Protesting while serving

[mellian]

I'd be careful with being part of one of these protest groups. You have no idea what investigative agency has a file on them, or if they've been linked to more than peaceful protests in the past. No matter how innocent your involvement, you may be waving goodbye to a higher security clearance down the road. There's a lot of digging done that you'll never know about.

Which in some ways it can be silly, like getting black listed for clearances just for standing beside some guy in a protest that you do not know, or being acquaintances with someone for a short time who later commits some dumb crime. Especially if one has no criminal record and presently not active with any protest groups.

 

[mellian]

Here's a different question.What ever happened to people joining who looked forward to beating hippies protesting? ;D

Get back....get back...get back...
Now that's good fun.Tiring but good fun!

I consider them just as idiotic as those who go into protests just to throw stuff at the police or break windows.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Sorry for being Idiotic.Riot control use to be a part of our job I enjoyed,and being a person whom enjoys conflict I would relish heading down to a protest to keep and peace,and when that turned south (as many do) conducting snatch teams or holding the line in a exhausting days work.

I dunno. I find it rewarding to be a part of the solution to idiotic protesters who can't control themselves and suddenly become 6 foot tall and bullet proof once surrounded by a crowd.

Mellian I won't condone your protesting,or beliefs or choice of sport.Just remember we come from totally different times in history,and I have no idea how to deal with young people with your demeanor.I have not had to deal with young people such as yourself in my trade which usually attracts like minded people to myself for the most part.

Believe me I have varying beliefs,some I cannot express until I am not under the Queen's control.I keep them to myself.Other avenues I wish to pursue I look into and usually support financially if legal,and if doesn't cause a conflict of interest with my employer.

And yes I still have wet dreams of smacking war protesters...probably never happen...but just having that thought of having one hit me with something on the line or attempt to drag a soldier off the line into the crowd...oh to daydream.

Good luck in your peaceful protesting.

 

[mariomike]

Well said.

 

[mellian]

From my experience with protests of the 21st century, things go south more out of police intimidation and aggression than some idiot attacking an officer. Worse if the police have the silly idea of seeding 'undercover' cops dress like thugs or some anarchist into the protest, or conduct snatch teams of anyone wearing black clothing or an bandanna.

I admit, I get some kind of rush and enjoyment being in protest, like anything that is action paced. Yet my concern is always making sure the protest is well organized and safe for all involved with no violence than its political message. Of course, that goal can be difficult to achieve when you are dealing with violent prone officers looking to bash a few protester's heads, or simply panic in a violent manner like nearly having a taser in the face. Also does not help when some of those officers taunt you when they are off-duty and outside of protests.

In the end, no matter the differences in politics and views, it is hypocritical for anyone that suppose to keep the peace to wanting to commit acts that breaks it, and then go on holding views of others doing so as well.

Sorry for being Idiotic.Riot control use to be a part of our job I enjoyed,and being a person whom enjoys conflict I would relish heading down to a protest to keep and peace,and when that turned south (as many do) conducting snatch teams or holding the line in a exhausting days work.

I dunno. I find it rewarding to be a part of the solution to idiotic protesters who can't control themselves and suddenly become 6 foot tall and bullet proof once surrounded by a crowd.

Mellian I won't condone your protesting,or beliefs or choice of sport.Just remember we come from totally different times in history,and I have no idea how to deal with young people with your demeanor.I have not had to deal with young people such as yourself in my trade which usually attracts like minded people to myself for the most part.

Believe me I have varying beliefs,some I cannot express until I am not under the Queen's control.I keep them to myself.Other avenues I wish to pursue I look into and usually support financially if legal,and if doesn't cause a conflict of interest with my employer.

And yes I still have wet dreams of smacking war protesters...probably never happen...but just having that thought of having one hit me with something on the line or attempt to drag a soldier off the line into the crowd...oh to daydream.

Good luck in your peaceful protesting.

 

[mariomike]

A detective schools a hippie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo2hhvvlpw&feature=player_embedded#

 

[PuckChaser]

From my experience with protests of the 21st century, things go south more out of police intimidation and aggression than some idiot attacking an officer.

I'd see that being a biased opinion from someone who is out protesting authority. Granted, there are some idiot officers who go way over what should be considered reasonable use of force. How would you like to be on the other side of the riot shield? 50,000 screaming people who really don't care if you get hurt because you're "the man" who's out to get them? I'd be a little antsy to clear up the streets too.

 

[Roy Harding]

I think a lot of you are mistaking "protest" for "violent protest and riots".  One is LEGAL (and in my view, REQUIRED of an informed citizenry), the other is ILLEGAL and should not be participated in by law abiding citizens (including members of the CF).  My views on civil disobedience occupy the grey area between the two - and don't belong on this thread.

I, too, enjoyed the riot control (what used to be called "Internal Security", or IS) aspect of various training I've taken over the years.  One of my favourite memories involves putting down a "riot" by TQ3 Infmn by using a firetruck - in DECEMBER, in Wainwright - during my CLC.  "GET BACK! (BANG)  GET BACK! (BANG), GET BACK YOU FREAKING IDIOTS OR WE'LL FREEZE YOU WHERE YOU STAND".  Good times.  (Wasn't so great when we lost control of the firehose and froze OURSELVES where we stood).

However - don't confuse peaceful and lawful protest with rioting - they aren't the same thing.

As much as I think most protesting is a waste of time (stop protesting what someone ELSE is doing, and start DOING something yourself!), I think there is a valid and profound reason it is legal.  It is, sometimes, the only way the citizenry can get their voice heard.  SOMETIMES, being able to protest (legally), can defuse an inflamed citizenry enough that rioting and insurrection can be avoided. 

I firmly believe that a member of the CF need not fear taking part in any LEGAL protest (unless, of course, that protest is in support of the disbandment of the CF, or some such.)

RIOTING, on the other hand, is something to be avoided by members of the CF, and, when called upon by the civil authority, something to be put down (with firehoses or other means).

 

[X-mo-1979]

From my experience with protests of the 21st century, things go south more out of police intimidation and aggression than some idiot attacking an officer. Worse if the police have the silly idea of seeding 'undercover' cops dress like thugs or some anarchist into the protest, or conduct snatch teams of anyone wearing black clothing or an bandanna.

I admit, I get some kind of rush and enjoyment being in protest, like anything that is action paced. Yet my concern is always making sure the protest is well organized and safe for all involved with no violence than its political message. Of course, that goal can be difficult to achieve when you are dealing with violent prone officers looking to bash a few protester's heads, or simply panic in a violent manner like nearly having a taser in the face. Also does not help when some of those officers taunt you when they are off-duty and outside of protests.

In the end, no matter the differences in politics and views, it is hypocritical for anyone that, and then go on holding views of others doing so as well.

So your blaming protest going south on police aggression?Nice.Do you think snatch teams go out for no purpose?Do you not think the people getting arrested are getting arrested for good reason?

As for the"  suppose to keep the peace to wanting to commit acts that breaks it" its called having a mindset.You go into situations prepared for the worst,hoping for the best.It's called controlled aggression.Something I have applied during my career from lowest use to highest use of force.

I hope and pray that one day if you do get in you get to stare at 60,000 people who are up in your face mouthing off for hours on end,nailing you with rocks, pulling people into the crowd to beat the living piss outta you.

Welcome to the real world.You would be the first to complain if the guys on the line backed off and the crowd destroyed your place of worship,house etc.

 

[mariomike]

One of my favourite memories involves putting down a "riot" by TQ3 Infmn by using a firetruck - in DECEMBER, in Wainwright - during my CLC.  "GET BACK! (BANG)  GET BACK! (BANG), GET BACK YOU FREAKING IDIOTS OR WE'LL FREEZE YOU WHERE YOU STAND".  Good times.  (Wasn't so great when we lost control of the firehose and froze OURSELVES where we stood).

Sounds like good clean fun, Roy! But, you will never see any fire department in North America do that. Not since the riots down south in the 1960's and 1970's.
I should also add that crew cabs were added on big city firetrucks to protect the firemen from rocks etc thrown by rioters. They were vulnerable when they only had the back step to ride on.
However, that doesn't mean the police or CF won't use them!
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42183000/jpg/_42183732_watercanon_ap416.jpg

"In the mid-1960s, major cities throughout the nation experienced episodes of violent civil unrest. Riots and the resulting fires severely overtaxed fire departments, but worse, firefighters and their apparatus became targets. Fire apparatus were bombarded with bricks, bottles, fire bombs and gunshots. Firefighters were killed and injured.

Most apparatus in service at the time were open-cab models, with equipment carried on running boards and other exposed locations, available for rapid use. Inner-city fire companies reacted by constructing makeshift cabs, roof enclosures over the back steps, enclosed tiller seats and even individual personnel enclosures that resembled telephone booths on the apparatus. Some strange-looking apparatus resulted. These events, more than any other single factor, led to the design of crew cabs, where all firefighters rode in enclosed positions, and compartmentation, to carry all tools inside locked compartments."
http://www.firehouse.com/magazine/american/apparatus.html

 

[X-mo-1979]

A detective schools a hippie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo2hhvvlpw&feature=player_embedded#

Jesus I am dragnet!
You guys growing up on instant orange juice.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Here's a video of Brits training americans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oifDFOzoiPQ&feature=PlayList&p=F655604C5CA9F292&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=48

I had a buddy that just finished the course out east.Molotov and all.He said it was a excellent course.

 

[Jungle]

... (and in my view, REQUIRED of an informed citizenry)...

And that is the reason why most protesters should stay away from protests...

 

[mellian]

So your blaming protest going south on police aggression?Nice.Do you think snatch teams go out for no purpose?Do you not think the people getting arrested are getting arrested for good reason?

As for the"  suppose to keep the peace to wanting to commit acts that breaks it" its called having a mindset.You go into situations prepared for the worst,hoping for the best.It's called controlled aggression.Something I have applied during my career from lowest use to highest use of force.

No, I am saying, from my experience, that treating a protest as if all in it are guilty and like a riot is asking for it to become one, asking for people to attack you. From the G20 protest in 2001 to the SPP protest in 2007 in Ottawa, Ottawa Police and RCMP have improved considerably in their handling of major protests and in turn resulted more peaceful protests.

A lot of it is protest groups also improved their handling and organizing of protests, but the biggest is the decrease in the number of police officers, all of them in regular uniform apart from the tactical unit in riot gear held in reserve and out of view, not using any tear gas or dogs or water hose or pepper spray (well, in indiscriminate use anyway). G20 was a huge mess, being smaller version of what happened in Quebec City and Seattle before that. Bush protest when he came to Ottawa for the first time, same number of people or more, yet lot more peaceful and riot gear police only came out for a smaller number of protesters who wanted to vent more directly, with only few of even them getting arrested, those actually responsible for throwing shit at the police and even injuring an officer.

To make the point further, during the Ottawa portion of SPP protests, it was even more peaceful and even less a need of the riot geared tactical unit with practically no arrest. Next day in Montebello, Surete de Quebec used older tactics of intimidation, nearly all police in riot gear, embedded police officers dress like anarchists with holding a rock, and so on. Result? More clashes, lot more arrests, and more prone to violence. 

It fine to be ready for the worse, protest groups I have been involved with do the same, but to go in full of "controlled" aggression, no matter if your the police or one of the protesters, is asking for problems.

I hope and pray that one day if you do get in you get to stare at 60,000 people who are up in your face mouthing off for hours on end,nailing you with rocks, pulling people into the crowd to beat the living piss outta you.

Welcome to the real world.You would be the first to complain if the guys on the line backed off and the crowd destroyed your place of worship,house etc.

Protests are protests, and riots are riots, they are not the same thing. The perspective of riot control is just one piece of the greater picture, not the only version of the world. 

I suggest everyone to watch Battle of Seattle which provides an idea of what happened in that protest and how it degenerated, showing the perspective of nearly all sides.

 

[mellian]

I'd see that being a biased opinion from someone who is out protesting authority. Granted, there are some idiot officers who go way over what should be considered reasonable use of force. How would you like to be on the other side of the riot shield? 50,000 screaming people who really don't care if you get hurt because you're "the man" who's out to get them? I'd be a little antsy to clear up the streets too.

Everyone is bias in some way, but I do not protest the authourity, nor do I partake in rioting which I make a point to avoid. I would not want to join the military if that was the case.

 

[X-mo-1979]

It fine to be ready for the worse, protest groups I have been involved with do the same, but to go in full of "controlled" aggression, no matter if your the police or one of the protesters, is asking for problems.

How do you guys prepare?
Controlled aggression is just that.Controlled.Check out Escalation of force. When military/police get sent into these situations they are given mandates to follow.Deny protest to area X.Keep two disputed protests apart etc.They will use any means necessary to use the least amount of force.However will use all means to ensure their success.

 

[Fusaki]

Mellian,

It still sounds like you're saying it's the cop's fault protests turn into riots.

While I think it's fair to say a poor police judgment can influence an already bad situation to be worse,  I don't believe for a second that Canadian police will turn a peaceful protest into a violent riot.

To say that the police are responsible for any violence is to suggest that they in some way initiated the violence.  But legally, the police can only react to the crowd - thats the escalation of force X-Mo is talking about.  If the police are acting legally - which in Canada I believe they generally do - then any protest turned violent is the fault of the rioters.  Don't pretend like it's the cops who are the bad guys.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I suspect that when a demonstration turns into a riot the organizers are not displeased.  While a demonstration might not make the 11 o'clock news, a riot will and media coverage is the whole point.  The leaders then get to be on TV and blame the police.  These things all seem to be scripted.

Guy in the red shirt at 3 o'clock - fire.  Maybe snatch teams are better but, hey, I'm old school.

 

[mariomike]

Some local protests that I recall:

I worked the Rodney King Riot on Yonge St. ( Metro version ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZtRw9II2s&feature=player_embedded#

Here is a rock concert that got out of hand at the ( Toronto ) CNE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scrIUhGUQuo&feature=geosearch

"Operation Soap" protest:
http://www.yorku.ca/jspot/5/stand_together/3/1981_Raids_Headlines/gallery/pages/largest_mass_arrest_since_FLQ.htm
http://www.yorku.ca/jspot/5/stand_together/3/1981_Raids_Headlines/gallery/pages/3000_riot.htm

But, this is the place I remember most. Elevators never seemed to work! :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_College

 

[mellian]

Some of you still have a distinction problem on the differences of a protest and a riot.

A riot is bunch of people randomly causing violence and vandalism, destroying windows, attacking the police or whoever, and possibly fighting among themselves if there are opposing groups. Riots can happen without a political reason or message, and not always out of anger either.

Montreal Canadians won the Stanley Cup! *crowd riots throughout downtown* Montreal Canadians lost the Stanley Cup! *crowd riots* Rock band singer cancels in the last minute *good chunk of people waiting in line riots* An unarmed person got shot by the police which may base on some discrimination *riots against the police*

Protests are specifically organized, not random, and with a political message. Protest groups prepare in case a protest degenerates, usually base around probably reactions of the police, and some cases because of a minority decides to be more direct and attack or provoke the police in some way and then hide among peaceful protesters. Those organizing the protests discourage violence and vandalism, or at least ask those that plan to to do so away from peaceful protests so the police do not confuse the two.

Protest groups, at least those I been involved with, do what we can to keep the peace during protests and keep people safe, yet have lawyer/legal volunteers on hand to deal with arrests no matter who they are protester or bystander, we have designated medics to take care of injuries, provide water, and supplies to deal with tear gas, marshals and coordinators to help direct large of amount of people away from any violent confrontations, etc. We do what we possibly can, and the rest is up to the police. If police do what they can on their end to hold the peace as well, then we have a generally peaceful protests with  little to no arrests. When the police treat peaceful protesters as rioters and violently punish entire group for the idiocy of a few, then a protest is more prone to degenerate.

No side has all the blame, but all does have to work toward a peaceful protest for it to become and stay peaceful. Since the police are the authourity in these situations, they have a larger responsibility of holding themselves together. If I am ever on that side of the line, I will make that point whenever I can.