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Old Sweat said:
:ditto:
Op PRESENCE/Mali (Cdn mission/s, sitreps, etc. - merged)
- Thread starter Nfld Sapper
- Start date
:ditto:
Old Sweat said:
I'm more inclined to think that MacKay's statement was along the lines of floating a trial baloon- send it up so that the government communications wonks could gauge and meter the response from the public on a host of issues - what we (Canadians) envision our post-Kandahar military role being, whether Canadians happen to care about Africa at the moment, and whether there's any taste for us getting involved in a more concrete international role while still with an end state clearly aligned with the security concerns we collectively share with our allies.
But yes- I think you've hit a nail on the head WRT the military coup and resultant reticence to be involved there; not wanting to be seen to reinforce such things and all that. I guess that plays off against the costs of not acting while the entrenchment of AQIM in Mali is relatively fresh.
So, looking around the room here- does anyone realistically see a major training mission in Mali NOT (intentionally or unintentionally) being a 'camel's nose under the tent flap' for a longer and more likely more kinetic engagement down the road? I see considerable risk of that, particularly now that the magical words 'al Qaeda' have been spoken.
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A story in today's Ottawa Citizen speculates that the PM may be asked for some sort of military assistance by the President of the African Union. I suspect that any assistance, if authorized, would be limited and fairly small scale i.e. not on the scale of Op Attention. IMO there would be both limited finances and public support available for any sort of larger scale, expeditionary op.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/African+Union+chair+meet+Harper+Canada+mulls+support+Mali/7781691/story.html
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/African+Union+chair+meet+Harper+Canada+mulls+support+Mali/7781691/story.html
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http://ckom.com/content/fowler-blasts-tories-over-mali-troop-request
I do think Harper will only allow a training mission... but what will the CF ground troops go while and after they start to head back from Afghanistan?
I do think Harper will only allow a training mission... but what will the CF ground troops go while and after they start to head back from Afghanistan?
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Uh, what? ???B.Dias said:
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Ugh, sorry, new laptop.. :-\ :facepalm:Journeyman said:
I am curious at what Harper's plans are in regards to his next military move. If a placement of ground troops is not an option for the CF, I was pondering what the next move for the forces will be, if not Mali. It doesn't seem like the Harper government has a liking in peacekeeping, so what would be next.. hmm..
Mr. Fowler will not give up. Here he claims that a UNSC resolution is a request for Canada to deploy troops to the region, a point the government is at pains to deny. The story is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act.
Fowler blasts Tories for saying Canada has not been asked to send troops to Mali
By: Mike Blanchfield, The Canadian Press
OTTAWA - Robert Fowler, the retired Canadian diplomat who was kidnapped by terrorists in Africa, blasted the Harper government Monday for saying it has not been asked to contribute to the international military mission to Mali.
Fowler condemned the government for advancing that position on the eve of a meeting between Prime Minister Stephen and the head of the African Union in Ottawa, where a request for a Canadian troop contribution was widely expected.
Fowler, a former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations, accused the government of ignoring last month's resolution by the UN Security Council that called on all countries to contribute to halt the spread of terrorism that has taken root in Mali.
"The government has been asked. In the Security Council resolution 2085 of 20 December, the Security Council urges member states — of which I believe Canada is still one — to provide a whole set of things, including military training, provision of equipment, intelligence, logistics support and any necessary assistance to reduce the threat posed by terrorist organizations," Fowler told The Canadian Press.
"Therefore, we have been asked."
Earlier in the day, a government official who spoke only on condition on anonymity offered the exact opposite view.
"Nothing has been asked of us as yet," the official told The Canadian Press.
Harper hosts AU President Thomas Boni Yayi on Tuesday on Parliament Hill, where the chaos and violence that have gripped Mali for much of the last year will be high on their agenda.
Mali was struck by a military coup in March and now has a group linked to al-Qaida controlling its north.
Defence Minister Peter MacKay stoked speculation about the mission last week when he said Canada would be willing to send military trainers.
The office of Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird countered that Canada was not contemplating a military mission to Mali — the same position the government official put forth again on Monday.
"We will wait to hear what people are requesting, if they are requesting anything," the official said.
"As minister Baird has said, we're not contemplating a military mission, and minister Baird is on the record with that. It's the government's position."
Fowler denounced that position, saying Canada does not need a special invitation following the passage of the recent UN resolution.
"This is how one asks. It's a way that enables some people to pretend they haven't been asked. But they've been asked. All member states have been asked," Fowler said.
"It is a clear invitation to anybody that can, and anybody that cares, to play."
Fowler urged Harper to answer the renewed personal request he expects he will receive in Tuesday's meeting with a resounding yes.
Fowler came face-to-face with the threat that is currently destabilizing Mali and its West African neighbours when he and fellow Canadian diplomat, Louis Guay, were kidnapped in 2008 and held for 130 days by the Islamic Maghreb, the al-Qaida linked group in Mali.
At the time, Fowler was the UN special envoy to Niger, where he and Guay were abducted.
"We're going to have to intervene now or later. And it will be a lot more expensive and a lot bloodier later," Fowler said.
"Quite often I'm asked, 'How are you doing?' And my usual answer is: 'I'm doing fine, and so too is al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb.' They now have a country. They have a base, and they are doing what they told me they would do.
"They told us that their objective was to spread the chaos and anarchy of Somalia across the Sahel region from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic, and in that chaos their jihad would thrive. And that's what they're doing."
The official said Harper is well aware that Boni Yayi is an advocate of military intervention in Mali, but that the government doesn't want to get involved in a military mission there.
Harper is expecting a full briefing on the latest developments in Mali, but the official would not say whether the prime minister was expecting an "ask" from Boni Yayi.
Mali was a stable recipient of Canadian aid and one of the continent's best partners before its democratically elected government was toppled by a military coup in March.
That enabled al-Qaida's African affiliate to swoop into the north and capture the largest piece of land that the terrorist network has ever held.
Two analysts agreed Monday that Canada had a duty to contribute to the international military force, to stop the spread of terrorism across Africa.
But they offered sharply different views on what could be in store for the Canadian Forces.
"We should also be under no illusion that such a training mission will be easy or can be undertaken without making substantial investments on the ground," said Fen Hampson, head of the global security program at the Centre for International Governance Innovation in Waterloo, Ont.
"There is no quick fix here and we should not be doing something just to feel good about ourselves. We either get serious or we don't do it at all."
Andrew Grant, an Africa expert at Queen's University, said that the government needs to help a country with which it has had a stable 40-year relationship.
"I think they will contribute, but it's not going to be an overly robust contribution. You're not going to see active engagement by Canadian troops out in the field."
Fowler blasts Tories for saying Canada has not been asked to send troops to Mali
By: Mike Blanchfield, The Canadian Press
OTTAWA - Robert Fowler, the retired Canadian diplomat who was kidnapped by terrorists in Africa, blasted the Harper government Monday for saying it has not been asked to contribute to the international military mission to Mali.
Fowler condemned the government for advancing that position on the eve of a meeting between Prime Minister Stephen and the head of the African Union in Ottawa, where a request for a Canadian troop contribution was widely expected.
Fowler, a former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations, accused the government of ignoring last month's resolution by the UN Security Council that called on all countries to contribute to halt the spread of terrorism that has taken root in Mali.
"The government has been asked. In the Security Council resolution 2085 of 20 December, the Security Council urges member states — of which I believe Canada is still one — to provide a whole set of things, including military training, provision of equipment, intelligence, logistics support and any necessary assistance to reduce the threat posed by terrorist organizations," Fowler told The Canadian Press.
"Therefore, we have been asked."
Earlier in the day, a government official who spoke only on condition on anonymity offered the exact opposite view.
"Nothing has been asked of us as yet," the official told The Canadian Press.
Harper hosts AU President Thomas Boni Yayi on Tuesday on Parliament Hill, where the chaos and violence that have gripped Mali for much of the last year will be high on their agenda.
Mali was struck by a military coup in March and now has a group linked to al-Qaida controlling its north.
Defence Minister Peter MacKay stoked speculation about the mission last week when he said Canada would be willing to send military trainers.
The office of Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird countered that Canada was not contemplating a military mission to Mali — the same position the government official put forth again on Monday.
"We will wait to hear what people are requesting, if they are requesting anything," the official said.
"As minister Baird has said, we're not contemplating a military mission, and minister Baird is on the record with that. It's the government's position."
Fowler denounced that position, saying Canada does not need a special invitation following the passage of the recent UN resolution.
"This is how one asks. It's a way that enables some people to pretend they haven't been asked. But they've been asked. All member states have been asked," Fowler said.
"It is a clear invitation to anybody that can, and anybody that cares, to play."
Fowler urged Harper to answer the renewed personal request he expects he will receive in Tuesday's meeting with a resounding yes.
Fowler came face-to-face with the threat that is currently destabilizing Mali and its West African neighbours when he and fellow Canadian diplomat, Louis Guay, were kidnapped in 2008 and held for 130 days by the Islamic Maghreb, the al-Qaida linked group in Mali.
At the time, Fowler was the UN special envoy to Niger, where he and Guay were abducted.
"We're going to have to intervene now or later. And it will be a lot more expensive and a lot bloodier later," Fowler said.
"Quite often I'm asked, 'How are you doing?' And my usual answer is: 'I'm doing fine, and so too is al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb.' They now have a country. They have a base, and they are doing what they told me they would do.
"They told us that their objective was to spread the chaos and anarchy of Somalia across the Sahel region from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic, and in that chaos their jihad would thrive. And that's what they're doing."
The official said Harper is well aware that Boni Yayi is an advocate of military intervention in Mali, but that the government doesn't want to get involved in a military mission there.
Harper is expecting a full briefing on the latest developments in Mali, but the official would not say whether the prime minister was expecting an "ask" from Boni Yayi.
Mali was a stable recipient of Canadian aid and one of the continent's best partners before its democratically elected government was toppled by a military coup in March.
That enabled al-Qaida's African affiliate to swoop into the north and capture the largest piece of land that the terrorist network has ever held.
Two analysts agreed Monday that Canada had a duty to contribute to the international military force, to stop the spread of terrorism across Africa.
But they offered sharply different views on what could be in store for the Canadian Forces.
"We should also be under no illusion that such a training mission will be easy or can be undertaken without making substantial investments on the ground," said Fen Hampson, head of the global security program at the Centre for International Governance Innovation in Waterloo, Ont.
"There is no quick fix here and we should not be doing something just to feel good about ourselves. We either get serious or we don't do it at all."
Andrew Grant, an Africa expert at Queen's University, said that the government needs to help a country with which it has had a stable 40-year relationship.
"I think they will contribute, but it's not going to be an overly robust contribution. You're not going to see active engagement by Canadian troops out in the field."
- Reaction score
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Technically, Mr. Fowler is correct. In UN speak a UNSC Resolution is at the "top of the heap" (above statements and recommendations and several other sorts of documents), and members, of which Canada is one, have agreed, upon signing up for membership, to be bound by such resolutions. This one is fairly strongly worded but while it Urges and Calls upon members state, in general, and some organizations (like the African Union) to do some things it doesn't Decide to deploy a UN force, per se and it only (rarely) Requests some actions by some members/organizations.
Decide and Request are "higher order" action verbs than Urge and Call upon. Compare it to the language in UNGA Resolution 377(V) which called us to war in Korea in 1950: 377(V) was clear and unambiguous; 2085 is far less so.
Prime Minister Harper does have a smoke screen behind which to take cover.
Decide and Request are "higher order" action verbs than Urge and Call upon. Compare it to the language in UNGA Resolution 377(V) which called us to war in Korea in 1950: 377(V) was clear and unambiguous; 2085 is far less so.
Prime Minister Harper does have a smoke screen behind which to take cover.
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Training these countries should be done through improving the Officer Corps and NCO's. No more then a company, or two. Special ops should take the lead in capture/kill missions of AQ leaders and key members. We should not do nothing, because we do not want Africa to be a safe haven for AQ like the middle east and other Asian nations.
My :2c:
My :2c:
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Maybe we can raise a Gurkha regiment with Canadian officers stationed off of Canadian soil and rent them to the UN for this sort of stuff. I can just see a hardened Gurkha NCO attempting to discussing tactics with a Young Quebecois Officer with a heavy Gaspe' accent, with a Newfie Major trying to translate.
- Reaction score
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on-hold said:
While the basic idea is correct, most nations that did not have a Commonwealth or British background do not see or use officers and NCO's the way we do. In many nations, NCO ranks indicate technical specialists; i.e. the guy who knows how to use the radio or drive the APC. Junior officers often are left to do the tasks "we" leave for the NCO's. One result of this cultural difference can be seen with the UNMO's: although Sgts train theme here at PSTC, and are quite capable of doing the job, Canadian officers act as UNMO's because "over there" a Canadian NCO would be looked upon as some sort of glorified servant and treated that way (at least until someone's lights got punched out).
Now while it is possible to massively retool a military force, we need to think of the time and resources needed, not to mention the various cultural and institutional obstacles in the way of doing so (both in Canada and the receiving nation).
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Good insight Thucydides. I didn't know it worked like that over there. So I guess what your saying is, the focus should remain in developing the officer corps, therefore allowing there own newly trained officers, to apply training to his own ranks as need be?
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According to a report in the Globe and Mail while the AU is seeking some kind of NATO assistance Prime Minister Harper has ruled out a Canadian military mission.
President Thomas Boni Yayi of Benin, current head of the African Union, said he would like to see NATO play a "direct role, alongside an African led force." There might be some sense in what he says ~ image a force in which the AU provides ALL the conventional infantry, armour and artillery forces while NATO provides logistics support, C3 systems, including staffs but NOT the force commander, aviation and, maybe, even engineer support.
President Thomas Boni Yayi of Benin, current head of the African Union, said he would like to see NATO play a "direct role, alongside an African led force." There might be some sense in what he says ~ image a force in which the AU provides ALL the conventional infantry, armour and artillery forces while NATO provides logistics support, C3 systems, including staffs but NOT the force commander, aviation and, maybe, even engineer support.
- Reaction score
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Harper says no Canadian military mission in Mali
African Union leader calls for NATO assistance
By Laura Payton, CBC News Posted: Jan 8, 2013 1:25 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 8, 2013 3:16 PM ET
Prime Minister Stephen Harper, meeting with African Union leader and Benin President Thomas Boni Yahi, says Canada is not considering a direct military mission in Mali, despite concern about al-Qaeda's growing influence in the country. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)
Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Canada is not considering a direct military mission in Mali, despite concern about al-Qaeda's growing influence in the country.
Canada is consulting its allies in the West and working diplomatically with its friends in Africa, Harper said Tuesday.
"Obviously we are very concerned about the situation. The development of essentially an entire terrorist region in the middle of Africa is obviously of great concern to everyone in the international community," he said.
Harper was meeting with Thomas Boni Yayi, president of the Republic of Benin and chairman of the African Union, who said he wants to see NATO add its forces to the African forces tasked with dealing with Mali.
"There are also other forces outside the African continent that could contribute to take into account the seriousness of the situation and the resources that are required to implement this," Boni Yayi said.
"We need to react for the simple reason that this issue goes well beyond the scope of Africa, but also we must focus on the fact that the scourge of terrorism is an issue of the entire international community."
Mali was struck by a military coup last March and now has a group linked to al-Qaeda controlling its north.
The UN Security Council backed a proposal in December to send an African-led force of 3,300 soldiers into the country, but the resolution also called for broader international assistance.
Harper and Boni Yayi announced they have signed a foreign investment protection agreement. The agreement locks in legally binding provisions, such as on non-discrimination and free movement of capital, according to a release from Harper's office.
Harper also announced $18 million from 2013 to 2021 to help Benin improve its tax collection and policy implementation.
"We need internal revenue collection in order to have more independence," Boni Yayi said.
With files from The Canadian Press
African Union leader calls for NATO assistance
By Laura Payton, CBC News Posted: Jan 8, 2013 1:25 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 8, 2013 3:16 PM ET
Prime Minister Stephen Harper, meeting with African Union leader and Benin President Thomas Boni Yahi, says Canada is not considering a direct military mission in Mali, despite concern about al-Qaeda's growing influence in the country. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)
Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Canada is not considering a direct military mission in Mali, despite concern about al-Qaeda's growing influence in the country.
Canada is consulting its allies in the West and working diplomatically with its friends in Africa, Harper said Tuesday.
"Obviously we are very concerned about the situation. The development of essentially an entire terrorist region in the middle of Africa is obviously of great concern to everyone in the international community," he said.
Harper was meeting with Thomas Boni Yayi, president of the Republic of Benin and chairman of the African Union, who said he wants to see NATO add its forces to the African forces tasked with dealing with Mali.
"There are also other forces outside the African continent that could contribute to take into account the seriousness of the situation and the resources that are required to implement this," Boni Yayi said.
"We need to react for the simple reason that this issue goes well beyond the scope of Africa, but also we must focus on the fact that the scourge of terrorism is an issue of the entire international community."
Mali was struck by a military coup last March and now has a group linked to al-Qaeda controlling its north.
The UN Security Council backed a proposal in December to send an African-led force of 3,300 soldiers into the country, but the resolution also called for broader international assistance.
Harper and Boni Yayi announced they have signed a foreign investment protection agreement. The agreement locks in legally binding provisions, such as on non-discrimination and free movement of capital, according to a release from Harper's office.
Harper also announced $18 million from 2013 to 2021 to help Benin improve its tax collection and policy implementation.
"We need internal revenue collection in order to have more independence," Boni Yayi said.
With files from The Canadian Press
- Reaction score
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Let the "we have to do something!!" screaming begin in 3...2...1...
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- Reaction score
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You make it sound like the kraken.Infanteer said:
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