More "Army" in Army Cadets (combat training, etc.)

[rmc_wannabe]

I like to stay away from these kinds of discussions because often I feel it reverts to the constant "it was so much better back in..." battle.

However, being said I do have some ideas:

OVERHAUL OF THE CIC BRANCH

In my experience working with the CIC, there are people I can work with and people I cannot. Ultimately, I cannot and will not refer to these people as officers. At least military ones.

There seems to be an attitude that they are not really in the CF or that they are and have an extremely skewed impression of what it means to be in the CF. Most of this is due to the fact that the training of CIC members is done by other CIC officers.

I would reccommend that  BMOQ should not be instructed by fellow CIC members. What better way to initially curb systemic problems within an organization than to involve persons at the ground level who are not overly involved emotionally in the organization? A Res or Reg Snr NCO is not part of the CIC old boys club. If a candidate is out of dress or screwing up somewhere, they will be very prompt and direct in telling them so. By all means, for MOC training have it done by a CIC officer, but make sure they have a concrete basic training in military life from someone in the military.

Secondly, I would recommend that things such as Universality of Service and Physical Fitness apply to CIC members. Too often I have seen CIC members that do not have a level of fitness required to participate in some of the activities they are trying to get their cadets to participate in. This completely undermines the "lead by example" responsibility of a superior. When I was volunteering with a Corps, I was the only adult staff participating in the fitness testing with the cadets. This not only motivated some of the cadets who normally didn't participate, but it gave the cadets a role model to try to follow. Which brings me to my second point...


REG/RES FORCE INVOLVEMENT (MORESO)

Some units provide excellent support to their cadet corps (LdSH(RC) comes to mind). Others do not.

A lot of the time I would find the LO from the Affiliated unit was the only person that was involved in anything the cadet unit was doing. This was either due to apathy from both COs or a lack of understanding of what activities are in each others respective arcs. A parade twice a year doesn't give either organization much of a face to the other.

I would reccommend with the Jr NCM level (closely supervised of course) with cadet organizations to help mentor cadets in things they are superior in compared to the CIC officers instructing them in (i.e. Map and Compass, Fieldcraft, Marksmanship). A lot of Reg/Res Force personnel I know look down on cadets, however I do not.

The cadet you look down upon is probably the most likely person to be the FNG when the time comes. You reap what you sew in this case. I was astonished to find a former cadet I helped mentor as a Reg force Adult staff sitting in the canteen of my unit. You can start them out right in every opportunity you're given... or let the system in place bastardize their training and then you're molding someone with bad habits.



Ultimately, this is just my experience. I'm sure everyone could argue for or against any portion of what I just stated, however I can say one thing that rings true in any facet:

If you want to put the "Army(Sea, Air)" back into cadets, then put it back systematically into the training of CIC and the mentoring of cadets.

Just my  :2c:

 

[Scott]

Really? How many times is this going to come up?  What? Upset because some kid who probably spent the last two years of his life working towards a chance at competing for one of the 50 or so slots on course, out of how many cadets that meet the age across the entire country, got on a course that you didn't?

I'm not even going to waste my time to read your profile.  You have to compete with what? Your platoon? Company at best?  If your unit can't get slots on para courses, then they probably don't require paratroopers... If theydoneed spots, and they just aren't getting offered to you..... Best get up on that chin up bar and work to set yourself up to shine against your mates.

Every time there is a thread on this site re: para, wings, or JTF-2, some putz with an attitude comes on here being all bitter about kids getting the opportunity to strive for something really great.  I can personally attest to the fact that cadet programs offering things such as para, gliding etc, really go a long way with helping at risk youth keep focused and on the right track.  Can't have a problem with that can you?

Actually, it seems to me like you went on the bigger rant about it. But then I didn't read what Hurricane said and take it out of context.

Cheer up a bit, k?

Staff

 

[Neill McKay]

You want to be more army than that? My  :2c: join the reserves when you come of age.

That's a popular argument, but the fact remains that there's a pretty substantial body of belief among army cadets that they're lost a lot of the military aspect of their programme so it doesn't offer much by way of a solution.

I agree that the answer is not section attacks and bigger weapons, but there's a lot more to the army than closing with and destroying the enemy.  I work in the sea cadet programme so I'm not an SME on army cadet training, but I've always been a proponent of their having more exposure to other areas of the army like engineering, vehicles, medical, etc.  As one example there used to be a driver-mechanic course for army cadets in which they learned to drive and perform basic service on military vehicles.  There's no end of training of that nature that could put the army back into army cadets without risking a "child soldiers" label.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Just to provide some context, here's what the Cadets.ca site says about how "military" the Cadet movement is supposed to be:

The Cadet Program is the largest federally-sponsored youth program in Canada that includes the Royal Canadian Sea, Army and Air Cadets. It is a national program for young Canadians aged 12 to 18 who are interested in participating in a variety of fun, challenging and rewarding activities while learning about the sea, army and air activities of the Canadian Forces.

In regards to these suggestions:

When a unit deploys, working with;

The rear party.
Padre.
Military Family Resource Centre
Charitable organizations like Wounded Warrior, and Soldier On.
The local Legion

the attached lesson guide from the Cadets.ca site outlines other ways to get involved (write the troops, etc.) in learning about the CF.

Another factor probably affecting how much "army" stuff Cadets can be exposed to, and what kinds, is what kind of unit (often PRes) is in or close to the smaller communities hosting Cadet units.  I remember in the 'Mo bringing senior cadets along on ex with the infantry (but that was when the earth was still cooling) because we were the closest "army" game in town.  The Army Cadet corps associated with the local Service Bn probably had more of a chance to be exposed to non-close-with-and-destroy elements of the CF.

Edited to add:  Does anyone have any experience with this group that seems to be set up to get input from serving Cadets (although I'd work on the acronym if I was in their position)?

 

[dogger1936]

I like to stay away from these kinds of discussions because often I feel it reverts to the constant "it was so much better back in..." battle.

However, being said I do have some ideas:

OVERHAUL OF THE CIC BRANCH

In my experience working with the CIC, there are people I can work with and people I cannot. Ultimately, I cannot and will not refer to these people as officers. At least military ones.

There seems to be an attitude that they are not really in the CF or that they are and have an extremely skewed impression of what it means to be in the CF. Most of this is due to the fact that the training of CIC members is done by other CIC officers.

I would reccommend that  BMOQ should not be instructed by fellow CIC members. What better way to initially curb systemic problems within an organization than to involve persons at the ground level who are not overly involved emotionally in the organization? A Res or Reg Snr NCO is not part of the CIC old boys club. If a candidate is out of dress or screwing up somewhere, they will be very prompt and direct in telling them so. By all means, for MOC training have it done by a CIC officer, but make sure they have a concrete basic training in military life from someone in the military.

Secondly, I would recommend that things such as Universality of Service and Physical Fitness apply to CIC members. Too often I have seen CIC members that do not have a level of fitness required to participate in some of the activities they are trying to get their cadets to participate in. This completely undermines the "lead by example" responsibility of a superior. When I was volunteering with a Corps, I was the only adult staff participating in the fitness testing with the cadets. This not only motivated some of the cadets who normally didn't participate, but it gave the cadets a role model to try to follow. Which brings me to my second point...


REG/RES FORCE INVOLVEMENT (MORESO)

Some units provide excellent support to their cadet corps (LdSH(RC) comes to mind). Others do not.

A lot of the time I would find the LO from the Affiliated unit was the only person that was involved in anything the cadet unit was doing. This was either due to apathy from both COs or a lack of understanding of what activities are in each others respective arcs. A parade twice a year doesn't give either organization much of a face to the other.

I would reccommend with the Jr NCM level (closely supervised of course) with cadet organizations to help mentor cadets in things they are superior in compared to the CIC officers instructing them in (i.e. Map and Compass, Fieldcraft, Marksmanship). A lot of Reg/Res Force personnel I know look down on cadets, however I do not.

The cadet you look down upon is probably the most likely person to be the FNG when the time comes. You reap what you sew in this case. I was astonished to find a former cadet I helped mentor as a Reg force Adult staff sitting in the canteen of my unit. You can start them out right in every opportunity you're given... or let the system in place bastardize their training and then you're molding someone with bad habits.



Ultimately, this is just my experience. I'm sure everyone could argue for or against any portion of what I just stated, however I can say one thing that rings true in any facet:

If you want to put the "Army(Sea, Air)" back into cadets, then put it back systematically into the training of CIC and the mentoring of cadets.

Just my  :2c:

100% correct
Placing reg force WO's and Sgt's into the cadets however corrects nothing. CIC like it or not hold a commission same as a reg force officer and when push comes to shove they outrank you and there is nothing you can do to fix the old boys club system they have created....believe me I have and am attempting to try to no avail.

I dont think extra training by reg force officer would be effective, economically or institutionally. To fix this system CIC officers need to lose their commission and be administered by reg and per's reserve. However as I stated earlier when CIC officers are ACO's in a position that should be held by a reg officer it defeats the purpose of having snr ncos there to ensure guidelines are met. No CIC officers should be ACO's. ACO';s should be regular force officers who dont have to worry about losing their B class fancy job. Their only worry would be the implimentation of the program. Then the ACA's could focus on ensuring the standards are kept, and aide the corps with our knowledge.

I have seen what this program is and it is not following the program set out in the QSP's.

CIC officers are for the most part great people in their communities doing something for their communities. However the LHQ's are full of B class buddies who will never enforce anything and are stonewalling ACA's from doing their jobs.

Thats the truth of the program.

 

[Neill McKay]

Edited to add:  Does anyone have any experience with this group that seems to be set up to get input from serving Cadets (although I'd work on the acronym if I was in their position)?

No direct experience, but you're correct about its purpose.  Interest from cadets was solicited last year (and presumably will continue to be periodically).

dogger1936: You have, I'll guess, something in the order of two or three years of experience in the cadet programme which, I'll further guess, has been in one job in one Detachment of one RCSU.  (Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.)  There are seven thousand CIC officers across the country.  I think you could dial back your rhetoric a notch; you've only seen a relatively small slice of the programme and its people.

 

[dogger1936]

I also have enough military experience to know when a simple PO/EO isn't being implemented; to name a small slice of the problem. As you stated a small slice is what I am seeing and I'm far from being impressed. It is a corrupt B class system. LSA of goods going out to corps for thousands of dollars and not tracked or placed on a SCA.I was sent here to #1 recover from injuries and #2 enforce standards and ensure the program is being implemented.

There is no rhetoric involved. CIC should not have commissions; what purpose does it really serve? From my view point as someone who came into the cadet program wit ha open mind and a desire to ensure quality; we are blocked by a commission and a old boys club. A CIC commission does nothing but pad certain peoples ego's...which does nothing for the Program, corp or most importantly the kids.

It would be a great start to enforce standards that can be blocked within LHQ's as is happening now.

And as I said earlier do not get me totally wrong. there are amasing people in this program who are 100% in this not for the money but to make better future citizens of canada. However a LHQ who blocks the snr nco's from ensuring this plan is followed as "Bill and steve" are their buddies is a corrupt broken system.

All is left for us as ACA's to do is not complete the RCP1's due to improper use of funds. And who does that hurt? a CIC CO who really doesnt know how to put the program in place and would most likely love to have your input and again the cadets.

The star program is not being followed in my area due to inaction by the HQ element due to the CIC B class corruption. Fact.

Currently in my province money is being spent like drunken sailors on LSA request that disappear into the pockets of those who order it. So many QSP's are not followed in the slightest and my ACO refuses to address the problem and the det OC is his BFF. It is a corrupt system rife with incompetence, use of funds, and Career cadet officers who are focused on TWO THINGS: Their next B class contract, and their personal advancement. Not the support of Corps, not the PROPER implementation of the program, or as i said the biggest focus which should be the children in the program.

And while I could "Dial" all that stuff back; it doesn't change the fact that CIC officers shouldn't have commissions as it serves ZERO purpose in the implementation of the cadet program.

 

[Nault_army]

The aim of the Cadet Program is to develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and leadership; promote physical fitness; and stimulate the interest of youth in the sea, land, and air elements. It isn't to militarize teenagers, for a lack of better term. Didn't you learn that in class ? You can't always get what you ask for, and this is one of these things.

 

[Rheostatic]

"the sea, land, and air elements"... of the Canadian Forces.

Surely there is an acceptable middle ground between Child Soldiers and Cub Scouts that can satisfy most.

 

[dogger1936]

IF the new program was followed it would have a great army taste to it, yet kids would be laughing and having fun. The CO's want to implement it (for the most part...some decide a bivouac site means a corporate retreat center...and are get funding for it.)

I challenge any CIC officer to follow the directives given in the star program. And complete the mandatory training!!! Years have slipped by where this was acceptable. In my eyes if you as a CO cannot successfully complete the mandatory training you will not get the complimentary training funding. Zero cents. UNFORTUNATELY the past few years going to the mall has been more important than NAV ex's in a bivouac site.

The newly developed program has taken iirc 7 years to get on the books. In writing the program looks fantastic with just enough mix of armyish stuff with a emphasis on things like expedition treking as the civilian side of the program. Unfortunately the program was developed without the thought process that 31 corps cannot get the support or resources that this new course requires. So CO's have had to try and make things work. When I looked into what was being done to ensure the corps have these resources I was met with blank stares, political speak that didnt answer anything,anger, threats, and overall.....discovered LHQ's have no desire to help out these corps.

I've been waiting for resource requests to come in from training officers......you know....the stuff you require to meet the PO/EO's of mandatory training. I've already been advised that that day will not come..... and instead they will adrep 1 arctic tent and stay at a chalet. Unfortunately its not our mandate to check up on training and when we have we have been told its the training cell in another provinces responsibility to check up on them and we had over stepped our boundaries. I will not mention the mess we found in "the field" as to not identify people.

On a lighter note I've seen some fantastic programs and adventure things I would LOVE to take part in. Great treks sea kayking etc. Unfortunately the numbers accepted is of course low. Army cadets at corps are forced to stay in chalets and learn very little, while people in LHQ jockey and accept the status quo not providing aid to the corps that they desperately need.

 

[Neill McKay]

Let's take it in bits:

I was sent here to #1 recover from injuries and #2 enforce standards and ensure the program is being implemented.

First things first, best wishes for a good recovery.  I'm glad that a meaningful position was found for you, frustrating as it may be.

The role of an ACA is to provide logistical and administrative support, not to be the standards cell and certainly not to tell a unit's officers how to do their jobs.  If it were the latter, it would be a LCdr/Maj position, not a PO1/WO position.  That's what the Det Comd is, and that's his job.  Unit COs don't work for the ACO's shop.

A CIC commission does nothing but pad certain peoples ego's...which does nothing for the Program, corp or most importantly the kids.

As currently constituted, cadet units are administered by officers.  If you want to argue that they should be administered by NCMs you may, but that argument has been long since decided by people with more stripes that you and me.  In CSTCs you will find CIC officers commanding establishments the size of a small base.  You will find CIC officers in charge of ships at sea (most notable the ORCA-class off the west coast).  And in many communities the cadet unit is the only CF presence.  Finally, most cadet units operate some distance from their Detachment.  In all of these circumstances it is appropriate for officers to be employed.

The star program is not being followed in my area due to inaction by the HQ element due to the CIC B class corruption. Fact.

In my area (and we're not too far apart -- I'm in the Atlantic region too) units that are struggling to deliver the programme are offered help.  I've just finished three years as a unit CO and have been tasked by the Det Comd to provide mentorship to the staff of a unit in the area that is having problems.  (Still Class A, and I'll be reporting to a Class A ACICO.)  It's no secret that not every unit gets the quality of staff that we would all like -- but in some areas you staff the unit with the local talent or it closes.

Currently in my province money is being spent like drunken sailors on LSA request that disappear into the pockets of those who order it.

That's something you should be bringing up the chain of command, of course, since it would, if correct, be a criminal matter.  It's not something I've ever seen in my twelve years at the coal face.  I've found everyone concerned to be very diligent with expenditures of public funds, and have never drawn a cent of LSA without thoroughly documenting my claim.  (The fin clerk -- a class B sergeant -- sees to it that everything it well squared away.)

Overall it's not a perfect system but if you ask ten cadets what they think of it, I'm confident that nine of them will tell you they love what they do.  (But they would like more "army" in the army cadets!)

I challenge any CIC officer to follow the directives given in the star program.

Accepted, and done! (But does it still count if it was a sea cadet unit?)

 

[dogger1936]

Cheer's Neil

As an ACA out here we are grading the corps, grading the CIC officers including the CO;s during the SAV visits. If I was just doing
logistic and admin I wouldn't have my nose in what I believe is a league responsibility. Why am I doing SAV visits and officer grading. I've also been asked to go out weekends on ex with the corps. So maybe there is some ACO's pushing their duties down onto the ACA's and I would love to discuss this via pm or cadetnet/dwan.

The units here are not being offered any help here. They are told to do their best, providing a crap program.


The example for LSA is a grey area in terms of expenditure management. The problem exists as corp 9999 can order 9 high speed stoves. they do not go on the SCA. And no record is kept aside from the rcp1. These things disappear somehow.
According to the rule is not suppose to be stored at peoples houses. Yet it is, and is it the corps fault? In my opinion no. the fault lies on the people who have done savs for the past eon who looked the other way. And instead of coming up with a solution to their lack of storage they allow infractions to happen as it is way easier to do nothing.

The commission gets in the way of doing the ACA job as directed here. I would love to discuss the ACA roles and TOR from your area. In my opinion we are way too far into league responsabilities, and with the responsabilities we have it's impossiable to suceed in "the mission" with a "lack" of a commission ourselves.

drop me a PM please.

 

[dogger1936]

And thanks a bunch. Im healing up a few small surgeries to go all the while getting a admin ticket punched.

The sea cadet program is an excellent program from what I've seen. Not without it's issues of course; but overall much better to conduct than the current army program.

Glad you accept the challange, which I'm sure most of you out there do strive to do.

 

[Northalbertan]

I have been a CO for the past year and Trg O of our corps for the year prior to that.  I am former service but that service was many years ago.  I am in Prairie Region, specifically Alberta.  Things are obviously done differently out in your region, for example, we no longer have ACAs. 

To receive my LSA funds I must provide receipts, proof the money was spent where it was supposed to.  The money is spent first and then reimbursed.  It goes back into the bank account our sponsoring committee has set up.  If anyone sees money going anywhere else, call the MPs.  Get an investigation started and charge someone's @#$.

I PROVIDE THE PROGRAM I HAVE BEEN TASKED TO DELIVER.  I work very hard to so, that is what the DND is paying me to do.  I have a lot of oversite to ensure I am providing that program.  Yes My ACO is a CIC officer.  A competent, knowledgeable, and professional individual who is there to assist me in delivering the program.  I have done my best to ensure a competent and professional staff helps me deliver the program at the corps level.  I have on staff myself, My Trg O who was a Lt Commander in the Royal Navy and a COATS Sgt who was a Reg Force infantryman for 23 years.  I have some CIs and one young lady who is a new member of the CIC.  I have quite a few volunteers who help out as well.  Everyone is here for the right reason.  The cadets.  Period, dot.  If anyone is here for any other reason they are simply gone. 

Yes, when the cadets do their fitness test we do too.  I have heard there is supposed to be a fitness standard coming to the CIC effective 1 April 2012.  I hope so.  I have no idea how stringent it will be but at least there will be a standard.

We perform our FTXs in the field where they are supposed to be conducted.  Sometimes in the area around our LHQ sometimes, when we have the budget to support it, in the mountains and foothills of the Rockies.

I agree with many that CIC should take at least the Reserve BMOQ.  I am guessing budgetary restraints come into play here, and some may ask why we need it if we are leading kids.

In regards to the CIC being commissioned officers and is that necessary?  I don't know.  There are people who have far more experience and hold far more rank than I do who must think that a commission is necessary or I would be an NCM, I have been an NCM and so have no actual problem with that if that were their decision.  With COATS coming in we can now have NCMs at the corps level.  As I mentioned above I employ one, he holds a postion on my slate and has the same responsibilities as a CIC officer.  He is a great addition to our staff and I believe is instrumental in our delivery of the program to the standard that we are.

I have met some officers of the type Dogger 1936 has described.  I don't like them.  I agree that those of this ilk should not hold a commission.  I have also met the other kind.  The kind who are respectful of NCMs, take their jobs seriously and behave as an officer should.  In our corps we are more than willing to take advice from an individual with 20 plus years experience in the CF regardless of rank.

One thing bugs me.  I just love how everytime a thread gets started that involves the CIC in any manner X amount of people go off on a rant on how the CIC is crappy, incompetent, out of shape, #$@holes.  I am a CIC officer and I am none of that.  I take pride in what I do and I think I do it well.  There are 7000 of us, quit painting all of us with the same brush.  I have met some senior NCMs who are complete #$@k ups and I don't think the whole senior NCO corps of the CF (sorry, Canadian Army) are complete boobs.

Simple solution to "more army in army cadets".  Good affiliated unit support.  Just show up, doesn't have to be every parade night, and let the cadet corps know you know they exist.  I like to have the affiliated unit hand out cap badges when our cadets "qualify" for them.  Have a member teach the regimental history to the cadets.  Give the kids that connection.  Yes a little C7 time is appreciated.

The program works if the staff at the LHQ do their jobs and get the support they require from the RCSUs.  We get that support, we deliver the program.  It is a lot of work, if you do it right.  It is worth it.

To Dogger 1936:  Thanks for putting the effort in.  There are some of us who appreciate what you guys do for us.  Sorry a few have made a bad impression on you.  If your COs aren't taking advantage of your experience, their loss.

 

[Northern Ranger]

First, I love the Cadets, my daughter has been in them for two years and my son is joining this year.  The self esteem that the kids get from this program and the sense of responsibility is awesome, the CIC officers in her corps are great, lacking funding from the major sponsor, they had been paying the rent out of their pockets for a few years for the school gym that they parade at.  I am now part of the parent committee and we are raising funds to pay them back.  There is no need to have any more "Army" put in the Corps that already is.  I have nothing bad to say about the CIC officers in the Corps.....

CIC officers that are filling staff postions outside of the youth program, i.e. EA to a Comd , need to give their heads a shake, thinking that they are anything other than a Commissioned Officer that should be working in a Youth Program, takes away all the hard work that our current officers have put into the current Officer Corps.

Your commissioned to take care of my kids in a youth program, it doesn't need to be more army, just make sure that you send them home at the end of the day feeling proud to belong to a great nation with great traditions, I have seen the effort that the CIC group in the local two Corps do and the crap that they have to deal with from some of the kids that are in the Corps because mom and dad said they have to be there.  It can be a thankless job and I would like to publicly thank them for doing what they do.  Thanks.

 

[chrisf]

We've done little bits and pieces over the years for our affiliated corps. Take out some radio gear, spent a night teaching VP and did a VP ex with the radios. We've brought a few senior cadets+CIC officers out on a few exercises as well (I don't know if it's something that we were "allowed" to do or not, I really don't care, all parties involved seemed pleased)

I'm confident there's plenty the army can do to keep the "army" in "army cadets" without crossing the "child soldiers" line...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As a reserve unit our cadet corp would select cadets who would work with us on the 105mm as part of the gun crews, they did very well and many went on to join the reserves and regs. Cadet units used to a place where kids who wanted to join the reserves/regs went to learn skills and slowly become part of the parent unit.
While changes in the way the leadership operates may be required. I suspect that educating parents as to what cadets are supposed to do is part of the problem. When I was a cadet, training with firearms was normal even for a sea cadet.

 

[Pusser]

And while I could "Dial" all that stuff back; it doesn't change the fact that CIC officers shouldn't have commissions as it serves ZERO purpose in the implementation of the cadet program.

I can't agree with that statement.  Not only do CIC officer have real commissions, I believe they should.  The management of a youth program is important enough that it requires an appropriate level of leadership and that level exists within the commissioned ranks.  Don't let a few bad apples allow you to draw a negative impression of the entire Branch.

The problems you have described are not unique to COATS.  I can tell you as a Logistics officer that fudged claims, poor management of SCAs and LSA and fumbled administration exist everywhere across the CF, but no one is saying that officers in infantry batallions, air squadrons or ships at sea shouldn't be commissioned.  Those of us in the audit business do our best to find and correct these things, but it is a neverending task.  Luckily, most people want to do the right thing, so correcting problems isn't usually too difficult.  The most frustrating part  is having to re-invent the wheel everytime we go through a posting cycle.

Yes, there is an old-boys network at play in some parts of the CIC, but the same can be said of many Reserve units as well.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Remember also that commissions are not just about priviledge for officers, they are also tools for holding them accountable.  Because CIC officers are members of the CF and because they are commissioned, the full weight of the QR&O can be brought to bear should they stray outside the lines.  Not only are they subject to criminal prosecution for transgressions, they are also subject to the Code of Service Discipline, which itself is harder on officers than it is on NCMs.

 

[dapaterson]

Yes, there is an old-boys network at play in some parts of the CIC, but the same can be said of many Reserve units and Regular Force branches as well.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Fixed that for you.

 

[ballz]

The management of a youth program is important enough that it requires an appropriate level of leadership and that level exists within the commissioned ranks.

This argument sucks. The standard of leadership to which they are awarding a commission to CIC officers is quite different from the standard of leadership they are measuring Reg and PRes officers by. I know you are not doing so on purpose, but it comes across as you saying that a CIC officer makes for a better leader because he holds a commission than if he did not have one. That sure isn't true, because while a commission is an important piece of paper, it is still a piece of paper and does not change or add to the character of a man (or woman). And if it's easy to obtain, it means a lot less to the holder.

Remember also that commissions are not just about priviledge for officers, they are also tools for holding them accountable.  Because CIC officers are members of the CF and because they are commissioned, the full weight of the QR&O can be brought to bear should they stray outside the lines.  Not only are they subject to criminal prosecution for transgressions, they are also subject to the Code of Service Discipline, which itself is harder on officers than it is on NCMs.

This is a way better argument, and something I had not thought of before.