Op PRESENCE/Mali (Cdn mission/s, sitreps, etc. - merged)

[Jarnhamar]

I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of first world troops, especially white first world troops to train black third world soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps. My observation was, many years decades ago that second world troops (then Indians and Pakistanis) seemed more adept at handing African training than we were.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[my72jeep]

I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of first world troops, especially white first world troops to train black third world soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps. My observation was, many years decades ago that second world troops (then Indians and Pakistanis) seemed more adept at handing African training than we were.

Maybe we, the US led West, should be managing and funding training programmes for e.g. Mali but we should pay e.g. Indian, Fijian and Malaysian armies to actually conduct the training.

E.R. is speaking from first hand experience, my guess is the Zulu wars?..........

 

[GAP]

E.R. is speaking from first hand experience, my guess is the Zulu wars?..........

Let's not get carried away here.....they had fire arms during the Zulu wars..... :

 

[PJGary]

Aren't these the same dough heads that wanted us to return to UN missions?  :facepalm:

That was my gripe too.

"Maaaan, peace keeping and the UN maaaan, we need to help less fortunate people maaan"
"The UN is requesting us to do this and help these people who asked us to help them"
"...No blood for oil maaaan, why are we going there to help other people when we live in like, a fascist dictatorship and stuff...down with bush maaan!"

At least if these people exist they are too fat/lazy/stupid to go vote, which I'm cool with.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of first world troops, especially white first world troops to train black third world soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps ....

Not to mention history.....

 

[brihard]

Not to mention history.....

Yup. Just for info's sake, Mali's colonial history is French. For what (if anything) that's worth.

 

[OldSolduer]

Well we messed up in the Congo, Somalia and Rwanda.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

Stay away.

 

[MikeL]

It seems that CSOR did alright in Mali(prior to the coup).

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/03/canadian-special-forces-mentor-malis-military/
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21855:mali-to-receive-canadian-special-forces-to-fight-al-qaeda&catid=56:diplomacy-a-peace&Itemid=111
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1099761--canadian-commandos-focus-on-foreign-forces

 

[medicineman]

I seem to recall that we still have/had a decent mission going on in Sierra Leone...a small one, about a dozen trainers, but still pretty successful as I understand it.

:2c:

MM

 

[Armymedic]

Yup. Just for info's sake, Mali's colonial history is French. For what (if anything) that's worth.

+1

And for some reason the US SOF and FRASOF don't work well together....Perhaps because the expansive egos and never ending dick measuring. Or, more realistically, cause France turned its back on the ATO.

 

[Monsoon]

I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of first world troops, especially white first world troops to train black third world soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps.

For what it's worth, my experiences with Malian officers have been uniformly positive (I've worked with three at various times). They're all trained at French military academies and the results are obvious - if there's anything approaching an "Western" army (or at least officer corps) in Africa, it's Mali's. I would imagine that the NCM corp is less well-developed, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of our being able to work with them.

 

[Armymedic]

More from the Globe and Mail.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/how-al-qaeda-carved-out-its-own-country-in-mali/article6822838/?page=all


How Al-quieda is carving out its own country in Mali.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

It's not that they have never worn a uniform, it's that they have been fed a line of BS by those that worship PET as the God of the Left.

Its just not the G & M comments section that is full of loonies. I was listening to Rex Murphy yesterday on CBC radio where people could call-in on who they thought was the most important event/person of 2012. One old guy from Edmonton stated the election of Alison Redford and Pauline Marois were important because we had five female premiers and how great this was because as we all know females are more "compassionate and caring" then males and they would make Canada a better place, etc, etc.

A second caller (female) came on how Chief Spence was the greatest thing since sliced bread and how she was the new "Gandi", etc, etc.

Turned off the radio at this point and headed for the first Beer Store I could find.

 

[Edward Campbell]

For what it's worth, my experiences with Malian officers have been uniformly positive (I've worked with three at various times). They're all trained at French military academies and the results are obvious - if there's anything approaching an "Western" army (or at least officer corps) in Africa, it's Mali's. I would imagine that the NCM corp is less well-developed, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of our being able to work with them.

And I worked with a couple of absolutely first rate Ghanians ~ well one undeniably first rate, by any standard, and one fully acceptable ~ and a couple of very good Senegalize, too. But: in all cases we (my NCOs and I) had to try (and we almost always failed) to keep our expectations very, very low because a couple of good officers were, themselves, unable to make up for all the other poorly educated, badly trained, undisciplined officers, NCOs and soldiers. Our Indian colleagues seemed, to me, to have had much more realistic expectations and to have been much less frustrated than we. I suspect our unrealistic expectations and pretty constant frustration made us less that fully effective in the training role. But that was a looooong time ago ... I'm pretty sure that today's NCOs and officers are better at all this than we were.

 

[Journeyman]

... I'm pretty sure that today's NCOs and officers are better at all this than we were.

Are you suggesting that the current generation has caused this lower expectation of competence? 

 

[GAP]

No, I think they are just more used to it based on their recent training roles....

 

[Edward Campbell]

Are you suggesting that the current generation has caused this lower expectation of competence? 

Gimme a break! It's the morning after the New Year's Eve party  :subbies:  ... and there was a charming lady (of indeterminate age, but still 25ish years my junior) who wanted me to understand that she's about to divorce her husband, and ...  :nod:

 

[Journeyman]

Perhaps I should have used  " "  instead of  " "

 

[Bigmac]

Training African troops to fight Al'Quada in Mali may be a losing battle. It would be better to send in other military forces but unfortunately Africa does not like western forces coming into their country. Al'Quada has made Mali their new base of operations. Make no mistake about it they will organize and launch attacks from this base.

Another thing to consider is one of Mali's natural resources is uranium. If Al'Quada controls northern Mali they will also have easy access to uranium that can be enriched to weapons grade or used in dirty bombs. Al'Quada has cells throughout Africa that can distribute this uranium and countries like Iran who would gladly assist them.

:2c:

 

[Teeps74]

Yes they do, despite everyone telling them that it was the Liberals under Chretien who originally sent 3VP to Afghanistan.
The average Canadian is so ill informed on military and international affairs that most should refrain from commenting.

I can not read, nor write to those forums... The blatant lies and deceit along with the utter contempt. Not to mention the one sided moderation. The grope and flail is as bad, if not worse then the Star.