Repaying Allowances

[krzy8kim]

Clarification of CBI 205.461

A Reg F mbr has just rtn'd to duty after 1 year of MATA/PATA leave and full allowances.  Mbr has refused new TOS but current TOS will allow mbr to serve 6 months before release.  However, mbr wishes to transfer to PRes Class 'A' service in order to serve the remaining 6 months required without having to repay any allowances.  Is this permissable?

 

[armyvern]

Personally,

I sure f'n hope not.

The CF topped her up, let her honour that:

"(d) agrees to serve a period of service equivalent to the period during which the member received MATA, PATA or both, immediately on completing the maternity leave, parental leave or any other leave without pay and allowances as applicable."

Class A days do not count towards service the same ratio as B or C, and certainly not RegF service. She recd allowances based on top up to 93% of her RegF pay per month ...

I'd argue that it'll take her a very long time at Class A days to work back the equivelant time (in real time) that she recd the 6 months of benefits for.

If she manages to pull off this scam, let me know --- it'll then be time for me to get out of this 'what can the CF do for me this week' outfit.

 

[armyvern]

Here's another one:

"205.461(9) (Reduced period of MATA and PATA) A member who does not have sufficient time remaining in their terms of service or period of service to serve the required period of service under subparagraph (3)(d), or chooses to serve a lesser period of service, is entitled to receive MATA and PATA during a period of service equivalent to the shorter of the period of service available to serve and the period of service the member chooses to serve."

Seeing that A Class eligibility is even calculated differently from RegF full time in that Class A entitlement to top up is calculated based only upon "the actual number of Class A days worked in the 364 days prior to Mat leave commencing" ...

"Total paid days on Class “A” Reserve Service X Current rate of pay for the last rank and applicable incentive pay category achieved on Class A Res Service."

I'd argue that she'd have to serve the equivelant of "6 months worth of working daysas Class A" to comply with the CBI.

Seems to me, if she knew she wasn't going to serve the year (ie sign the new TOS) upon her return from MATA (thus NOT meeting the above criteria), she should have been smart enough NOT to take that extra 6 months worth of top-up allowance ...

Check her file --- they do make pers sign the paperwork these days noting that they have read and understood the implications of their "accepting" top-up and that by accepting such they agree to fullfill the same time to the CF as collected for or pay it back.

 

[krzy8kim]

Thanks ArmyVern for your input.  All I can do is pass this information along.

 

[George Wallace]

Clarification of CBI 205.461

A Reg F mbr has just rtn'd to duty after 1 year of MATA/PATA leave and full allowances.  Mbr has refused new TOS but current TOS will allow mbr to serve 6 months before release.  However, mbr wishes to transfer to PRes Class 'A' service in order to serve the remaining 6 months required without having to repay any allowances.  Is this permissable?

Just a little point on this; the CF does not have to Release a person at that person's leisure.  A mbr may request a Release, but the CF will have the final say as to when that Release will be effective.  In this case, the CF could simply take its time and hold the mbr for the 6 months during the Release process.

Does this happen?  Yes it does.  I know a Lt who requested a 30 day Release in 2008 to do a CT to a Class B posn in the Reserves, and was held 6 months,........... and was even Posted during that timeframe, before Release. 

 

[noway]

I'd argue that she'd have to serve the equivelant of "6 months worth of working daysas Class A" to comply with the CBI.

You may want to check the A-PM-245 Chap 17.  In regards to MATA/PATA, Class A service is not reckoned in actual days when determining the period of service required.

 

[armyvern]

You may want to check the A-PM-245 Chap 17.  In regards to MATA/PATA, Class A service is not reckoned in actual days when determining the period of service required.

"Total paid days on Class “A” Reserve Service X Current rate of pay for the last rank and applicable incentive pay category achieved on Class A Res Service."

It is for the top-up allowance. The quote above is from the CBI for determination of MATA top-up for Class A. That's what she's trying to avoid paying back. She wants to serve her reamining 6 months of "time-owed" (that she signed and agreed to in writing) back as a Class A ... then she should be entitled to keep only the MATA that she received during her last 6 months on MATA based upon the actual number of "paid days" she works as a Class QA for the 6 months after her CT.

She's trying to do 6 months of Class A service ... to pay back benefits she recd for 182 days worth of top-up she collected at a Reg F top-up rate.

A RegF girl collects 365 days worth of top-up ... she gets to serve 365 after her MATA to keep them. She does 183 days and then gets out, she gets to pay those other 182 days worth that she collected back (ie serve that 6 months as a full time soldier 24/7.

Why should this one be able to work 6 months as a Class A at very few hours per month and be able to keep hers?

Class A service does not = Full time service ... not even upon enrollment or CT into the RegF where it is calculated at only partial value. Why should it work differently for benefits? In order to collect it, she signed the paperwork. Hold her to it, or make her pay it back.

I'm tired of watching people ride the gravy train. Trying to find any angle to wiggle their way out of promises they made (else the consequences of paying it back) ... meanwhile we have a war to pay for and injured soldiers to support.

 

[PMedMoe]

I'm tired of watching people ride the gravy train. Trying to find any angle to wiggle their way out of promises they made (else the consequences of paying it back) ... meanwhile we have a war to pay for and injured soldiers to support.

Well said, Vern!!!

 

[noway]

I'm not disagreeing with you that it doesn't appear to be fair, but until the rules are changed we're stuck abiding by them.

 

[CountDC]

I'm not disagreeing with you that it doesn't appear to be fair, but until the rules are changed we're stuck abiding by them.

which is exactly the point Vern has made.

CBI:  205.461.(3)(d)

agrees to serve a period of service equivalent to the period during which the member received MATA, PATA or both, immediately on completing the maternity leave, parental leave or any other leave without pay and allowances as applicable.

Means:  you were given 1 year full time, you give back 1 year full time.

205.461(12) (Repayment) Subject to paragraph (13), a member, who does not serve the required period of service under subparagraph (3)(d) at the end of the maternity leave, parental leave or any other leave without pay and allowances, shall repay all or a portion of the MATA, PATA or both.

this means she should have to pay back a portion of what she received.

The A-PM-245 (1758) backs up the CBI.

If they allow this then I'm getting my last 9 months in the reg f off with 93% pay, transfer to reserves and do my 1 day a month to keep off NES for 9 months - what a great deal.  Hopefully someone in the process thinks like me and puts a quick stop to this crap.

In case anyone wonders - the only part to be paid back is the top off the military has paid.  the EI portion is hers to keep regardless. 

 

[krzy8kim]

A little FYI.  Mbr has been a loyal and dedicated soldier and served on numerous tours.  Mbr has decided that the next couple of years family is #1.  Mbr doesn't want to completely leave the forces and is going to transfer to the Res F regardless and intends on working full time in the Res or in the Reg F again once the babies have started school.  Mbr is fully aware of the consequences of paying back benefits received.  Mbr is not trying to "ride the gravy train" or trying to "pull of a scam".  Mbr had anticipated getting out of the Reg F and is/was prepared to repay benefits and did in fact have allowances ceased but unfortunately mbr and mbr's family didn't make this decision soon enough in advance and mbr will have to repay benefits if Class A cannot be deemed as a period of service.  I would like to see this mbr not put through the hardship of taking loans to pay back monies owed, if time can be paid back through class A time - even at 1/4 time.  If
that can be done I would like to know.  Thanks.

 

[armyvern]

A little FYI.  Mbr has been a loyal and dedicated soldier and served on numerous tours.  Mbr has decided that the next couple of years family is #1.  Mbr doesn't want to completely leave the forces and is going to transfer to the Res F regardless and intends on working full time in the Res or in the Reg F again once the babies have started school.  Mbr is fully aware of the consequences of paying back benefits received.  Mbr is not trying to "ride the gravy train" or trying to "pull of a scam".  Mbr had anticipated getting out of the Reg F and is/was prepared to repay benefits and did in fact have allowances ceased but unfortunately mbr and mbr's family didn't make this decision soon enough in advance and mbr will have to repay benefits if Class A cannot be deemed as a period of service.  I would like to see this mbr not put through the hardship of taking loans to pay back monies owed, if time can be paid back through class A time - even at 1/4 time.  If
that can be done I would like to know.  Thanks.

Doesn't she have an orderly room to look after her? Or was it an answer she didn't like so now your doing further queries for her? Or are you her? Does she have a tongue?

I mean, geeez, she's a big girl and all. And, if you are her orderly room posing the question here on the internet ...

yikes.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So...if the Mbr CTs to PRes and then decides to not show up for Unit Trg, goes NES...whats that saying about good intentions?

I think the CBI is clear.  Mbr pays back time for time, or pays back the $ amount of the benefit.

This thread makes me think of that V05 shampoo commercial, where she told 2 friends, and so on, and so on, and so on...it would set a (IMO) bad precedent where people could say "well, Sgt Bloggins was able to do it when he/she CTd and took an ARE position with the 119 Mukluk Repair Regiment in 96th Bde".

 

[krzy8kim]

Seems I've hit a nerve with you ArmyVern!  Mbr is a friend of mine and she doesn't have access to a computer right now.  Upon starting her release it was brought to her attention that reserve class A time may be possible for repayment of time.  And now would like to be more informed before approaching her OR as she too didn't believe Reserve Cl A would be an accepted "period of svc" but after reading up on the reg's and APM-245 Chapt 17, it appears that it may be possible.  It doesn't say you cannot transfer from Reg F to Res F to serve the time.  So, a PRes mbr receives MATA/PATA for 6 months and then transfers to the Reg F - she would have to repay the benefits?  I think not!

 

[CountDC]

A little FYI.  Mbr has been a loyal and dedicated soldier and served on numerous tours.  Mbr has decided that the next couple of years family is #1.  Mbr doesn't want to completely leave the forces and is going to transfer to the Res F regardless and intends on working full time in the Res or in the Reg F again once the babies have started school.  Mbr is fully aware of the consequences of paying back benefits received.  Mbr is not trying to "ride the gravy train" or trying to "pull of a scam".  Mbr had anticipated getting out of the Reg F and is/was prepared to repay benefits and did in fact have allowances ceased but unfortunately mbr and mbr's family didn't make this decision soon enough in advance and mbr will have to repay benefits if Class A cannot be deemed as a period of service.  I would like to see this mbr not put through the hardship of taking loans to pay back monies owed, if time can be paid back through class A time - even at 1/4 time.  If
that can be done I would like to know.  Thanks.

do you see the problem here?

If prepared why would she need to take out loans?  Where is the hardship?  Seems to me she wasn't prepared and someone dropped a little nugget that she is hoping will save her.  Here's my answer - do the full time - it really isn't that long.

 

[George Wallace]

So, a PRes mbr receives MATA/PATA for 6 months and then transfers to the Reg F - she would have to repay the benefits?  I think not!

That is rather faulty logic.  You are comparing a Reg Force member going from a fulltime salary to a parttime salary to a person going from a parttime salary to a full time salary.  There is no similarity; no comparison.

Let's say that she can use Class A Reserve time to pay back her obligation.  At 1/4 time, do you realize how long she will be compelled to serve?  If she doesn't serve that time, then she will still be obligated to pay back the benefits she earned.

As for paying back payments at a reduced rate, get real.  I have seen Reservists on Class B get no pay due to Clawbacks of overpayments from Tours.  The 'Bean Counters' have no hearts or souls.

 

[krzy8kim]

If prepared why would she need to take out loans?  Where is the hardship?  Seems to me she wasn't prepared and someone dropped a little nugget that she is hoping will save her.  Here's my answer - do the full time - it really isn't that long.

I see what you mean but 1 year isn't really that long but when you want to stay home with the kids until they go to school - it is a long time and then mbr would have to sign a new TOS which would not allow her to stay at home at all, by the time a new contract came up she'd be ready to work full time again.

 

[George Wallace]

I see what you mean but 1 year isn't really that long but when you want to stay home with the kids until they go to school - it is a long time and then mbr would have to sign a new TOS which would not allow her to stay at home at all, by the time a new contract came up she'd be ready to work full time again.

Your story keeps on changing.  Now you say she wants to stay at home until they go to school......This is a good five years. 

Lets get real now.  How many women before her have been in the work force, not just the CF, and had to return to work full time, without the benefits of MATA Leave?  Why didn't her and her signifigant other not plan MATA to cover the first six months, and then PATA to cover the next period? 

This is beginning to sound ...................well you know what.

 

[krzy8kim]

The story didn't change and I didn't fully understand your last.

 

[George Wallace]

The story didn't change and I didn't fully understand your last.

I am sure someone will soon be along to offer you some cheese.