Reconstitution

[Halifax Tar]

I see.

How much sea time do you have?

I have 246 days away from home (sea days) just this year. And I'm not home yet...

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have 246 days away from home (sea days) just this year. And I'm not home yet...

I think the technical term for that is ‘exile’

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It really sounds like the RCN has to accept some reality, tie up some of the CFP, go to a double crew system. Where one crew sails for X amount of time, then the other crew meets the ship wherever and takes over, the other crew goes home, rests, family and courses. then people could plan their lives a bit better and not burn out. You really need about 2.5 crews per ship to allow for leave, courses and injuries. this is generally how the CCG and commercial vessels operate and it works.

 

[QV]

It really sounds like the RCN has to accept some reality, tie up some of the CFP, go to a double crew system. Where one crew sails for X amount of time, then the other crew meets the ship wherever and takes over, the other crew goes home, rests, family and courses. then people could plan their lives a bit better and not burn out. You really need about 2.5 crews per ship to allow for leave, courses and injuries. this is generally how the CCG and commercial vessels operate and it works.

I don't know a single organization in the CAF that staffs appropriately to cover those requirements.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think the technical term for that is ‘exile’

No one wants a tight head around until its time wheel a scrum

 

[Quirky]

I don't know a single organization in the CAF that staffs appropriately to cover those requirements.

Nah, the responsibilities just get passed along to the people still left.

 

[Navy_Pete]

And that is the biggest problem facing the RCN. Nobody in the RCN seems willing to promote it as a career option.

I actually haven't said anything either way, but after having grown up as a kid of someone sailing a lot , and then otherwise seeing me beaten down working crazy hours outside of that it does it's own anti-recruiting. As I'm sure there are army brats and chair force kids that similarly wouldn't think of joining that element for similar reasons.

I enjoyed it most of the times for myself, but have also hated the impact it's had on my family, so pretty mixed feelings overall.

 

[Navy_Pete]

It really sounds like the RCN has to accept some reality, tie up some of the CFP, go to a double crew system. Where one crew sails for X amount of time, then the other crew meets the ship wherever and takes over, the other crew goes home, rests, family and courses. then people could plan their lives a bit better and not burn out. You really need about 2.5 crews per ship to allow for leave, courses and injuries. this is generally how the CCG and commercial vessels operate and it works.

That would absolutely run the CPF into the ground, and 2.5 crews per ship would leave us with 2.5-3 CPFs, and 0 submarines.

 

[FSTO]

Sure, but for some of the combat systems equipment, we can no longer do the maintenance ourselves, and troubleshooting is limited to 'the system says this card doesn't work'. On a lot of the mechanical systems, we hit the same wall, but generally a lot deeper into the equipment. With things like the AEGIS system there will be a lot of things that are US only, so we will only be allowed to call for help.

I suspect if we were honest we'd merge a lot of the WEng techs with the radar and sonar operators for CSC, give better training to weapon and ammo techs, and transfer some of the billets to the electricians and control techs that keep the plant running and can do a lot of maintenance at sea, as well as emergency repairs when things hit the fan.

Also means some fundamental changes to how we plan work periods, so that there is actually time to fix things and do maintenance with resources avaialble, as we will no longer have people to cover the gaps when things break down, so need a lot higher level of system status leaving the wall if you want to keep doing the job as things break through normal wear and tear plus enemy damage.

That won't happen

Have you been listening in on the OA discussions?

 

[FSTO]

Based on watching my kids pass through the school system (including one now in university) and the complete absence of any recruiting presence in all that time, no one in the CAF seems interested in engaging with young people for the purposes of promoting military careers these days.

The folks at Strat Outreach would like to disagree (although UVic may be an unique issue. Then again the Annex in Toronto hasn't had much of a military mindset recently either.

 

[FSTO]

I have heard some dits about why we don't take cadets to sea with us anymore.

Something about sea cadets, a trip to Oz; and coming back screwed, lewd and tattooed.

Apparently this didn't sit well with the parents.

Dude, that was in 1992!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That would absolutely run the CPF into the ground, and 2.5 crews per ship would leave us with 2.5-3 CPFs, and 0 submarines.

You (RCN) would have cut back your commitments and accept some of the hard reality. You could do mini refits and cycle the CFP that are capable into the operational role, but reduce the numbers so you can swap out crews. It would mean you have to change how you are doing things. But going what I see here, your going to crash and burn anyways.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Dude, that was in 1992!

For some of us that was just like yesterday

 

[Navy_Pete]

You (RCN) would have cut back your commitments and accept some of the hard reality. You could do mini refits and cycle the CFP that are capable into the operational role, but reduce the numbers so you can swap out crews. It would mean you have to change how you are doing things. But going what I see here, your going to crash and burn anyways.

Well, the current DWPs (not refits) are condition based, and coming in at $500M and 1 million plus hours (without arisings) so a 'mini refit' would likely still be at insane costs and take a while.

They are fixing things like plate holed below the waterline, decks holed below tiles, failed piping, etc so it's all pretty fundamental stuff you can't mitigate (beyond what we are doing).

Op cycles are extending from 5 years to 6-8, so by the time the ships get the DWPs they are really tired.

Don't worry, our funding was... uh... cut, so our option is to extend the refits while cutting work so the bare minimum at least gets done.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Have you been listening in on the OA discussions?

And feeding them from various angles of attack, sometimes as part of WGs. I was joking about going as a 'good idea fairy' for Halloween, but sometimes feels that way.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well, the current DWPs (not refits) are condition based, and coming in at $500M and 1 million plus hours (without arisings) so a 'mini refit' would likely still be at insane costs and take a while.

They are fixing things like plate holed below the waterline, decks holed below tiles, failed piping, etc so it's all pretty fundamental stuff you can't mitigate (beyond what we are doing).

Op cycles are extending from 5 years to 6-8, so by the time the ships get the DWPs they are really tired.

Don't worry, our funding was... uh... cut, so our option is to extend the refits while cutting work so the bare minimum at least gets done.

If we reduced commitments, then the wear and tear of the ships and the crews would be reduced.

 

[dapaterson]

If we reduced commitments, then the wear and tear of the ships and the crews would be reduced.

It is well past the point where there's an ability to reduce wear and tear on the ships. Their physical state is such that significant time and effort is required on even the ones in best condition to keep them limping along until the first of the River class arrives.

 

[lenaitch]

Never had that experience. Universities are more than happy to have the CAF pay for a booth at their career fairs. But if the local cfrc doesn’t have its act together they are more reactive than proactive in their approach

It’s normally the student groups that are the issue.

Them and some teacher unions.

Military recruiters prey on students

The U of M annual Career Fair took place on Jan. 17 and 18, allowing students and alumni to network with potential employers and gain a better

themanitoban.com

(A few years old)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bctf-pulls-controversial-online-counter-military-recruitment-posters-1.3850942

It's not just military. Police services face similar barriers. With schools, it is often the boards.

Ottawa and Grand River area.

Ontario schools expected to welcome police into classroom events, education minister says

Minister speaks out after incidents where police officers were barred from speaking to students while wearing their uniforms

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Eaglelord17]

I see.

How much sea time do you have?

Just around 178 or so in a 1 year span that the ship I was on could sail (got it back out of refit when I showed up).

Not to mention most of that sailing was a week here, weekend there. Really lead to a extremely poor work/life balance. I would have preferred a longer span out followed by a longer span alongside.

 

[Navy_Pete]

It is well past the point where there's an ability to reduce wear and tear on the ships. Their physical state is such that significant time and effort is required on even the ones in best condition to keep them limping along until the first of the River class arrives.

Also, two weeks after the Reconstitution announcement to slow things down, the GoC actually increased the RCN commitment in the Pacific, while also holding to the already unsustainable commitment in the Atlantic.

Suspect about half the CPFs will 'self divest' before the River class is starting to get delivered, and will go into extended readiness alongside for a while and act as part bins for the rest of the class, especially as our NP funding cuts included cuts to money for buying spares now, which is a long lead impact that we never really catch up to, and there are already lots of empty bins not being replenished.

Happy Halloween!