Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

[Bruce Monkhouse]

after Israel kicked the shit out of them. A few times.

Another, hmmm, funny that.........it is really mind-boggling to see how someone with a cause can be so blind to SOME parts of history.   I guess  WW2 was just 6 years of "negotiating" then.........and the atom bomb actually just shot out thousands of leaflets with the words..."sign here" on them.


Now Korea, now there is a nego....oh wait, still one of the most militarized zones in the world

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Zipperhead, how do you expect to keep a decent dialogue going when you consantly throw personal attacks?

Hah!  When did I become the Big Bad Wolf?  All I'm trying to do is pin the guy down to a reasonable answer, and all anybody who does that is gets smoke and mirrors.  It would be a sad state of affairs when justifying a position is seen as a personal attack.  Pretty thin skin there, buttercup.  Plus, Tamouh in his own way is doing fine.  He can handle his horns being tweaked a bit.  
What difference could it possibly make in the battle who or how the place is going to be rebuilt?  My point was that if it is Israel doing the damage by itself they likely won't be rebuilding too many suburbs.  If the non-Hezbollah Lebanese government appealed to NATO or some coalition of the disinterested, then those nations would likely help in the rebuilding.  As it stands, it will probably be dirty Iranian money through Hezbollah that builds most of the stuff back up, and further entrench them in the countries infrastructure.  To suggest that not proceeding with the battle is a better avenue is at least up for debate.  
Sorry Bo, if I left you out of the terrorist sympathizer pool.  You haven't really had much to say like the other three, so you kind of didn't rate.  Don't feel bad.  

 

[tamouh]

Hah!  When did I become the Big Bad Wolf?  All I'm trying to do is pin the guy down to a reasonable answer, and all anybody who does that is gets smoke and mirrors.  It would be a sad state of affairs when justifying a position is seen as a personal attack.  Pretty thin skin there, buttercup.  Plus, Tamouh in his own way is doing fine.  He can handle his horns being tweaked a bit. 

zipperhead_cop: you're trolling big time, and the mods allow it. If I were to respond to your answers in the same way you've been responding to mine, I assure you the mods would be on my back if not banned already. You make a statement then contradict it. You ask a question then bash the answer (without an intelligent response).

Why do some lefties fail to grasp that SOMETIMES force is the only way to ensure lasting peace. Without force, or the real threat of force, peace is just a pipe dream. As far as the negotiate argument, how do you negotiate with someone who's stated purpose is to destroy you?

We're not saying force should never be used. If it wasn't for force, Hitler wouldn't have been stopped. However, there is a time and a place for everything. The ME is a place where force will not work. It still follows the tribal rules: " myself against my cousin, my cousin and myself against my enemy" (This is a very popular say in the ME...just one to show).

** This is a bit lengthy, but if you really want to have a small insight about ME politics and wars, this may help **

I'll give you another example, when the Syrians entered Lebanon, they thought simply they could hit the militias positions until its flattened. What really happened, The Syrians would fire at militia positions, and the militia keeps firing back. The Syrians hit, and the militia hits back.

Another example, Current Iraq. Put aside all the political hype, theories. The US defeated the Iraqi army....everything was going great, everybody anxious for a new Iraq. The US began going after the small insurgency that started by mainly Saddam Loyalist supporting him and his two sons. The US would hit, and sometimes mistake its target killing several civilians. Well, the relatives for the dead do not understand nor care what the US was attempting to do. All what they care about revenge for their dead ones, so they go about rebelling against the US and its supported government. The more these things occur, the more people join the rebel forces.

Another example, Israel in Lebanon '80s .... Amal movement (Sheaa movement prior to establishment of Hezbollah), the Christian militia and the PLO where in all out war against each others, Israel enters from the south: Amal, PLO, Syria, the newly made group Hezbollah stand against Israel. The Christian militia is split with part of them join the Israelis and part decide not wanting anything to do with this war.

Another one, You know why Syria entered Lebanon ? Simple....The Sunnis from the North were about to take control over most of Lebanon and the Christian militia was distant for defeat. The Syrians were ASKED by the Christian militia and Lebanese government to intervene and put a stop to the Sunnis. When Syria entered, the Sunnis and the PLO stood against Syria. Syria began arming the Christian militia until.........this is very important.......Syria discovered the Christian militia also were getting supplied from Israel. This is when things in Lebanon went in another direction. The actions of the Christian militia enraged then Syrian President Hafez Al-Assad and he quickly withdrew all support to the militia and sided with the Shea'as party.

Let me take you a little bit earlier end of 1960s, early 1970s....the Syrians armed The PLO leader (Arafat) in Lebanon to counter the Israelis in the south. With these same weapons, the PLO fought against the Syrian army in the late 70s prior to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

****
Added:

These are few examples to show you how wars end up in that region. It has always been like that through out history, there is no right or wrong side. One thing for sure the ME region has alot of .....Men who grave Power!

 

[armyvern]

Another example, Current Iraq. Put aside all the political hype, theories. The US defeated the Iraqi army....everything was going great, everybody anxious for a new Iraq. The US began going after the small insurgency that started by mainly Saddam Loyalist supporting him and his two sons. The US would hit, and sometimes mistake its target killing several civilians. Well, the relatives for the dead do not understand nor care what the US was attempting to do. All what they care about revenge for their dead ones, so they go about rebelling against the US and its supported government. The more these things occur, the more people join the rebel forces.

I think this particular paragraph highlights points that were brought out in the beginning of this thread. This is why terrorists are considered terrorists and are in a league of their own. Conventional armies do not intentionally target civilians although sometimes collateral damage does occur, despite what the Americans or the IDF were attempting to do.

This is highly unlike terrorists, who choose to intentionaly target civilians of their 'enemy' and even civilians of their own nations. Cripes, they place missle launch sites on top of buildings housing handicapped children!! And then they cry foul. Currently in Iraq, these same terrorists and insurgents are blowing up markets, souqs, and other targets of opportunity on a daily basis....blowing the crap out of and killing their fellow Muslims and countrymen. What are the terrorists intentions?

When the hell is the AVERAGE Muslim going to wake up and (to quote from you

care about revenge for their dead ones, so they go about rebelling against the US terrorists/insurgents and its supported government supporters. The more these things occur, the more people join fight the rebel forces.

Your argument here is weak, given that it would seem that you tend to uphold a certain standard of conduct for the US and another for terrorist factions. You also seem to not apply the same rules to actions (or inaction) taken by average Muslim citizens when terrorists or insurgents blow up their loved ones. Why do we see no revolt or uprising by these same people against the terrorists when some jihadi decides that he's going to blow himself up at the souque today?

 

[tamouh]

Your argument here is weak, given that it would seem that you tend to uphold a certain standard of conduct for the US and another for terrorist factions. You also seem to not apply the same rules to actions (or inaction) taken by average Muslim citizens when terrorists or insurgents blow up their loved ones. Why do we see no revolt or uprising by these same people against the terrorists when some jihadi decides that he's going to blow himself up at the souque today?

Whether you call them terrorists, freedom fighters, insurgents, rebels or whatever. Their war is not my war. Assassinations and bombings are nothing new to the ME. Every single government in the Middle East (including the Israeli government) allowed itself to prosecute innocent civilians that possess a potential for opposing them. Whether being the Druze, Palestinians, Armenians, Sunnis, Christians, Shea'a. They were all at one time in the past 100 yrs the target of sestimatic cleansing in that region. Its the survivor of the fittest in that part of the world, and I do not want their problems in the ME to creep to my country.

The only way to prevent that, by disengaging all parties in that region. Let them sort their own problems, because there is no winning party, no choosen ones and no champions of democracy. They are all there for the power.

 

[2 Cdo]

So Tamouh, your solution is to ignore it and hope that it solves itself? You truly are a piece of work. By the way Hezbollah is a TERRORIST group, end state. They are not insurgents or freedom fighters or any other convienient label you wish to give them to hide their true intentions. They are terrorists, can you even acknowledge that?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

rey with your logic only the Israelis are forced to concede anything. Where is it fair for them? Its not.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So Tamouh, your solution is to ignore it and hope that it solves itself? You truly are a piece of work. By the way Hezbollah is a TERRORIST group, end state. They are not insurgents or freedom fighters or any other convienient label you wish to give them to hide their true intentions. They are terrorists, can you even acknowledge that?

Easier to get get water from a stone....

 

[Infanteer]

Another example, Current Iraq. Put aside all the political hype, theories. The US defeated the Iraqi army....everything was going great, everybody anxious for a new Iraq. The US began going after the small insurgency that started by mainly Saddam Loyalist supporting him and his two sons. The US would hit, and sometimes mistake its target killing several civilians. Well, the relatives for the dead do not understand nor care what the US was attempting to do. All what they care about revenge for their dead ones, so they go about rebelling against the US and its supported government. The more these things occur, the more people join the rebel forces.

I think this particular paragraph highlights points that were brought out in the beginning of this thread. This is why terrorists are considered terrorists and are in a league of their own. Conventional armies do not intentionally target civilians although sometimes collateral damage does occur, despite what the Americans or the IDF were attempting to do.

This is highly unlike terrorists, who choose to intentionaly target civilians of their 'enemy' and even civilians of their own nations. Cripes, they place missle launch sites on top of buildings housing handicapped children!! And then they cry foul. Currently in Iraq, these same terrorists and insurgents are blowing up markets, souqs, and other targets of opportunity on a daily basis....blowing the crap out of and killing their fellow Muslims and countrymen. What are the terrorists intentions?

Actually, Tamouh's analysis of the spawning of much of the Insurgency of Iraq seems quite on-target.  I'm starting to get sick of this arguement of "We don't intentionally target civilians and they do" arguement as if it somehow makes it better.  I'm sure people here couldn't honestly say that they'd be any less angry about the loss of a family member or neighbour due to a mistake by an high tech military force operating in your neighbourhood - especially if you come from a culture where vengence and tribal loyalties have an important positions.  A dead civilian is a dead civilian, no matter how we wish to suger coat the reasons behind our cause of their death....

This sort of cultural misunderstanding is what seems to be leading to alot of our problems in attempting to influence events in the region.  Tamouh's example of Iraq is on the money.  4th Infantry Division came into Anbar province swinging and swaggering, an low and behold, 6 months later the place is a friggen nightmare.  The situation was such a clusterfuck that the OFFICIAL US Marine Corps history places blame on 4ID's leadership for its stronghanded approach.  A book is being written about it right now; here is the discussion over at LF, plus two good aneqdotes from guys on the ground (one which is a section from a book on the Iraq Insurgency).

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5131022531/m/1211092552

Originally posted by ODA 564:
Based on first-hand observations from good friends in the PSYOP and CA units that supported the 4th ID (M) - including TF IRON GUNNER- as well as guys I knew in SF units in that AOR, the 4th ID (M)'s treatment of the Sunni population demonstrably increased the resistenance potential in their AOR.

They were excessively heavy handed.  Their techniques, especially the wide-scale detention of males on little to no cause and their rough treatment of all civilians, made the entire Sunni population angry at them.  This made fertile ground for the seeds of the Sunni insurgency to take root and flourish in.

Here's a first-hand account as told to me by a CA officer who was just sick of what he'd seen. He told me this in Jan 2004 in Bagdhad.  I haven't read the book.

The actions of TF IRON GUNNER Soldiers in wantonly destroying confiscated cars by using them in games of demolition derby is just one example.  Often these cars were the only item of value a family owned.

The males were detained at checkpoints under ridiculous charges, then transfered to Abu Gharib without any attempt to maintain a central database of detainees.  Famlies often had no idea that a father, brother, son had been detained.  The CA team began to use photographs of automobile license plates on a bulletin board so that families could see that their loved one had been detained.

After it became apparent that a large number of TF IRON GUNNER's detainees were innocent, they were returned via CH-47.  Most had never flown and many were violently airsick.  Dropped off at the air field, the TF IRON GUNNER escorts walked them to the gate and told them to 'sod off'.  When they asked to recover their cars, they were taken to the impound lot, which had become a junkyard as Soldiers had played demolition derby with the impounded cars. Men wept and swore at the TF IRON GUNNER Soldiers.  One older man found a Koran torn to pieces in the wreck of his car.

When confronted by the CA team about this, the response was "who cares?'

Shit like that makes people hate the US and see us as brutal occupiers. That makes them want to hurt us back.  It breeds insurgents.

If I was treated like that, I'd be seriously thinking about setting IEDs.

Originally posted by Abu Buckwheat:
I think that report above is on the spot.  For an alternative view here is a chapter from my forthcoming (still waiting for final editing) book "The Terrorists of Iraq - Inside the Strategy and Tactics of the Iraq Insurgency"  All of this occured in 2004 as well.

Losing Al Anbar

In the meantime the Americans were not only antagonizing the last remaining support in Al Anbar province by attacking Fallujah but by losing the support of the largest tribe in Iraq the same time.  On April 11th the Americans made the next critical miscalculation  -they killed Sheik Malik al-Kharbit,  leader of one of the largest tribes in Iraq, and 21 of his immediate family as they slept.  Sheik of the 2 million strong al-Dulaym tribe, Sheik Malik al-Kharbit and his brother Mudher had been in communication with the Americans throughout the reign of Hussein.  Al-Kharbit collaborated with the CIA to find subtle ways to remove the strongman.   The Dulaym tribe ranged from Qaim, Fallujah, Rutbah and Ramadi; a large majority of the Sunnah Triangle.  Yet on this evening US intelligence thought they had isolated a wanted Baathist in the al-Kharbit home.  According to Mudher al-Kharbit the prominent Baathist was Rukan Razuki (also called Rokan Abd al-Ghafur Suleiman al-Majid) Saddam’s former bodyguard in his role, as former chief of tribal affairs for Saddam.  Razuki had come to al-Kharbit under the flag of truce and a request for shelter.  Relying on this tribal tradition amongst Arabs he was given sanctuary and hospitality of al-Kharbit but only for dinner.  Razuki left soon afterwards. As minister of tribal affairs he would be a key player in asking al-Kharbit to join the anti-American alliance or perhaps it was a real request for sanctuary; the Americans never found out.  The Americans apparently decided either that Rukan was too important to the insurgency to let live or a belief that al-Kharbit was actively collaborating with the FRLs and needed to die.  A strategic reconnaissance team was dispatched to the location, observed the activity and reported back their findings.  The house was full of civilians.  Apparently, the coalition determined that the numerous innocent people in the house would just have to die with Razuki and Al-Kharbit.  They would be “collateral damage.”  

On the night of the 11th American bombers dropped six Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or JDAMs, 2000lb precision guided bombs on the al-Kharbit residence, killing him and obliterating his large family.    His brother Mudfeh would recall it this way "History will remember that the Al-Kharbits sacrificed 22 family members for the sake of a guest. It's the tribal way."  The Americans had alienated the most important tribe in western Iraq and created a bloodlust to avenge the family.  Despite overtures by Marine Corps General Mattis, the tribe has not supported the coalition since that time.  

The death of the al-Kharbit family and the Ba’athists trick in giving Fallujah back to the Former Regimes own agents were but two of the litany of failures and miscalculations that were attributable to an ignorance of culture.  Journalist Paul McGeogh noted the observation of a Jordanian analyst about the dilemma the Americans had placed themselves in with their ignorance or dismissal of the cost of the lives of this family.

"The Americans should be trying to win the tribes over. Instead, they kill half of this man's family and they arrest the other half; and when he comes to talk to them, they demand that he take a polygraph test. "If you don't know how to live in this part of the world, the Bedouin and the tribes will teach you a very expensive lesson.  

Fallujah quickly became a center for the foreign fighters, Islamic extremists and FRL terrorists to rest, reload and re-strike the Americans at their leisure.  It once again became a safe haven for the insurgency and the Americans were providing the security.

 

[Edward Campbell]

... Its the survivor of the fittest in that part of the world, and I do not want their problems in the ME to creep to my country.

The only way to prevent that, by disengaging all parties in that region. Let them sort their own problems ...

There are lots of attractions to the “leave ‘em alone to fight ‘er out” proposition – to me, anyway.

Have you thought it through, tamouh?  Do you really want the Arabs (and Iranians and a bunch of North Africans, too) nuked back to stone age, to paraphrase General Curtis Lemay?

That’s the most likely outcome of “ leaving ‘em alone”.  One of the Arab or Iranian groups or governments is, without a doubt, going to master the art of mating a chemical warhead to a medium range missile and one of ‘em is, no doubt, going to acquire a nuclear weapon and some means pf delivering it.  When, not if that happens that/those group(s)/government(s) are going to use those weapons against the Israelis and the Israelis are going to retaliate, in kind and massively and in all directions.

Tehran, Shiraz and Bandar Abbas, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha and Qatar, Muscat, Aden and Sana, Mecca, Medina, Riyadh and Jiddah, Damascus and Lakatia, Tripoli and Beirut, Cairo, Alexandria, Port Said and Aswan, and the other Tripoli will all be reduced to smoking, dirty irradiated ruins.

Tens of millions of Arabs and Iranians will die in the initial blasts – the smallest being much bigger than the Hiroshima bombs - and in the few days following.  Tens of milliosn more will die from radiation sickness.

There will be no help; there will be no mercy.

Europe and Asia and America will turn their backs.

The Arabs and Iranians will be blamed for starting it all.  ”Good riddance to bad rubbish,” is what the Chinese and Dutch and Canadians, too, will say (quietly, to themselves) even as they mouth piteous platitudes.  Out loud they will say: “Help is on the way … <quietly, again> just as soon as it is safe to provide it, which may be in about 1,000 years.”

That suits my agenda, tamouh.  It puts paid to the Wahhabis and all their fellow travellers which is all that concerns me.  We (Canada) may, as a peripheral advantage, get some high quality immigrants/refugees from Israel.  There wont be enough Arab bombs or gas to kill all that many Jews – many will manage to flee and they will look for new ‘promised lands’.

But what about you, tamouh?  Does that suit you, too?  If so, let’s join together and advocate: “leave ‘em alone; let ‘em sort it out amongst themselves.”

 

[paracowboy]

Edward,

my biggest problem with the idea of ignoring them is that we tried it for decades, so they exported their war to our shores. They sky-jacked aircraft, took over cruise ships, and attacked embassies. The murdered innocents by the bucketful along the way.

Now, we have an entire fifth column living in large enclaves in every major city, including my own, which has the largest Muslim community in Canada. The over-whelming majority are good people, some are friends of mine. But when the war explodes over there, it WILL be brought home to roost. They WILL set off explosions in Canada, some to attack their tribal foes, some merely to garner atention for their particular cause.

Either way, Canadian civilians will die.

 

[Edward Campbell]

... we have an entire fifth column living in large enclaves in every major city, including my own ... when the war <my interjection: any war, including the current one, whether 'we' are involved or not> explodes over there, it WILL be brought home to roost. They WILL set off explosions in Canada, some to attack their tribal foes, some merely to garner attention for their particular cause.

Either way, Canadian civilians will die.

I agree but, as I interjected, that will happen anyway.  Leaving 'em alone, or not, is not the major determinant.  That, the determinant, is rage.  Rage at what?  That's another topic.

 

[paracowboy]

That's another topic.

but an inter-related one, and your posts are always informative (dry as a fossil,  ;D but informative) so by all means, expound!

 

[tomahawk6]

The one advantage the US and Canada is that our muslim communities are alot more integrated into our respective societies than they are in Europe. Europe's future is looking grim because of the large muslim communities living in relative isolation and are economically left out of society. Their birth rate is alot higher than the Europeans and could one day be a majority which would alter the culture and history of Europe.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

zipperhead_cop: you're trolling big time, and the mods allow it. If I were to respond to your answers in the same way you've been responding to mine, I assure you the mods would be on my back if not banned already. You make a statement then contradict it. You ask a question then bash the answer (without an intelligent response).

Wah.  I get my warnings from the mods just like everyone else.  However, when someone calls me out and asks me for a solution or answer, I provide it.  If there seems to be an element of annoyance in my responses, it may be that you are annoying in your lack of succinct answers.  And I have yet to accuse you of any lack of intelligence, yet you have attacked me thus.  However, since I am not as thin skinned as you appear to be, I am not hitting the [NOTIFY MOD] button. 

We're not saying force should never be used. If it wasn't for force, Hitler wouldn't have been stopped. However, there is a time and a place for everything. The ME is a place where force will not work. It still follows the tribal rules: " myself against my cousin, my cousin and myself against my enemy" (This is a very popular say in the ME...just one to show).

Oh, so the whole of the middle east can assault and murder Israel ad infinatum, but if they retaliate it's "if you mess with him, you mess with me, so don't even go there"?  Personally I'm glad Israel has more stones than that. 

** This is a bit lengthy, but if you really want to have a small insight about ME politics and wars, this may help **
I'll give you another example, when the Syrians entered Lebanon, they thought simply they could hit the militias positions until its flattened. What really happened, The Syrians would fire at militia positions, and the militia keeps firing back. The Syrians hit, and the militia hits back.

Another example, Current Iraq. Put aside all the political hype, theories. The US defeated the Iraqi army....everything was going great, everybody anxious for a new Iraq. The US began going after the small insurgency that started by mainly Saddam Loyalist supporting him and his two sons. The US would hit, and sometimes mistake its target killing several civilians. Well, the relatives for the dead do not understand nor care what the US was attempting to do. All what they care about revenge for their dead ones, so they go about rebelling against the US and its supported government. The more these things occur, the more people join the rebel forces.

Another example, Israel in Lebanon '80s .... Amal movement (Sheaa movement prior to establishment of Hezbollah), the Christian militia and the PLO where in all out war against each others, Israel enters from the south: Amal, PLO, Syria, the newly made group Hezbollah stand against Israel. The Christian militia is split with part of them join the Israelis and part decide not wanting anything to do with this war.

Another one, You know why Syria entered Lebanon ? Simple....The Sunnis from the North were about to take control over most of Lebanon and the Christian militia was distant for defeat. The Syrians were ASKED by the Christian militia and Lebanese government to intervene and put a stop to the Sunnis. When Syria entered, the Sunnis and the PLO stood against Syria. Syria began arming the Christian militia until.........this is very important.......Syria discovered the Christian militia also were getting supplied from Israel. This is when things in Lebanon went in another direction. The actions of the Christian militia enraged then Syrian President Hafez Al-Assad and he quickly withdrew all support to the militia and sided with the Shea'as party.

Let me take you a little bit earlier end of 1960s, early 1970s....the Syrians armed The PLO leader (Arafat) in Lebanon to counter the Israelis in the south. With these same weapons, the PLO fought against the Syrian army in the late 70s prior to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

****
Added:

These are few examples to show you how wars end up in that region. It has always been like that through out history, there is no right or wrong side. One thing for sure the ME region has alot of .....Men who grave Power!

WOW!!  See, I think if I was an Arab I would be pretty insulted at your insinuation that people from the middle east are mindless revenge mongers that couldn't possibly get their savage heads around the idea that eventually "an eye for an eye" just leaves a bunch of blind people.  Since you trot out various other countries, lets look at them too. 
Iraq:  seems they were pretty content to not rise up against Sadam and exact revenge for all the people he killed.  Where was all that feisty Arab rage when his idiot sons were murdering and raping criss crosses through the country?  Hmm, pretty placid.  Why?  IMO because he was a brutal psycho and to go against him was certain death. 
Lebanon and Syria (with respect to the example you gave):  Seems that indecision and demonstrated lack of resolve is what aggravated the situation.
Further--Egypt:  As mentioned, tried to step up and take out Israel.  Got a whuppin.
Libya:  Tried to be a big shooter too, didn't work out too well. 
So, IMO brutal force is actually pretty effective as long as it is brutal enough long enough.  The whole "you will be my enemy forever" is just jackass caveman thinking.  You can call it culture if you want, but who has benefitted from that mentality?  Palestine?  Lebanon?  Serbia/Croatia, Hutu/Tutsi, etc, etc? 
The one constant that remains is Israel will not give up and go away.  Another constant is that IMO Israel knows the mentality of it's enemy, and knows that if it hits hard enough, they will cave.  You just have to take out the mouth piece.  In law enforcement we see it all the time.  You have a group of ten yapping off and acting like they can take on the world.  You tell the main mouth (invariably the smallest, and least capable) to beat it, and they go off on some "you %$%@#$ will never take me, you better get ten more cops because you don't know what I can do and I will #$%$% you up".  The other nine look all hard and ready to go, but when stick is face down with the ever-expanding red circle under him, suddenly nine people have really interesting shoes and other places to be.  Sometimes a second guy will walk about thirty feet away and start chirping, and once he goes away, things are nice and quiet.
This war has to run it's course.  A victor will emerge. 
And I have yet to hear why Lebanon cannot side with Israel and help them purge Hezbollah?  Other than "they don't want to".
Oh, that's right.  You pigeon holed the entire middle east into a mindless revenge factory that couldn't possible come up with an alternative solution. 

 

[tamouh]

Edward: Show me where to sign. If that is the path they choose, and I'm sure they won't, then its fine with me. Let them sort out their own problems. They are smart people and can make their own decisions...after couple of nukes and generations wiped out, they might realize there is no way out of this but to compromise with each others and make peace (or maybe they wont until someone prevails !!!!)

You can only run the Middle East with an Iron Fest.....any Middle Eastern will tell you that.

zipperhead_cop:
And I have yet to accuse you of any lack of intelligence, yet you have attacked me thus.  However, since I am not as thin skinned as you appear to be, I am not hitting the [NOTIFY MOD] button. 

Nor did I press the notify_mod button, and any neutral viewer of your posts back can confirm what I've said....

Oh, so the whole of the middle east can assault and murder Israel ad infinatum, but if they retaliate it's "if you mess with him, you mess with me, so don't even go there"?  Personally I'm glad Israel has more stones than that. 

Israel (or the UN) put itself in this position. It placed itself in this scenario. In the middle, surrounded all around with Arab nations. You put yourself in such place, you better be prepared to take on the heat....

And I have yet to hear why Lebanon cannot side with Israel and help them purge Hezbollah?  Other than "they don't want to".
Oh, that's right.  You pigeon holed the entire middle east into a mindless revenge factory that couldn't possible come up with an alternative solution.

Until you understand the Middle Eastern culture more, no examples will explain it enough to you. If you're talking about the Middle East, think like a Middle Eastern. There is large difference in tribal loyalties, family bonds, religion favouritism and language preference.

I'll just add another example.....Why did the Arabs rise against the Ottoman empire after 600 yrs ??

In 1908-1915 the CUP (Committee for Union and Progress ) overthrow the Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid II and install his brother Sultan Mohammad Rashad V in his place, thus beginning a stage called "Turkification". Where by the Ottoman empire is slowly being converted into a Turkish state

- At that time, Ottoman empire had still control over most of the Middle East region as known now.

- The Turkification process specifically forces the replacement of Arabic language (The official language of Ottoman Empire in the ME) by the Turkish language, and all senior Arab officials are replaced by Ottoman Turks

- Jamal Pasha , a Turk, also widely known in Arab states as (Jamal Pasha the Butcher) is appointed to take control of Al-Sham region (what is known now as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine).

Mainly when the Ottoman Empire had decided to force its language on the people in the ME, the revolution began. That short period of 10-15 years caused the Ottoman Empire to loose its support in the Arab region. The Arabs sided with Britain against the Ottomans in WW-I and lead to the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire.

Let me bring you another example, The Mongolians as you know conquered South East Asia, Iraq and Al-Sham region before their forces were stopped in Egypt in 1260. The Mongolians in the ME converted to Islam and slowly adopted the Arabic language, they later integrated within the Ottoman Empire to rule the ME after the Mameluke and Seljuk empires fell.  From history its evident to conquer the ME means to adopt to its environment, and not the other way around.

p.s. just as a side note of interest, the general (Saif ad-Din Qutuz) who led the Mameluke Egyptians to victory against the Mongolians was later ambushed by his officers because they feared when he returns to Egypt that he'll claim power for himself.

So before you come back with another question, read up on ME history and learn why in the ME, history is everything !!

 

[Infanteer]

Iraq:  seems they were pretty content to not rise up against Sadam and exact revenge for all the people he killed.  Where was all that feisty Arab rage when his idiot sons were murdering and raping criss crosses through the country?  Hmm, pretty placid.  Why?  IMO because he was a brutal psycho and to go against him was certain death.

Uhh...they did.  Ever hear of the marsh Arabs?  Halabja?  Gordon and Trainor discuss Iraqi files found after the invasion that highlight that Saddam's biggest reason for wanting to hold his chemical stocks - or feign his possession of them - instead of playing ball with the UN was indeed that feisty rage.  He felt the threat of an uprising was enough not to tip his hand.

 

[2 Cdo]

Tamouh, is Hezbollah a terrorist organization or not? Still awaiting an answer, but I doubt if you will acknowledge them as terrorists, after all it's much easier to blame Israel for all the middle easts problems. :

 

[paracowboy]

tamouh,

again, you spew out sidebars, but the bottom line is that either the ME changes and grows or it dies. Which is fine, except that they'll drag everyone else down with them. So, the West will be there.

Here's the crux: The War between those who would spread terror in their attempts to bring back the Caliphate, and us, is on. Period. We will not allow Radical Islam to destroy our way of life, which is their avowed goal.

Your posts are nothing more than a steady stream of terrorist sympathies, and you continue to provide nothing constructive. Defeatism, appeasement, and whining. So either start being part of the solution, and provide workable solutions, or shut up, fer chrissake.


And zip, Infy is right about Iraq. Most Arab nations are run by a small band of savages who keep control via terror, but there are always small groups who resist. They're usually kept around to be trotted out for excuses as to why the leadership HAVE to be totalitarian. With Iraq, it was Sadam's tribe, which he kept in power, and his immediate clan, which he kept in splendour.

I wonder if that accounts for the change from the Arabs being feared and ferocious warriors, to being ineffectual cowards? Something happened in the 18th-19th centuries.

 

[tamouh]

Tamouh, is Hezbollah a terrorist organization or not? Still awaiting an answer, but I doubt if you will acknowledge them as terrorists, after all it's much easier to blame Israel for all the middle easts problems

2 Cdo: Hezbollah is a terrorist oranization....sure. Israel is also the reason for many of the current instabilities in the ME  (Mind you, if Israel wasn't there, I'm sure they would have something else to fight over....like when the Egyptian President Nassir send troops to Yemen to fight against the Saudis in the 60s, or the Syrians against the Jordanians or Turks)

Uhh...they did.  Ever hear of the marsh Arabs?  Halabja?  Gordon and Trainor discuss Iraqi files found after the invasion that highlight that Saddam's biggest reason for wanting to hold his chemical stocks - or feign his possession of them - instead of playing ball with the UN was indeed that feisty rage.  He felt the threat of an uprising was enough not to tip his hand.

In fact, one of the many reasons the Shia'a right now distrust the US government goes back to that incident when GW Bush encouraged the Shia'a in the south to rise against Saddam, but stopped short of supporting them which led to the massacre of many Shia'as in Bassra.

Other examples of such uprisings....The Palestinians against King Hussein (They even assassinated his father the King), The Sunnis against Hafez Al-Assad in 80s which also lead to the complete destruction (flattening) of Hama and the massacre of tens of thousands of people. The Kurds against the Turks, and the Palestinians Intifadas against the Israelis.

Additionally, all these uprisings can easily (and it is) being labeled as terrorist activities by their government. I remember phrases like ("Takfeer Groups" means rejected groups...non-Islamic) for the latest uprisings against Syrian government.

So my question to anyone, would you support these uprisings against their governments knowing in their methods they'll murder civilians, would you support such uprising against Iran or Syria ?

My other point....the "terrorist" attacks occurring in Iraq are nothing but ethnical cleansing. That country in my opinion is heading for a civil war and the result of it will be a Shea'a majority supported by Iran.