"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[lawandorder]

It amazes me that so many people think they can still tell the Military Police how to do their job or how not to do their job without having any experience, recent or otherwise, in dealing with them besides being pulled over.

For the member who stated that the CF should get "real police".  Try explaining to an Ontario constable that he should write a report up on a lost NDI 20 because its lost public property.  Or that a member should be arrested for being involved in a quarrel or fray.  They won't, and the don't care and its not worth the time.  Oh and by the way, cancel all major purchases in the CF because Civilian Constables expects to be paid almost double what a Cpl 4 makes.  That doesn't include overtime or court pay.  MP's are also "Peace Officers".  Want better experienced ones?  Don't promote them and extend their Cpl pay increment past 4.  Once you hit Sgt, sometimes MCpl, your patrolling days are gone, generally.  The 6 month trainng program at CFMPA is an excellent package and I would put a Rookie MP up against a Rookie of any other Police Service.

Also the history of the CProC and MP's bleed in to that of the RCMP because many of the NWMP acted as CProC in both the great wars.  They were the defacto Military Police if I am not mistaken.  But that was a long time ago and Policing has changed, both inside and outside of the Military. Also any argument that says the RCMP can do the job of an MP and one of your References is the Boer War, rethink the argument.

While I don't have time to go through and collect all the posters quotes, someone else mentioned that there is no field work anymore. There is a fairly well stocked field platoon in Petawawa right now.  I guess they don't count. Probably in Edmonton and Valcartier too, but I guess they don’t count.  Most of the reserve platoons also focus on field work.  I guess they don't count.  Rout Signing is still taught at the school, but look what happened to American Private Jessica Lynch.  Yep, the bad guys moved some rout signs around.  Ooops!

As for Bn MP's and the Sheriffs, I think it is a shame they aren't there and is a disservice.

I have seen sloppy road moves, mostly because MP's aren't requested at the higher level, so the base Provo isn't even invited to the O Group, and when MP's are involved, the Convoy Commander, and Crew Commanders don't follow direction.  They drive too fast, sometimes take different routes then indicated, and try and lead their packet off early.  It may be a Jr Cpl with an orange traffic wand telling you to stop, but he has the timings list.

As for fat MP's, yep they're their.  But so are Fat armour guys, Fat Infantry guys, Fat clerks, Fat Cooks, Fat Supply techs.....I'm not picking on anyone but it is what it is.

 

[Journeyman]

It amazes me ...

Feeling better now?  op:


If you feel that an untoward number of people are picking on the MP branch, then perhaps there is a problem with the service provided.

 

[lawandorder]

Feeling better now?  op:


If you feel that an untoward number of people are picking on the MP branch, then perhaps there is a problem with the service provided.

Absolutely.  And hopefully the new MP C2 can help correct that.

 

[aesop081]

And hopefully the new MP C2 can help correct that.

Stovepipes rarely do.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Uhhhhh, have you guys seen the RCMP lately?

I'd like to stay as far away from them as possible thanks.

 

[Dissident]

L&O, we do have Reg Force field platoons, but I have generally been underwhelmed by the proficiency demonstrated by those. Being a reservist for not quite 10 years, what we focused on in my formative years was the field side of the house. Sure, the combat arms trade re muster were head an shoulders above anything I will ever achieve, but somehow the sum of these parts always seem lackluster. There is a difference between having field platoon survive in the field and having a true field capable platoon.

To be fair: I/We use to be quite proud of having field proficient troops/platoon in the reserve, but with attrition, cuts in the training time, Afghanistan deployements and the transient refocus on domestic police ops, I am now surrounded by a couple of generations of Ptes and Cpls who are barely qualified to run a Coleman stove, never mind the rest of the IBTS. Which embarrasses me a great deal.

I have seen sloppy road moves, mostly because MP's aren't requested at the higher level, so the base Provo isn't even invited to the O Group, and when MP's are involved, the Convoy Commander, and Crew Commanders don't follow direction.  They drive too fast, sometimes take different routes then indicated, and try and lead their packet off early.  It may be a Jr Cpl with an orange traffic wand telling you to stop, but he has the timings list.

I don't know anything about the coordination at higher levels, but yes absolutely, the responsibility of the sloppy road moves should not solely be rested at the feet of the trade. A lot/most/all of the problems with road moves that I have seen were not the results of individual or section lack of skills. (Maybe some MPs could learn to be a touch more forcefull, others more diplomatic?) Typically the problems were as you stated: Convoy commander diregarding the timetable, packet speed and in general just doing as they pleased.

All in all L&O, that was a very good post, if a touch defensive.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I guess that my criticism was observing several outright refusals by certain MP Units to participate and assist in traffic control duties on some recent rather large scale road moves that I recently observed.  The unspoken subtext seemed to be that it wasn't "real" police work...

If that attitude spreads throughout CFMP Gp, the question might very well begin to be asked- why are we paying for a second federal police force that does essentially the same thing as the first (the RCMP)?

I want to make it clear that I am a big supporter of the MPs- so long as they remember that the "M" is there for a very important reason.  If CFMP Gp focusses on policing, to exclusion of all else, then I feel that they will create an existential threat to the very concept of MPs in the CF.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have seen sloppy road moves, mostly because MP's aren't requested at the higher level, so the base Provo isn't even invited to the O Group, and when MP's are involved, the Convoy Commander, and Crew Commanders don't follow direction.  They drive too fast, sometimes take different routes then indicated, and try and lead their packet off early.  It may be a Jr Cpl with an orange traffic wand telling you to stop, but he has the timings list.

And I've seen road moves set up by MP's that are absolute goat rodeos. Even though it's not rocket science.

Armoured Recce does TCPs as part of their RAS taskings and BTS and are extremely adept at them. There is no fancy police training needed.

 

[Dissident]

Armoured Recce does TCPs as part of their RAS taskings and BTS and are extremely adept at them. There is no fancy police training needed.

Awesome! Take it over!

 

[OldSolduer]

It amazes me that so many people think they can still tell the Military Police how to do their job or how not to do their job without having any experience, recent or otherwise, in dealing with them besides being pulled over.

For the member who stated that the CF should get "real police".  Try explaining to an Ontario constable that he should write a report up on a lost NDI 20 because its lost public property.  Or that a member should be arrested for being involved in a quarrel or fray.  They won't, and the don't care and its not worth the time.  Oh and by the way, cancel all major purchases in the CF because Civilian Constables expects to be paid almost double what a Cpl 4 makes.  That doesn't include overtime or court pay.  MP's are also "Peace Officers".  Want better experienced ones?  Don't promote them and extend their Cpl pay increment past 4.  Once you hit Sgt, sometimes MCpl, your patrolling days are gone, generally.  The 6 month trainng program at CFMPA is an excellent package and I would put a Rookie MP up against a Rookie of any other Police Service.

Also the history of the CProC and MP's bleed in to that of the RCMP because many of the NWMP acted as CProC in both the great wars.  They were the defacto Military Police if I am not mistaken.  But that was a long time ago and Policing has changed, both inside and outside of the Military. Also any argument that says the RCMP can do the job of an MP and one of your References is the Boer War, rethink the argument.

While I don't have time to go through and collect all the posters quotes, someone else mentioned that there is no field work anymore. There is a fairly well stocked field platoon in Petawawa right now.  I guess they don't count. Probably in Edmonton and Valcartier too, but I guess they don’t count.  Most of the reserve platoons also focus on field work.  I guess they don't count.  Rout Signing is still taught at the school, but look what happened to American Private Jessica Lynch.  Yep, the bad guys moved some rout signs around.  Ooops!

As for Bn MP's and the Sheriffs, I think it is a shame they aren't there and is a disservice.

I have seen sloppy road moves, mostly because MP's aren't requested at the higher level, so the base Provo isn't even invited to the O Group, and when MP's are involved, the Convoy Commander, and Crew Commanders don't follow direction.  They drive too fast, sometimes take different routes then indicated, and try and lead their packet off early.  It may be a Jr Cpl with an orange traffic wand telling you to stop, but he has the timings list.

As for fat MP's, yep they're their.  But so are Fat armour guys, Fat Infantry guys, Fat clerks, Fat Cooks, Fat Supply techs.....I'm not picking on anyone but it is what it is.

A bit sensitive are we? Then I would really like it if everyone outside the infantry would do the same as you ask of anyone not a Military Police NCM or officer.

 

[Tow Tripod]

I'm not fat! My mother said I was Big Boned!!

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm guessing that we've lost an appreciation for what MPs do because we're not a big enough Army. I can't imagine a civilian cop handling thousands of PWs or doing even the basics of an MP's job in a field situation. The thought of having to rely on the RCMP vs. a real 'Army' cop is truly horrifying.

 

[McG]

The thought of having to rely on the RCMP vs. a real 'Army' cop is truly horrifying.

But, if we transfered the garrison policing mandate to RCMP, would that allow what is left of the MP to better focus on the specific military needs of the work?

 

[daftandbarmy]

But, if we transfered the garrison policing mandate to RCMP, would that allow what is left of the MP to better focus on the specific military needs of the work?

I see the advantages, but I can't get my head around someone who is not a soldier arresting a soldier on a military base. I've seen civvy police try to over exert their authority on military establishments before, and they've cause far more harm than good.

I'd prefer to give the MPs the trust, resources and training they need to do their jobs right on the base, and make sure they can liase effectively with civilian police off the base as required.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and to be blunt, with over 9 years on this site, the lack of respect that a rather large number of posters have shown for civilian law enforcement desn't bode well for having civi cops on the base either.

 

[Dissident]

Would the RCMP be willing to locally adapt their policing models? Would they be willing to use the local CF CoC to solve some of the issues?

You have to imagine that an RCMP detachment would be mostly composed of members posted in and out every 4-5 years, from the patrol constable to the staff sergeant. Would they be able to gain and maintain the corporate knowledge of how best to deal with members of different units/ships and their RSM/SSM/Coxswain? Would they care too?

I am really curious about this now and will engage the people I know about their thoughts on this.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

In my experience*, the RCMP locally adopts its policing model in any detachment that serves a municipality or province, as each area has local and provincial statutes and bylaws that need to be learned by incoming officers to adequately police the populace.  That being said, there are many more cultural differences in a military environment versus a civilian town, which would probably be harder to adapt for RCMP members with no military background. 

I would see no issues with completing routine general policing tasks (impaired drivers, domestics, etc) but even in those, the military has other processes within the CofC rather than just dealing with the criminal justice system, which would be hard for non-CF members to keep up on.  The military only tasks that MPs conduct would be a little harder...




*each RCMP Detachment does things a little different, based on the community, leadership and office morale, among other things.

 

[Container]

1. Soldiers are no more difficult to arrest than anyone else no matter where Im "exerting my authority". Ive arrested plenty.

2. The RCMP would have no problem working with CoC about issues that arrose with service people if there was an expectation that it gets sent that way. We do police communties close to military bases and have dealt with that before.

3. Nothing about police work is rocket surgery. You guys are complicating a very uncomplicated thing- with the rules surrounding half the things the police are required to be involved in the base politics and "corporate knowledge" are the least complicated things. There would be no reason a civi police officer couldnt do your living areas and leave the military stuff to the military police.

4. That being said- youre everyday military police officer from their academy is in the general vicinity of you everyday civi police officer. Over and above that- you have a veritable shit tonne more military police on every base than you would ever see if you had a civi detachment. You woould have between 5 and 7 police officers for your average military base. unlike the numbers you have now.

5. I have worked with the Military police on high profile complex criminal investigations. Two in particular stand out and in one case they were an absolute gong show. On the other they did an excellent job. I have been involved in numerous high profile investigations with my own organization- I've seen more than one of our own gong shows so I dont put too much weight on it. It has more to do with whos running the case than the color of the uniform.

6. Generally speaking, a 10 year civi cop has more criminal experience then most 10 year military police officers Ive met. This says more about the general safety of a military base than it does about the military police officer. There are a few military police officers who've seen their share of criminal garbage.

There would be no reason for the switch beyond the CF trying to get rid of the "police officer" from the MP. If thats what you guys want- professional field MP's than go hard. I have no opinion on that because I dont know enough about their field duties., But you wont get a better police officer in your communities. The holes in MP experience on the street, such as major crime, could be plugged by increasing their exposure to major case management and investigations beyond checking doors and attending alarms. (more exposure- dont read into that comment)

 

[dapaterson]

There would be no reason for the switch beyond the CF trying to get rid of the "police officer" from the MP. If thats what you guys want- professional field MP's than go hard. I have no opinion on that because I dont know enough about their field duties., But you wont get a better police officer in your communities. The holes in MP experience on the street, such as major crime, could be plugged by increasing their exposure to major case management and investigations beyond checking doors and attending alarms. (more exposure- dont read into that comment)

And that is why I favour more of a hybrid model for policing than our current one - we want MPs to do too much.  They lack the time and numbers to develop all the skillsets we need for the big P policing functions, since we still need them to maintain the big M functions (PW handling is to my mind the big one).

The military career management system, with folks moving every 3-4 years, also prevents the development of in-depth knowledge and experience in key areas.  A course does not make an investigator; experience conducting investigations does.

What is the perfect model and mix?  I don't know.  Getting co-lcoated MP/RCMP dets to do on-base functions might be a start.  Of course, it would cost more to add some RCMP to our bases, and there's little appetite to spend more right now.

 

[Infanteer]

The military career management system, with folks moving every 3-4 years, also prevents the development of in-depth knowledge and experience in key areas.  A course does not make an investigator; experience conducting investigations does.

Isn't this what the RCMP does?