEF or NAV shifts their role to an element of MARSOC.

 

[KevinB]

Thanks! I'd got a vague impression of a trend towards doorkicking, but it's way outside of my world.

Well played by MARSOC. Makes sense with the whole Pacific shift in that force.

Drift: wonder if the SEALs will ever become so politically poisonous, expensive, or awkward that some SECDEF or NAV shifts their role to an element of MARSOC.

MARSOC at the time was living on borrowed time, the SEAL’s saw them as a threat and wanted them gone, so MARSOC was looking for missions to set them apart.

SEAL’s had never been interested in FID and HumInt, so when MARSOC went that way, they were happy.

MARSOC is setup a lot more like Army SF, with Detachments sized like an ODA. SEAL’s are setup in larger formations more suited to Direct Action missions.

SEAL’s have little overlap with MARSOC, so it’s unlikely that any threat to their mission or existence exists. While BUD/S has come under scrutiny, it is reform the service chiefs and Sec level folks want, not elimination.

 

[Kirkhill]

MARSOC is setup a lot more like Army SF, with Detachments sized like an ODA.

That seems a lot more in keeping with the concept of the Littoral Regiments. I get the sense that a lot of that effort is of those marines as something between coast-watchers and FOOs/JFACs. Individually the reinforced platoons are of no threat to the locals, with whom they are going to have to rely on and with whom they are going to need friendly relations. The platoons are going to using the locals as sensors to let them know what threats are in the area.

At the same time, the platoons have access to weapons that can remove threats at long distances but which have limited value against the locals among whom they are deployed. A two hundred kilometer NSM and a 500 km PrSM is not going to be particularly effective against a local village.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Watching the major refit of the CCG icebreaker with new engines, etc. I have to wonder with so many hulls tied up, would it be a good idea to do a major refit a couple of the MCDV's, with new engines, accommodations, sensors weapons, deck layout and equipment. this would be a opportunity to test out some ideas for the replacement fleet and also make the ships more automated so they can operate with a smaller crew? From a political perspective it means more work for the smaller yards, translating into jobs and good news stories.

 

[YZT580]

Watching the major refit of the CCG icebreaker with new engines, etc. I have to wonder with so many hulls tied up, would it be a good idea to do a major refit a couple of the MCDV's, with new engines, accommodations, sensors weapons, deck layout and equipment. this would be a opportunity to test out some ideas for the replacement fleet and also make the ships more automated so they can operate with a smaller crew? From a political perspective it means more work for the smaller yards, translating into jobs and good news stories.

except the cost of the repair will come off of the capital budget at the same time as management is trying to find a billion dollars in savings. You will end up with a half-assed refurbished (at the lowest bid price) MCDV fleet and a replacement fleet sometime in the 2040 range.

 

[KevinB]

That seems a lot more in keeping with the concept of the Littoral Regiments. I get the sense that a lot of that effort is of those marines as something between coast-watchers and FOOs/JFACs. Individually the reinforced platoons are of no threat to the locals, with whom they are going to have to rely on and with whom they are going to need friendly relations. The platoons are going to using the locals as sensors to let them know what threats are in the area.

At the same time, the platoons have access to weapons that can remove threats at long distances but which have limited value against the locals among whom they are deployed. A two hundred kilometer NSM and a 500 km PrSM is not going to be particularly effective against a local village.

Don’t try to draw parallels between the MLR’s and MARSOC, then mission sets are different as is funding/training and equipment/support.

There is some overlap, but SoF isn’t CF nor vice versa.

 

[Kirkhill]

Don’t try to draw parallels between the MLR’s and MARSOC, then mission sets are different as is funding/training and equipment/support.

There is some overlap, but SoF isn’t CF nor vice versa.

Civil Military relations are universal.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

except the cost of the repair will come off of the capital budget at the same time as management is trying to find a billion dollars in savings. You will end up with a half-assed refurbished (at the lowest bid price) MCDV fleet and a replacement fleet sometime in the 2040 range.

We return billions from the defense budget every year. Plan out the changes, identify the vessels and yards that can do it and then in the next budget you can act on it and not affect the NSS budgets.

 

[KevinB]

Civil Military relations are universal.

They really aren’t, but they are also multi faceted

 

[YZT580]

We return billions from the defense budget every year. Plan out the changes, identify the vessels and yards that can do it and then in the next budget you can act on it and not affect the NSS budgets.

the GOC can't get public relations accolades from returning unspent money. To be effective PR it has to be sliced from an active programme and shown as such. Your comment is not only valid but worth chasing except the way it will appear is as follows: 'In order to meet treasury board objectives and reduce unnecessary spending during these trying times, the DND has postponed the initial phases of the MCDV replacelment programme until 2030. In the next six months we will be consulting with industry on the best options to upgrade our current fleet to ensure that our war fighters have the necessary tools to accomplish their mission .' or words to that effect. Notice that the wording doesn't commit the GOC to any action other than talk. They are really good at that.
Seriously though, if they could be trusted what you suggest makes a lot of sense except that in the time needed to re-build what we current have, industry could select, and build a new fleet provided they kept changes to a minimum. VARD and Heddle have an OPV design that could theoretically be given the green light and construction initiated.

 

[dapaterson]

We return billions from the defense budget every year. Plan out the changes, identify the vessels and yards that can do it and then in the next budget you can act on it and not affect the NSS budgets.

No. Defence reprofiles capital funds to future years when they are not needed in current years. Much of the vote 1 slippage is normaly reprofiled to the following fiscal year (through the OBCF, operating budget carry forward).

 

[Stoker]

Watching the major refit of the CCG icebreaker with new engines, etc. I have to wonder with so many hulls tied up, would it be a good idea to do a major refit a couple of the MCDV's, with new engines, accommodations, sensors weapons, deck layout and equipment. this would be a opportunity to test out some ideas for the replacement fleet and also make the ships more automated so they can operate with a smaller crew? From a political perspective it means more work for the smaller yards, translating into jobs and good news stories.

New engines from a different manufacturer was looked at years ago and was ultimately cancelled, they simply went to Wartsila and bought 24 new replacement engines and as they fail they get swapped out. New automated systems were also looked at to lower the amount of personnel needed to run the ship, ultimately determined to be not cost effective. A replacement for the 40mm was looked at and beyond one system that leaked like a sieve it didn't pan out. The ship has new radars and had trialed a new IFR camera system, again determined to be not needed. Accommodations are fine. The ship could trial new payloads for a Kingston Class replacement.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

New engines from a different manufacturer was looked at years ago and was ultimately cancelled, they simply went to Wartsila and bought 24 new replacement engines and as they fail they get swapped out. New automated systems were also looked at to lower the amount of personnel needed to run the ship, ultimately determined to be not cost effective. A replacement for the 40mm was looked at and beyond one system that leaked like a sieve it didn't pan out. The ship has new radars and had trialed a new IFR camera system, again determined to be not needed. Accommodations are fine. The ship could trial new payloads for a Kingston Class replacement.

As I recall the RWS system trial was done on the cheap. It's very likely there won't be a replacement for quite sometime. So the plan is to wait till it's an absolute crisis than act?

 

[Stoker]

As I recall the RWS system trial was done on the cheap. It's very likely there won't be a replacement for quite sometime. So the plan is to wait till it's an absolute crisis than act?

Two systems was trialed, one in Summerside in 2006 which was for the ones ultimately fitted in the Halifax Class. The other was a Nanuk mount that was waterproofed and trialed in GBY. There will never be a replacement as they are simply not needed for the risks they encounter. I would rather have a better ROD system or BW system. Perhaps better satellite TV.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Two systems was trialed, one in Summerside in 2006 which was for the ones ultimately fitted in the Halifax Class. The other was a Nanuk mount that was waterproofed and trialed in GBY. There will never be a replacement as they are simply not needed for the risks they encounter. I would rather have a better ROD system or BW system. Perhaps better satellite TV.

I was referring to the general state of the ships. I know they are not to bad now, but in 10 years?

 

[Stoker]

I was referring to the general state of the ships. I know they are not to bad now, but in 10 years?

ABS did a survey on them a few years ago, good to go for 10 years. Structural certificate extended for 5 years currently for each ship. We have 3 out west that are tied up and not being used.