Reservists on Tour - selfish.

[IPC10]

This is spawned by the current discussions about reserves on overseas tours.

Selfishness (Self"ish*ness) n.

1. Meanly close and covetous; one who spends grudgingly; a stingy, parsimonous fellow; a miser.
2. The quality or state of being selfish; meanness in giving or spending; parsimony; stinginess.
3. The quality or state of being selfish; exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others.

My interest is with the third definition above.

Coming from the reserve community I acknowledge the pick and choose aspect of the reserve commitment to overseas deployments.  I echo other poster's ideas on the concept of 'pony-up cowboy' and join the regular force if you want good tours based on events such as the large number of soldiers from the western infantry regiment who refused to sign their second BEs based that they had joined after 9-11, spent three years hearing how the army was overtasked, and then never got an overseas deployment in their short time in.  I fully acknowledge that there is a larger scale plan to the use of reservists in the managed readiness cycle.  I know that there is a reason behind their deployment, which brings me to the definition above.

The army is overtasked.  I am not talking about tours alone here I am talking more about the training system.  Most training institutions have a number of positions that could probably be lumped under the ITCB or ARE (Army Reserve Establishment).  Basically we need reservists to start filling vacant positions within the training establishment in order to relive buzzwords like 'pers op tempo' but basically so we can stop hitting the field force to provide individual augmentation.

One fundamental assumption I will make is that if you take two instructors, ceteris paribus, the one with operational experience will make a better instructor.  It appears to me that one of the reasons we want reservists with op experience is so they can pass those lessons on. 

My fundamental critique of the system is that reservists are selfish.  They all want the gongs that come with overseas deployments.  There is a distinct lack of ethics that compiles the average reservists to 'pony-up' to the training system.

Someone tell me reservists aren't selfish.  Someone tell me that a reservist coming off Op ARCHER will gladly commit his/her next summer or next time off from an employer thinking about the betterment of the army and take a callout at an area training centre or CTC.  Someone tell me that the average reservist who wants a tour isn't doing it for the gong, or the money, or the experience but acknowledges that he/she is a part of the Canadian Armed Forces and has an obligation as defined under the new leadership doctrine to pass that information on to the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole.  There is more to being a professional than going on tours, there are other aspects to the job as well. 

Someone tell me that the reserves are professional.

Someone tell me the reserves aren't selfish.

(PS - I did search and considered adding this to the thread on TF 1-06 Reserve Employment or Reserve A-stan Tour in 2007)

 

[wotan]

  Rather a broad generalization, IMHO.  Are there selfish Reservists?  Certainly.  But there are also selfish people in the Reg F and I believe careerism is far more rampant in the Reg F.  There are also some consummate professionals in the P Res just as they also exist in the Reg F.

  As an RMS CLK that has DAGGED thousands of soldiers for deployments, I can assure you it isn't just the P Res soldiers that are concerned about how much money they will get or how many and which medals they will be awarded.

 

[McG]

What is your proposal?  Reserve contracts for overseas should include a mandatory trg sp period on the back end?  6 months for DAG, work-up, and pre-deployment leave, 6 months overseas, 6 month for reconstitution, post deployment medicals, leave, and then 6 months to work at a trg establishment?

Are you simply trying to say that the trg system should reduce the number of regular force postings by increasing the number of Class B/A positions in the battle schools?

I echo other poster's ideas on the concept of 'pony-up cowboy' and join the regular force if you want good tours based on events such as the large number of soldiers from the western infantry regiment who refused to sign their second BEs based that they had joined after 9-11, spent three years hearing how the army was overtasked, and then never got an overseas deployment in their short time in.

Based on your threshold of selfishness, maybe they should have considered an OT to one of the many occupations that are stretched to thier limits.  The infantry, while still lacking in numbers, are not the limiting factor when determining where our capacity runs out (we run out of engineers, 291ers, and other occupations first). 

The lack of a constructive solution causes me to think you were only out to rant.  Am I wrong?

 

[Neill McKay]

I'd have a hard time describing anyone who works a full day on civvy street and then spends his evening at the armouries, or someone who uses his "vacations" for military training, as selfish.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Someone tell me the reserves aren't selfish.

Sure.
I know a reservist who spent some of his HLTA, taken over the christmas hollidays, volenteering with a homeless shelter feeding less fortinuate people instead of drinking his face off.
Quit a job making close to $23 an hour to go away for training with the reserves.
Doesn't know exactly how much money he makes with the army. Doesn't care.  He has enough money in his bank to eat and pay his bills.
Donates money to shriners, tsunami relief fund etc..  Only $100 compared to a hollywood actor donating $50'000 but then again they make 14 MILLION per movie.
Applied to go overseas to do his part, gain operational experience and generally try to help people \, doesn't give a shit about how much money he makes.

Yes there are selfish soldiers in the reserves who only give a shit about money. They want all the good taskings with the least amount of responsibility. 50% of the blame belongs to the reservists and 50% to the reserve structure that puts up with these guys.

There are just as many regular force privates who pray to the all mighty dollar to pay for their 10 foot wide screen TVs, Xboxs and go fast cars and cry over reservists getting positions on tour as there are reservists who blow their money on drinking etc.. etc.. and go begging to the BOR that they need pay advances (and who cry that they aren't getting good positions with their counterparts in the regular force infantry).

There are a lot of guys like you described in the reserves but you can't paint them all with that brush.
One needs simply look at the respected senior members of this board who transfered from the reserves to the regular force.  Were they only motivated by greed?
I think not.

 

[dutchie]

Hey IPC10, on your next block of leave, why don't you go work at Starbucks for half your normal wage? On weekends, why don't you get a job delivering pizzas? And then when some arsehole who's worked full-time there for the last 5 years tell you your selfish because you can't work Mondays, you can tell him to piss off.

Piss off.

 

[Armymedic]

Someone tell me that the average reservist who wants a tour isn't doing it for the gong, or the money, or the experience 

Sorry I can't do that..

But I also can't tell you that every Regular Force "professional" soldier is going on tour for the betterment of the CF and is not doing it just for the gong, or the money, or the experience.

 

[KevinB]

Yes but at least the system squeezes every last drop of blood from our souls

 

[dutchie]

Yes but at least the system squeezes every last drop of blood from our souls

The Reserves:

Underutilized? Yes. Lazy/selfish? Nope.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

this is what  i think of the reserve bashing from both sides. I was a reserve on a long term class B A contract. 5 years of it. so i know what I am speaking of i worked along side reg force soldiers everyday of it.
B A contracts can be a trap, but they are very educational about how the real army is and you get the chance for the education at a reduced level pay and benefits but you agreed to that  up front and accept it for what it is.

reserves soldiers at all levels and ranks  join because they want to for various reasons:
a) money for school, second income, pay for education ( some would do it for no money, or for very bad pay  like they did in the 60s, 70s)
b) join because they are interested in serving their country  in  a small way  or it is a hobby
c) the chance to do something else outside of normal working hours that not everyone else gets to do in their spare time. ( where else can you  operate large machines like tanks, apc, flyaircraft, jump from planes, fire various small arms, fire larger weapons systems, get some travel and get paid for it and get to go home after the weekend)
d) join to check it out before going for a full time career in the forces
e) a few join to wear a uniform , dogtags  to get girls or guys, ( not a great reason but we know it happens)
f) because they want to feel they  belong to something bigger then life
all valid reasons to join the res forces.

as for a res force member being selfish
here are some of the ways they are selfish if you want to call it being selfish

1) they give up time out of a normal life to learn, teach and pass on these skills to new members
2) they  give weekends, holidays to train, to parade at special events
3) they give up time with their family  because they  know the only way  to get the chance to do some serious training is to take 2 weeks off in the summer and go on the area exercise ( might be the only  2 weeks vacation they get that  year, give it up for non family  time very selfish if you are one of the family memebers looking at dad going away  )
4) the res force member wanting a course over the summer for the non student, has to give up his or her vaccation , or see if the company  they  work for will give them time off without pay. if they get the time off without pay  they  have to work for less money and benefits then they get at the full time job.
5) res force training periods relie on a lot of pretend things, like pretend ememy soldiers ( hard to find troops to play  the ememy never enough to man training slots let a lone enough to play ememy  force  in a realistic manner ) have to pretend a truck is ememy tank , was on ex where a cj  jeep  with lights flashing was a t 72, lights off it was t 60,  mlvw was large troop lift aircraft,  bullets were called  budget cuts are you yelled as you were firing. But no one complained they got training on the basic skills
6) going on training with reg force unit and have to hear how bad we are because we do not have the training of the guy who just came off a 6 month course in the reg force.

at the upper levels of some res units when on joint training you see officers and sn ncos shadowing their reg force counter part learning as much as they can about the real full time job  which is very  good training. does have its draw backs and i am sure it is a pain in the *** for the reg force sgt major to have the res sgt major following him around making notes and asking question but that  is part of the training.


now look at the other side of the coin
reg force side
reasons to join

1)  money, benefits, education, and a it is a career not apart time job
2) join to serve your country,
3) family  business so to speak

training you get a lot of it and you expect a lot from your training
you do not have to take time off and lose pay, benefits and have to worry  if you can afford the time off to take the training, your pay might increase while your on training. thru TD allowances, travel home claims,
your family  knows that  it is your first job and they  expect you to be gone at a minutes notice, they all dread that  call phone call in the middle of the night and you are off out the door just to come back because it was training ex, but it might be real next time

you get to complain and moan about how bad the training is of those res force troops is when they come to visit the unit and go for real army  training.
you get to laugh at the dress uniforms they  wear , kilts,  funny  hats,  and tell them you would not be caught dead in one of those.

Before you start to complain and bash them for what  they are , see how you can fix it for them.

You are the trainers, the lack of training and knowledge they come home with and take back to the units falls back on you and the training staff.

Next time you see the young res force trooper doing something not quite the right way, stop and take a second to show how it should be done.
Sometimes you might be shocked and learn something from them. I know of a few cases if you looked at the res force guy  you would think he was not very  bright. ( one case he was a very  old CPL, admin clerk , turns out he was a retired bristh army SGT Major who met a Canadian lady  and married her and moved to Canada, missed the army  life, but no  Engineer unit near him so he joined the SVC BN, he had the best uniforms and boots on parades in meaford that year. The medic might be a full time EMS guy who works in large city answering gunshots and stabbing calls everyday.you the army medic might learn soemthing from him. The Sgt Major of the unit might be big city  cop and the sniper on the swat team.  You do not know the backgrounds of some of these res force troops. The guy  digging the trench beside you might be a highschool sudent and quarterback or the waterboy for all you know). they  come to training because they want to give and take something back.

Being a res force soldier is about being selfish if you want to see it that  way. Some might want the attention that  the uniform brings, might want the chance to pick and coose tours they want to go on. Mostly  it is selfish to their families, and careers back in the real world for them.

No reg force soldier has to worry that  his pay  will be cut back when he leaves for a tour, or training. On a tour pay  usually  increases with various allowances depending on the tour and how long the tour will last.

No reg force soldier has to give up his or her summer vaccation to go on a  training exercise to learn their job, apply  what  they learned in  training classes.

No reg force soldier has to worry  that  his SGT or OC will not let him have the time off for a training or classes

I had friends on both sides of the coin, reg force and res force who wanted to go on tours.

both wanted the adventure, wanted the extra money, the medals, and the chance to say  i was there when all heck broke loose.

i know i wanted a tour, never got one

i wanted it for the adventure, did not care about the money, I wanted the chnace to travel and say  I was a part of something bigger and more important them me. guess i was selfish too.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The reserves selfish, eh?  I've noticed that when situations and budgets change, the door can slam shut pretty hard and fast on the backsides of those selfish reservists who were foolish enough to commit to full-time engagement.  Exigencies of the service and exigencies of the individual.  Don't pretend either should not exist.

 

[Sig_Des]

I guess these should be added in the dictionary under the heading "selfish":

1. Giving of ones personal time on evenings and weekends for military service instead of spending it at home with the family after working a full-time civillian job

2. Instead of going to the beach, cottage, or just staying at home during the summer vacation, going to various bases across the country, far from home, for military training

3. Taking time off work (sometimes a higher paying vocation than the CF) to participate in Excersizes, taskings, and training

4. Giving up a civillian job (also sometimes a higher paying vocation than the CF) to go on summer course, because said employer wouldn't give you the time off.

 

[IPC10]

Much to the determent to myself it is obvious that I did not make the source of my compliant perfectly clear.  I am not saying that reservists should not go on tour.  Nor am I saying that there isn't a percentage of people in the regular force who are not selfish - I even state in my opening that a bunch of soldiers did not sign their 2nd BE which by my own definition can only be regarded as selfish.

I made the post based on an assumption that the majority of the people from the reserves on this thing were at a rank level that I might be able to make them think.  There is an incredible benefit on the armoury floors to having people with tours - I am thinking in terms of both informal training and retention.  What I am suggesting is that for anyone above the rank of Cpl there is an obligation to train not only within your Regt but the Army as a whole.

The source of my bitterness is the perception of the line up of people to go on tours compared to the pain behind postings/taskings to training institutions.  Bottom line is that as much as the regs complain about postings to training establishments they have to go at the end of the day - not so much in the reserve world.

I would invite you all to read the pam entitled "Canada's Army" (B-GL-300-000-FP-000)  From there I direct your attention to the following quotes:

"Attributes of Professionalism
Expertise. This is reflected in the military professional's
extensive and authoritative knowledge in the field of armed
conflict, including what constitutes appropriate military
actions during peace and war. It encompasses leadership
and management skills required for planning, preparing and
executing complex military operations, as well as sound
understanding of the capabilities of personnel, weapons,
and equipment. Expertise is acquired through formal
education, self study, training, and experience."

And

"Duty. Duty is manifested in responsibility and devotion to
Canada; loyalty to superiors, peers and subordinates alike;
courage, resolve and competence in the execution of tasks;
pursuit of professional knowledge and self-development;
use of initiative; application of judgement, intellect and
decisiveness; and subordination of self to mission at all
times. Duty for leaders additionally entails being aware
of and tending to the needs of subordinates."

And the underlying issue of my original post:

"In peacetime, it must be carefully managed to ensure that it does
not assume greater importance than the corporate wellbeing
of the army as a whole, nor unduly favour or prejudice
individuals in lieu of merit."



If you are going to read one sentence from this post read this one:  There are a million and one things wrong with the system.  This is one area where people in this audience might be able to effect change based on their conduct.  Is there any discussions within the reserves or a feeling of an obligation beyond their home unit to the system as a whole?

(PS - Please note that I spent eight years of my life as a reserve NCO, doing my share of Class B call-outs but avoiding Cypress and the Golan.  I know all about the pain of making ends meet while going to school holding down a regular job in addition to my reserve commitment.  Giving up reading weeks to go on concentrations or superbowl weekends spent in Wainwright or the Sarcee Trg Area.  If anyone would like to discuss what I personally do on my time off with respect to self study and organizations such as the Special Olympics please send me a PM and I would be more than happy to chat.)

 

[54/102 CEF]

DND is poorly led by the government - poorly funded and this trickles down to the troops on the Armoury Floor in unmet expectations.

I think the all unit leadership has to keep in mind that the soldier sees a lot of what our neighbours do with vastly scaled up resources and thinks why not here?

It has to be drilled into the reservists head that they are

Part time soldiers - they are far down the line for call-up as the governments foreign policy is basically tied to the number of regular troops available for self sustaining tasks. The Canadains have not tended to get into open ended commitments that are far beyond a steady state army perspective as in Iraq or Afghanistan.

That said - there is logically fewer slots avail for the part time troops than the full time troops. And as far as I know its  a regionally tasked out manning program that when it gets to the unit is an indiv competition

As in previous years - you can get on a tour or a course or a tasking but have to keep in mind the top soldiers wil get preference.

Hence the units leadership have to emphasize the infectious spirit of competition at the unit level which will put the spotlight on you and open up doors for tours and taskings.

The Army cannot afford to send anyone anywhere - like you`d get on a civvy bus - you have to fight your way on.

Not wanting to fight for it is the selfish part.

 

[Sig_Des]

Is there any discussions within the reserves or a feeling of an obligation beyond their home unit to the system as a whole?

Absolutely. Unit pride is as prevalent in the Reserves as it is in the Reg Force, but we are all members of the Canadian Forces as a whole.

Everyone has their own reasons to go on training, taskings or tour.

From my own unit, we have a couple of people on tour, but we also have a larger number of people on taskings with reg force units across Canada at any given time.

The idea you seemed to be putting across of the reservist grabbing for tours like kids for candy bars. But IMHO, it should be kept in mind that we ALL serve our country, for one reason or another

 

[dutchie]

A mostly well-thought out post, with the exception of this:

I made the post based on an assumption that the majority of the people from the reserves on this thing were at a rank level that I might be able to make them think. 

Well, smartguy, what kind of reaction did you expect when you post this:

My fundamental critique of the system is that reservists are selfish.   They all want the gongs that come with overseas deployments.   There is a distinct lack of ethics that compiles the average reservists to 'pony-up' to the training system.

Someone tell me reservists aren't selfish.......Someone tell me that the reserves are professional. Someone tell me the reserves aren't selfish.

Call me slefish and I get my back up. Guess I'm funny that way.

 

[IPC10]

I guess these should be added in the dictionary under the heading "selfish":

1. Giving of ones personal time on evenings and weekends for military service instead of spending it at home with the family after working a full-time civilian job

2. Instead of going to the beach, cottage, or just staying at home during the summer vacation, going to various bases across the country, far from home, for military training

3. Taking time off work (sometimes a higher paying vocation than the CF) to participate in Excersizes, taskings, and training

4. Giving up a civilian job (also sometimes a higher paying vocation than the CF) to go on summer course, because said employer wouldn't give you the time off.

Oh I was never arguing the regular devotion you HAVE to have in the militia.  I would add to that the reserve joy behind having a civ job where the employer values you enough that a week after telling him you would not be working the summer your summer long dream task to Vernon falls through and that you call him on Friday from Vernon saying "Can I work this summer?" and by Monday you are back selling bikes.

I wasn't arguing the regular devotion you have to have to be in the militia.  We just ran a course here for the reserves where one of the pure-mil col reg force guys was slamming the low standard within the reserves to which I pointed out that in addition to your points above that all of our reserve candidates were also willingly going on a course where they all (by their own admission) were clueless about how to actually do things properly but still showed up and charged ahead.  I mean think about it, going to something where you know you have no clue but still going on top of all of the points above.

Needless this wasn't what I was getting at in my original post.

 

[Steel Badger]

Stuff the Gong..........I went for the experience......

 

[Jarnhamar]

Bottom line is that as much as the regs complain about postings to training establishments they have to go at the end of the day â “ not so much in the reserve world.

This isn't something new though.
This is how the regular force/reserve force IS set up.  It's the whole theorybehind the reserves.

So your bitter because regular force members are forced to do their job and reserves (a voluntary entity) have  to volenteer for it?

I'm not picking a fight here i just don't understand your intention.  Your initial post sounded like a big slam against the reserves. You probably didn't intend it as such but you can't help peoples reaction to how you came across.

 

[X Royal]

As someone who has spent time in both the regs & reserves I think the original post in this thread is complete BS. Just an other attempt to divide.
Do the reserves get the same training as the regs. NO.
Do they want it. Mostly Yes.
Are the reserves as dedicated as the regs. Quite often More/ Sometimes Less.
Not often do regs. give up their annual leave or weekends/days off.(Yes reserves paid but loss of personal/family time)
Is anyone selfish when they serve their Country. If with honour NO.
If the goverment ever decides to protect the reservists jobs (simular to the US) many more reservists would be avalible for both tours & training positions.