Pte. Robert Costall killed in Afghanistan firefight 29 Mar 2006

[Trinity]

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060402/afghanistan_ffire_060404

Gen. Lewis McKenzie comments

McKenzie said people should remember that whatever the outcome of the friendly fire investigation, Canadian, U.S. and Afghan troops did repel the Taliban and caused significant enemy casualties.

"In my estimation, it's a combat casualty -- full stop."

The end. 

 

[tomahawk6]

Official press release.

http://www.cfc-a.centcom.mil/News%20Release/2006/04-April/UPDATE%20Attack%20on%20base%20in%20Helmand%20Province.htm

COMBINED FORCES COMMAND – AFGHANISTAN
COALITION PRESS INFORMATION CENTER
KABUL, AFGHANISTAN
APO AE 09356
http://www.cfc-a.centcom.mil

News Desk: 070-223-758
Press Center: 070-276-545
Kabul-Presscenter@cfc-a.centcom.mil

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 4, 2006
Release # 060404-03
Release in Dari



UPDATE: Attack on base in Helmand Province



KABUL, Afghanistan -- At about 1:30 a.m. March 29, enemy forces attacked a Coalition base in the Sangin District of Helmand Province with direct and indirect fire.

The base, known as Forward Operating Base Robinson, is strategically located to support Afghan National Army efforts to extend the reach of the Afghan government and to allow Afghan and U.S. forces to defeat enemy activity by denying insurgents sanctuary, freedom of movement and the ability to reconstitute.

The base was defended by ANA, U.S. and Canadian forces.

Defending against the attack, coalition forces employed small-arms fire and close-air support. One Canadian and one U.S. Soldier were killed. Three Canadians, one U.S. service member and one Afghan National Army soldier were wounded.

After reviewing initial reports of enemy contact the Combined Forces Command – Afghanistan commander determined that an investigation was warranted.  The commander of the Coalition’s Combined Joint Task Force – 76 formed a U.S., Canadian and Afghan investigation team made up of personnel with operational and technical expertise. The result will be three separate national investigative reports.

The investigation will determine all the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident, including whether any of the casualties may have resulted from friendly fire.

At least 12 insurgents were killed in the immediate vicinity of the operating base. Another 20 were killed after Coalition forces pursued them. In the course of their pursuit, Coalition forces destroyed two Taliban headquarters buildings and overran a Taliban compound. The Coalition forces discovered and destroyed large caches of munitions, including weapons and materials for making improvised explosive devices.

 

[Kat Stevens]

"It was in this narrow space between that concertina wire and the sandbag perimeter where Pte. Costall died in the dirt, as the so-called quick-reaction force, or QFR, composed of Canadians from 7 Platoon of Charlie Company scrambled to defend the FOB, then under sustained attack from the Taliban from the compounds and small hills just outside the wire."

Why "so called"?  Were they not Quick?  Did they not react? Were they not in Force?  Kinda makes his demise sound like there was something lacking in the effort, doesn't it?  Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive to press lately....

 

[Tilstonguy]

 

[gnplummer421]

I agree with the "press" issue. I'm starting to get a burnt out feeling trying to absorb all the information regarding this issue. (firefight) I don't know which of the various newspaper/TV news reports/articles to believe anymore.

At least on this forum there is a common feeling and sense of direction (for the most part anyway), which provides some clarity for me.

It must have been a very tough night for everyone involved in this firefight, yet they all performed so courageously and professionally.

Gnplummer

 

[Michael Dorosh]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060402/afghanistan_ffire_060404/20060404?hub=TopStories

If it is true hopefully we can take better measures if that's possible for tgt identification.

Like doing the sensible thing and asking the enemy not to attack us in poor light conditions? "if that's possible"...

As for the comment about the moment of silence during the hockey game - call me insensitive but I don't think private soldiers short of Smokey Smith merit a national day of mourning. I mean, once you set that precedent, what happens if we get involved in a major conflict? We wouldn't have flown our flag at all from 1939 to 1945.  Generally flying flags at half staff nationwide is reserved for heads of state - not sure what the regs are.  I suspect a lot of people waived that when the four Mounties were killed at Mayerthorpe.

 

[m410]

Michael, there was an article yesterday about flag lowering:

Flags not lowered for slain soldiers

It starts as a bit of an anti-Conservative hatchet job but at the end there is some different perspective.

Personally I think all this grief mongering will kill our ability to fight.  If Korean War casualties got reported the way contemporary ones do we'd have been out of there very fast.  Reporting WW1 or WW2 casualties this way would, of course, be impossible.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Michael, there was an article yesterday about flag lowering:

Flags not lowered for slain soldiers

It starts as a bit of an anti-Conservative hatchet job but at the end there is some different perspective.

Personally I think all this grief mongering will kill our ability to fight.  If Korean War casualties got reported the way contemporary ones do we'd have been out of there very fast.  Reporting WW1 or WW2 casualties this way would, of course, be impossible.

Hmm, I read it as anti-Liberal but we all have our biases.  One salient point in the article - consistency.  I read the article thinking that it implied the Liberals were pandering to public sentiment by changing a decades old tradition.  Chadderton seems to feel Normandy vets "deserve" it more than Afghan vets, so if they didn't get it why should "we".  I think more importantly though - as you point out - we couldn't do it for Normandy vets because the bloody flag would never be raised at all. Moreover, it cheapens the whole notion. When a Prime Minister dies, that's a truly national event, (or a Lieutenant Governor in a province) and the lowering of the flag is hugely symbolic. Now we seem to do it so often, we very often have no clue who it is in honour of. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If it can be ordered lowered for the shooting victims at the LÉcole Polytechnique de Montreal, to make a political point, it can damn well be lowered for the soldiers that are sacrificing themselves in the service of our nation.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And I'm getting real tired and pissed off at these scum sucking journalists, from across the country, who have taken the simple statement, from a Coalition press release:

'The investigation will determine all the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident, including whether any of the casualties may have resulted from friendly fire.'

and in mere hours have turned it into the number one, fear mongering, over the top, CNN drone style story of the day. "Canadian Soldier Killed by Friendly Fire!!!? Knowing full well no one will notice the question mark, denoting a rhetorical question, instead of the sensationalistic byline they intended. They're all a bunch of worthless hacks. Monkeys with typewriters.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

If it can be ordered lowered for the shooting victims at the LÉcole Polytechnique de Montreal, to make a political point, it can damn well be lowered for the soldiers that are sacrificing themselves in the service of our nation.

Why compound a mistake with a second mistake though? Don't get me wrong, those ladies deserve commemoration of some form. Just as all our soldiers, be they rollover victims of fatal GSWs. But cheapening our traditions is not the way to do it. IMO. Some might argue that PMs etc. are no longer above the common herd and we don't need to distinguish classes in our society. There is merit to that viewpoint too. I just don't agree with it.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

And I'm getting real tired and pissed off at these scum sucking journalists, from across the country, who have taken the simple statement, from a Coalition press release:

'The investigation will determine all the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident, including whether any of the casualties may have resulted from friendly fire.'

and in mere hours have turned it into the number one, fear mongering, over the top, CNN drone style story of the day. "Canadian Soldier Killed by Friendly Fire!!!? Knowing full well no one will notice the question mark, denoting a rhetorical question, instead of the sensationalistic byline they intended. They're all a bunch of worthless hacks. Monkeys with typewriters.

And if they have inside information that this was friendly fire, do they not serve us better by suggesting it - with a question mark?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If they had inside info, they'd be clamouring to release it for the 'I got it first' award. Defend them if you will Mike, they're just revving up the public for market share and their own selfish reasons. Making points off of dead soldiers. I would much rather wait till the facts came out and were disclosed tactfully, coldly and to the point, without all the speculation to satify shareholders. But that's just my own opinion and I don't care if any one else feels the contrary.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

If they had inside info, they'd be clamouring to release it for the 'I got it first' award. Defend them if you will Mike, they're just revving up the public for market share and their own selfish reasons. Making points off of dead soldiers. I would much rather wait till the facts came out and were disclosed tactfully, coldly and to the point, without all the speculation to satify shareholders. But that's just my own opinion and I don't care if any one else feels the contrary.

Let's be fair with me for a second, I wasn't defending anyone - I was presenting an alternative viewpoint. I was also putting myself in their shoes, under the assumption they have to work to put meat and potatoes on the table, same as you and me.

So, what's the solution?

 

[military granny]

This is my opinion and only my opinion

The journalists that are putting out reports everyday are digging for stories, no matter who they hurt or how much pain they cause to the families involved. Now the Army( and please don't get me wrong the men and women serving our country are on my mind every day as is my son in the sandbox) has learned a thing or two and will not release the names of injured soldiers. This brings me great joy knowing other families are not being pestered like we were when the boy was hurt. But for any journalist to go ask a family how they feel that their son may have been a victim of friendly fire when they haven't even buried this young man is utter cr*p. As a mother I would be more than angry, I would tear the eyes out of said journalist.

 

[George Wallace]

Why compound a mistake with a second mistake though? Don't get me wrong, those ladies deserve commemoration of some form. Just as all our soldiers, be they rollover victims of fatal GSWs. But cheapening our traditions is not the way to do it. IMO. Some might argue that PMs etc. are no longer above the common herd and we don't need to distinguish classes in our society. There is merit to that viewpoint too. I just don't agree with it.

OK guys.  I have a solution!  I propose that we all start a petition and gather signatures and send it off to the New Government stating that "it should be Government Policy to fly the National Flag at Half-Mast 365 days of the year."  That should keep us happy and every other fringe group that may have some stake to claim.  :

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's the rules for the half-staffing of flags....

http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/occasion_e.cfm

"The half-masting of national flags is a well-established procedure whereby countries bestow an honour and express a collective sense of sorrow."

(...)

"When an employee of a federal department, agency or Crown corporation dies in the line of duty or by reason of the position he or she occupies within that federal department, agency or Crown corporation, the Minister responsible for that organization may decide to Half-mast the Flag. Half-masting in such circumstances can only be carried out on those buildings and establishments affiliated to the organization."

Hence, the half-staffing at DND establishments with Costall's death....

(...)

"In exceptional circumstances, and on the advice of the Department of Canadian Heritage and the recommendation of the Clerk of the Privy Council, the Prime Minister may approve the Half-masting of the Flag on the Peace Tower, and/or on all or some federal buildings and establishments in Canada or abroad, that is not provided for in the Rules."

Seems pretty clear - it's up to the PM to decide, or at least for Heritage Canada to advise and the Clerk of the Privy Council/PCO to recommend. 

http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/berne-halfmasting/index_e.cfm

"January 15, 2006 - Death of Canadian in Afghanistan - The National Flag of Canada is to be flown at half-mast on the Peace Tower in Ottawa from now until sunset on Sunday, January 15, 2006, for Mr. Glyn Berry, an official from Foreign Affairs Canada who was killed today in Afghanistan."

Why did nobody at Heritage Canada or PCO didn't think this was worth doing, especially in a gov't where an injured solider from Afghanistan and a survivor of the HMCS Chicoutimi problems are invited to attend the Speech from the Throne?  Especially when the Peace Tower flag went 1/2 staff for a diplomat killed in Afghanistan?

As for the media, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.  They will always look for the "if it bleeds, it leads" story, but if they're not somewhere when Canadian men and women are in harm's way, there are going to be those asking, "why the hell aren't they telling the story?" 

As a former reporter myself, I like to think anyone approaching a family in mourning would be respectful.  Mind you, I've been asked by one news manager why, when referring to a man charged in the shaking death of his baby, I didn't use the term "baby killer" in the copy, so perhaps I'm still a bit naive.... :-[

 

[George Wallace]

milnewstbay

The problem does not only lie with the Public or the Government.  It can also be found in the CF.  There are instances of an Air Force type (for example purposes only) in the Base HQ of CFB Tummmytuck, Somewhere, who also feel "It is an Army matter, and we are Air Force" attitude that can be found around the CF Bases at times.  Some people of rank have seperated their jobs from those of the rest of the CF. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

George W:

Would it be too bold to call such loose cannons, say, "warlords", thinking they know better than the rest of the system? 

To be entirely fair (maybe too balanced), though, it's not impossible (although not in MOST cases of such warlordism) that somene is a bit disgruntled by previous decisions from on high.  For example, I won't give too much detail about a recent situation, but how would you feel if you were in an Armoury, wondering whether to put the flag at half-staff, with no written direction - one officer on site says, "let's do it", the next level of command (some distance away) says, "no, you won't do it unless WE tell you to", and the higher bosses in Ottawa do so without sendnig out a piece of paper.

Still, you raise a good point re:  how many points in the system can see mistakes/errors in judgement happen...

 

[Scott57]

For those curious about the American soldier lost.

http://jan_edward.blogspot.com/2006/04/dubbel-tragisch-broer-dana-stone.html

Dana Stone bought his own ticket to Vietnam in 1966 and started working as a stringer for the Associated Press (AP). Stone, who had to be taught how to use a Nikon when he arrived in Saigon, ended up with his combat photos on the cover of Time magazine a year later. In 1968 Stone and his wife left Saigon for Europe, then returned to Vietnam in 1970.

Dana Stone vanished on April 6, 1970, on Route 1 in Cambodia (along with Sean Flynn, the son of the actor Errol Flynn).

Tom Stone was a junior in high school when his older brother Dana disappeared in Cambodia. Tom Stone joined the Army in 1971 shortly after he graduated from Woodstock High School, motivated at least in part by a desire to learn what had happened to his brother.

On March 29, 2006, Sgt 1st Class Tom Stone (still a soldier 35 years later), was killed in combat in Afghanistan.