MP's to start as Private, not Corporal... ?
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Ahh...nothing like a good ol' MP bashing to get the crowd fired up.
As previously stated, the fact of the matter is MPs have not been getting this due to being “special” or “political reasoning”. This promotion is a recruiting incentive program for under strength trades, that’s it, that’s all. Here is the Backgrounder issued in 2001 when this program was announced. You’ll note that 18 trades were eligible for immediate promotion to Cpl upon completion of Basic, not just MPs so it is hardly a case of “everyone else” having to wait while MPs got divine intervention and became the only Branch worthy of immediate promotion to AL/Cpl. Even today this is not the case and a quick perusal of the Recruiting website shows the following are potentially still eligible for immediate promotion to Cpl upon completion of Basic as a recruiting incentive:
ATIS Tech
Dent Tech
LCIS Tech
MAR Eng Tech
MRad Tech
MP
NES Op
NE Tech (C)
Sig Op
Son Op
Veh Tech
Why is the issue of MPs receiving the promotion to Cpl such an issue while no-one seems to care about the other 10 trades eligible to receive, and in all likelihood are having new recruits actually receive, the same promotion? Maybe it’s because we are the only trade where everyone one of our recruits meets the eligibility for the promotion and are therefore the most obvious beneficiaries of it? Are the other trades recruiting in such small numbers and/or having so few people meet the eligibility criteria that it is rare to find someone who has been insta-promoted in these other trades? Or is Al closer to the mark with his reasoning…?
Do I agree with the program? No, I most definitely do not mostly for the reasons which have been clearly illuminated in this thread. As stated, a Cpl should have the general military knowledge of a Cpl and this only comes through time and experience but it is possible to argue that much of what is considered to be general military knowledge has little transportability between bases of different elements. Ie. You get a MCpl posted into an Army base after 12 years on Air Force bases and he’s going to be at as much of a loss with regard to Army vehicles, equipment and terminology as the AL/Cpl right out of the School. Also, as a Branch which is constantly under the microscope the less reasons there are for people to scream “MPs are getting preferential treatment!” the better. NewCenturion also has a valid point though with regard to the danger of premature promotion. While it’s nice to say that it should never happen, it is a reality we, and other Branches I would guess, do have to deal with due to high attrition rates and other factors.
This has been a matter of serious discussion within the Branch since at least 2004 and I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why a program with so many "cons" which negatively impact individuals and the Branch, especially over the long term, should be maintained.
recceguy said:
As previously stated, the fact of the matter is MPs have not been getting this due to being “special” or “political reasoning”. This promotion is a recruiting incentive program for under strength trades, that’s it, that’s all. Here is the Backgrounder issued in 2001 when this program was announced. You’ll note that 18 trades were eligible for immediate promotion to Cpl upon completion of Basic, not just MPs so it is hardly a case of “everyone else” having to wait while MPs got divine intervention and became the only Branch worthy of immediate promotion to AL/Cpl. Even today this is not the case and a quick perusal of the Recruiting website shows the following are potentially still eligible for immediate promotion to Cpl upon completion of Basic as a recruiting incentive:
ATIS Tech
Dent Tech
LCIS Tech
MAR Eng Tech
MRad Tech
MP
NES Op
NE Tech (C)
Sig Op
Son Op
Veh Tech
Why is the issue of MPs receiving the promotion to Cpl such an issue while no-one seems to care about the other 10 trades eligible to receive, and in all likelihood are having new recruits actually receive, the same promotion? Maybe it’s because we are the only trade where everyone one of our recruits meets the eligibility for the promotion and are therefore the most obvious beneficiaries of it? Are the other trades recruiting in such small numbers and/or having so few people meet the eligibility criteria that it is rare to find someone who has been insta-promoted in these other trades? Or is Al closer to the mark with his reasoning…?
Do I agree with the program? No, I most definitely do not mostly for the reasons which have been clearly illuminated in this thread. As stated, a Cpl should have the general military knowledge of a Cpl and this only comes through time and experience but it is possible to argue that much of what is considered to be general military knowledge has little transportability between bases of different elements. Ie. You get a MCpl posted into an Army base after 12 years on Air Force bases and he’s going to be at as much of a loss with regard to Army vehicles, equipment and terminology as the AL/Cpl right out of the School. Also, as a Branch which is constantly under the microscope the less reasons there are for people to scream “MPs are getting preferential treatment!” the better. NewCenturion also has a valid point though with regard to the danger of premature promotion. While it’s nice to say that it should never happen, it is a reality we, and other Branches I would guess, do have to deal with due to high attrition rates and other factors.
This has been a matter of serious discussion within the Branch since at least 2004 and I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why a program with so many "cons" which negatively impact individuals and the Branch, especially over the long term, should be maintained.
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17thRecceSgt
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Cyr said:
I am not being disrespectful to the Cpl rank but would being promoted to the Cpl really go to your head?? I was a Cpl once...don't remember it "going to my head". Not sure what you mean by that...and...I thought it was a A/Cpl promotion.
My understanding is MPs also receive Spec 1 pay, but I am sure they only get that after they are QL5A qual'd.
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17thRecceSgt
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recceguy said:
I am not sure about any other trades, there may be some, but MPs HAVE to have a 2 year vocational "law and security" program just to get in to the trade. Along with the normal recruiting process they also go for a special assessment, the name eludes me at this time.
That was how it was explained to me by a buddy of mine that CT'd to MP a few years back...AND I am sure he said they were getting Spec right out of the Academy at the time...
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Mud Recce Man said:
Mud Recce Man said:
Well? Make up you mind.....Spec Pay after QL5A or right out of the Academy? There is a difference.
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17thRecceSgt
Guest
Groucho said:
Not the case with CF MPs. You can find the Powers of Arrest of Personnel Appointed as MPs in QR & O Vol II (along with Powers of Arrest of CF Members of the non-MP flavour as well)...
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17thRecceSgt
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George Wallace said:
George,
Roger. Unclear as I said it. I believe, prior to the OSIP that came out in 2004 timeframe. Not fully awake yet...from a post in OSIP...
SUBJ: SPECIALIST PAY OCCUPATIONAL IMPLEMENTATION PLAN (OSIP) FOR NCMS - ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION
REFS: (removed, you can ask me for them if you want them)
1. IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT ASSIGNMENT OF SPECIALIST PAY IS ADMINISTERED APPROPRIATELY, THE FOLLOWING DIRECTION IS PROVIDED AS INDICATED AT REF C PARA 12
2. FOR CFRG, ALL PERSONNEL ENROLLED INTO A SPECIALIST OCCUPATION ARE TO BE ENROLLED INTO THE JR SUB-DIVISION FOR THAT OCCUPATION
3. THE INTENTION OF THE OSIP IS TO ENSURE THAT PERSONNEL ONLY RECEIVE SPECIALIST PAY WHEN THEY ARE FULLY QUALIFIED IAW THEIR OCCUPATION SPECIFICATION (OS) AND HAVE ACHIEVED THE REQUIRED RANK IAW OCCUPATION REQUIREMENTS (SEE CHART ON DPPD WEBSITE) HTTP(removed) AND DOWNLOAD EXCEL SPREADSHEET
4. UNITS ARE ONLY TO MOVE PERSONNEL INTO THE QUALIFIED SUB-DIVISION UPON ACHIEVEMENT OF BOTH THE REQUIRED RANK AND THE REQUIRED QUALIFICATION FOR THAT SUBDIVISION, WHICHEVER COMES LATER
5. NCMS IN THE RANK OF LS/CPL PRIOR TO ACHIEVING TRADE QUALIFICATION (OR MS/MCPL, PO2/SGT OR PO1/WO) AS REQUIRED FOR THE SPECIFIC OCCUPATION) INCLUDING:
A. MBRS PROMOTED ACTING LACKING
B. MBRS PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE, AND
C. MBRS WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY OCCUPATIONAL TRANSFERRED
WILL REMAIN IN THE JUNIOR SUB-DIVISION AT STANDARD TRADE GROUP RATES OF PAY (EXCEPT FLT ENG AND NDT TECH MOCS WHICH WILL BE SPEC1 IN THE JR SUBDIVISION) UNTIL ALL OCCUPATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION ARE SUCCESSFULLY ATTAINED. ONCE OCCUPATIONALLY QUALIFIED, THAT MBR WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE APPLICABLE SUB-DIVISION AND BE REMUNERATED ACCORDINGLY (SPEC 1 OR SPEC 2). THE RATE OF PAY SHALL BE ESTABLISHED AT THE INCENTIVE PAY CATEGORY FOR THE MBR'S RANK, PAY LEVEL AND NEW TRADE GROUP THAT IS NEAREST TO BUT NOT LESS THAN, THE RATE OF PAY THE MBR WAS RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MBR'S TRANSFER FOR THE PURPOSES OF IPC INCREASES, THE IPC ANNIVERSARY DATE SHALL BE THE ACTUAL DATE OF TRANSFER FROM THE STANDARD TRADE GROUP TO THE SPECIALIST TRADE GROUP
which would go back to what I was "trying" to say...before OSIP, they were getting Spec right out of the Academy. Not the case now, they have to be 5A qual'd like everyone else (which also points out that all the other spec pay MOCs are like that now too).
Hope that clears up my confusing posts.
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17thRecceSgt
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NewCenturion said:
I believe I saw an article recently in The Maple Leaf about a MP WO that was at Depot in Regina doing the business there too.
Nope, not expert, but I always, in my own little head, thought the major difference between MPs and civie cops was that they (MPs) investigate and charge under the NDA, enforce the CSD also along with the CoC, and have to hand over MAJOR crimes to civilian Peace Officers (i.e. murder, sexual assualt, etc that get handed over to the RCMP immediately), and that, as an MP, YOU are subject to the NDA and CSD as well. (I have reminded a few MP Cpl's that were a wee bit green that a couple of times while here in Halifax over the past few years).
I do agree with some earlier posts on the best MPs I have dealt with are OTs (out of Cmbt Arms) and the "new to the army and I am now a Cpl" ones are a bit more...cocky to deal with.
I had a cousin who was a MP Pte back in '89. He "detained" a Capt who was running behind in 12 Wing and was speeding (55 in a 50 zone). He (the MP Pte) ended up getting his arse chewed bad, IIRC his story, because said Capt was the pilot of a SeaKing that was sposed to fly out to the boat that was now waiting for it while MP Pte was lecturing the pilot on "CF Discipline" and the lot at the Guard House in Shearwater. :
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All my past complaints about the Branch aside, I genuinely agree with MP's getting in as Cpl's. It's an excellent recruiting incentive that draws professionals interested in a military police career already established in civilian life -- complete with families, mortgages, and debt. Civilian police and the MP's compete for the same recruits, and sometimes money is a large factor. As Cpl's, even ones promoted right off basic, MP's will have more presence than Pte's. It's easier to get lippy to a pte than to a cpl, even if they both have identical amounts of time in. DEO officers can get promoted to 2Lt sooner than their ROTP counterparts, does that make them any less effective as platoon commanders?
As for OT's in to MP being better police, I think that data's a bit misleading. Individuals who will do well as MP's will do well regardless of experience, though that experience may enrichen their MP career. Those people are highly motivated, energetic, and intelligent not because of their time in the Arms, but because they are that way by nature.
As for OT's in to MP being better police, I think that data's a bit misleading. Individuals who will do well as MP's will do well regardless of experience, though that experience may enrichen their MP career. Those people are highly motivated, energetic, and intelligent not because of their time in the Arms, but because they are that way by nature.
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MPs do not turn over MAJOR crimes to the RCMP. The NIS investigates murder, sexual assault etc if it occurs on DND property. The NIS can lay charges under the NDA and the Criminal Code as well as other federal statutes. NIS have a variety of specialzed skills they can draw on i.e. polygraph, forensic identification techs (CIS to the non-initiated). If they need other resources they can access these through local police depts who are usually much larger.
As an example in 04 there was an armed robbery at the Credit Union on base here in Edmonton, the suspect got away with the most cash taken in a robbery in Edmonton's history. Not only did the NIS solve the case, get the bad guy and re-covered the money, but in doing so also they solved several other crimes that occurred within the city of Edmonton and in the county (RCMP jurisdiction).
Regular MP members recommend NDA charges up through the chain of command. However they can lay Criminal Code Charges in the civilian courts without the approval of the chain if an offence has been committed.
As an example in 04 there was an armed robbery at the Credit Union on base here in Edmonton, the suspect got away with the most cash taken in a robbery in Edmonton's history. Not only did the NIS solve the case, get the bad guy and re-covered the money, but in doing so also they solved several other crimes that occurred within the city of Edmonton and in the county (RCMP jurisdiction).
Regular MP members recommend NDA charges up through the chain of command. However they can lay Criminal Code Charges in the civilian courts without the approval of the chain if an offence has been committed.
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Mud Recce Man said:
To make everyone feel even better about this...the following applied to MP pers for sure and probably applied to all the trades involved in this incentive program prior to that message being released:
Everyone with backdated promotions to Cpl at the end of Basic were also given Spec 1 backdated to the date of enrolment. OT's were Spec 1 commencing the day they were accepted for OT, even if they were awaiting their course for extended periods. Additionally, Reserve pers on Class “C” contracts were also entitled to Spec Pay, even if their Reserve MOC was not normally entitled and they were unqualified for it IAW Reg Force standards (ie. Reserve MP who were not badged). Who says the CF always screws the member when it comes to money?
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Callsign Kenny said:
While it's true MP and civilian police forces compete for recruits from generally the same pool, the last thing I want is for the deciding factor to be dollars when someone makes their decision because at the end of the day the CF is unable to compete on a monetary basis over the long haul with civilian police services. Although my information is a little dated, what I have indicates that although the MP Branch is/was the highest paid upon commencement that advantage is rapidly lost. A MP Cpl gains only about $3000 more after four years while the average Constable gains $25-30K when they hit their max salary, not even counting overtime. You have to be a MWO/CWO to even begin to match what a Constable makes after 3-6 years, depending on the police service. Last I looked, there weren't a lot of 3-6 year CWO's kicking around so it's pretty obvious to me that if money is the sole factor someone decided to be a MP they won't stick around long...
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Yep, and with the training they get, it may be easier for them to get into CivPol, where they'll make more money. This may be an incorrect point, but aren't the recruiting PT standards for MP's less than several metropolitan forces and the RCMP?
Personally, I'll take a police force that will compete with civilian forces to recruit the most competitive candidates rather than a force competing wages against mall security.
Personally, I'll take a police force that will compete with civilian forces to recruit the most competitive candidates rather than a force competing wages against mall security.
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Why do you hate MP's?
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17thRecceSgt
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NewCenturion said:
Pays to hear from those that know! I was told that by a MP MWO a few years back at the Area CWO PD weekend. Could it have changed in the last say...4 years??
