Retention Issues

[Lav968]

Okay everyone, ROE: 
I am requesting that this to be a civil discussion and for some productive suggestions to be made.  What I am envisioning here is I will post what I see as the problems and I would love for your replies to be proactive suggestions that hopefully some of our leaders that read these boards can induct.

I do understand that Army transformation and recruiting are supposed to fix the numbers in the combat arms (this is quite obviously not Engineer specific) but what do we do in the mean time?  How do we keep our trained pers - both young and old? 

First, Demographics.  Because of the recruiting gap in the 90's and the mass recruitment in the early to mid 80's (YTEP, etc) we have a huge problem with guys serving their 20 and pulling pin.  Very understandable of course but these are our senior leaders (officers and NCOs) and we would be wise to do our damndest to retain these assets.  How do you go about asking someone who has already given so much of their lives to stay and do more?  Are blanket IPS contracts the answer as the Air Force did a few years ago (500 series trades atleast)?  Is it enough?  Signing bonuses attached to an IPS?

Second, Why are so many young guys pulling pin?  I can understand that some guys will get out after their first BE but so many are choosing the door out than their second BE or as some have been offerred, their IE.  Guys are joining up, basic isn't hard as we all know, PATS and PARS is necessary but a morale drain as you are in limbo, doing their 3's, maybe getting a tour or just a whack of ex's and then they're out.  We put a lot of money into training these guys and they get out and we are screwed.  What is causing these guys to leave?  Most of the ones I have spoken to say morale.  I could start a whole new thread on what is wrong there but I won't.  I tend to think that Op tempo and courses (or lack of) are a large part of it too but that is my speculation only.

Lastly, How do we keep guys that are well qualified but in the 5-15 year mark from going to civvy life?  This is where I see the largest problem as these are the guys who are being groomed for leadership but are just not willing to sacrifice any more and civvy street as an easier alternative (you could apply remusters to this as well).  You can here the grumblings of the disgruntled Cpl-Sgt in any regiment or battalion that I have been in but recently it has seemed to much to bear for far too many soldiers.  Does anyone here the grumblings anymore I wonder?  Everything I hear is actionable in my eyes.  Simple things like 1600 Friday afternoons, the lack of Strong Contender, always the same people on ex and the same people in garrison, officer accountability...you have all heard the same things as me.  I am not in a position to action these things or I would (or try atleast!) but only to suggest what I feel are simple morale issues that do not get actioned.

I have droned on enough but look forward to your replies and suggestions.  Chimo!

 

[reccecrewman]

Wow!  I've always been a bit envious of the Engineers in the sense that they get to do alot of cool hardcore training and have courses that I could never get (No need for a combat diver in my world) but you're actually asking for 1600 Fridays? As in......... you work longer than that on a Friday? Wow! Our regular Friday is usually hangar clean-up commences at 1230 after lunch, done by 1330 or so, then we wait on our SSM to walk through the hangar and give it the good to go, have our O Group and hopefully out the door around 1430-1500.  It is a nicety of course, and yes, they could make us stay longer, but our leaderships pretty good that way.  Work hard, play hard.

Regards

PS - Even with this luxury however, we still have guys bit@*ing and moaning and have plenty of releases and OT's.  Nobody's ever happy, even when they have it pretty damn good. Sheesh.

 

[Lav968]

No no.  We stay until atleast 1600.  Or atleast my Tp does.  We do our clean up in the morning and sit there all afternoon.  SSM usually walks thru 1445 or 1500.  Then we get the mandatory no drinking and driving speech and then we are out of there about 1600 or better.  I am just saying that instead of sitting around (where guys have nothing better to do than b#$ch) let the troops go or atleast split the crew in half unless something comes up.  Can you believe we had a Sgt come down and actually say, "If I have to stay and be miserable then so do you."  Things like that are nothing but a morale killer.  What happenned to the days of "Got nothin to do?  Don't do it here."

Theres my little Friday rant, Haha!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

No no.  We stay until atleast 1600.  Or atleast my Tp does.  We do our clean up in the morning and sit there all afternoon.  SSM usually walks thru 1445 or 1500.  Then we get the mandatory no drinking and driving speech and then we are out of there about 1600 or better.  I am just saying that instead of sitting around (where guys have nothing better to do than b#$ch) let the troops go or atleast split the crew in half unless something comes up.  Can you believe we had a Sgt come down and actually say, "If I have to stay and be miserable then so do you."  Things like that are nothing but a morale killer.  What happenned to the days of "Got nothin to do?  Don't do it here."

Theres my little Friday rant, Haha!

I don't have anything to directly contribute to a discussion of regular force engineers, but I can attest to the morale issue of doing nothing.  I worked in the orderly room of my reserve unit, and for a period of two years, instead of receiving any training or tasks, I would come in, do PA on files, and then sit for 2 or 3 hours on Wed night.  The Sergeant i/c OR had the same attitude.  "Don't just sit there, look busy!"  My attitude was - give me something to do - I don't want to look busy, I want to BE busy. It's why I joined up.  Minor tasks ok, training of some kind would have been better - a million functions in that office to perform, and me with two university degrees wasn't considered worthy of doing any of them.  Things have improved dramatically for me since then, luckily.

The trick is finding imaginative NCOs and officers with the inclination (and the time!) to look out for the welfare of the troops.  In your case, an early dismissal would sound appropriate.  Then again (don't mean to focus on this specific issue since I feel your post was much broader, but since we've gotten to this point...) could junior ranks not take it upon themselves to get up a game of floor hockey or some kind of minor trg opportunity or admin or something?  Civvie-side, lots of people still put in full five day workweeks so an early dismissal isn't exactly an entitlement either.

 

[geo]

one commentary about those NCOs going out after their 20, 25 or 30; if they are fit, then they should be offered "school" positions to help teach the new ones while the current (5-15yrs) batch of NCOs take care of business with the field troops... Have seen too much experience going out the door without anything prepared to fill the gap.
The knowledge they have in their noggin is worth it's weight in gold - IPS, signing bonuses, performance bonuses and enhanced health care are all services that could motivate.

 

[reccecrewman]

Or let them do what they want......... They've given so much, if they were asked what they wanted, then given it, they would most likely stay.  I know of a Sgt in my Unit - knowledgeable, strict but very fair and Troops who have served under him have respect for him. (A Sgt. you'd think they'd want to keep around)  His 20 is up in a year or so and he said to me he'd re-sign IF he had a guarentee he'd remain in Pet.  Doesn't care in what capacity, wherever the Regiment wants to put him, he'll be happy, but he doesn't want to be posted again.  He's done his postings to the School and numerous taskings, and just wants to stay in the Regiment.  But if he can't get that guarentee (And he probably won't) no problem, he's gone.  A relatively painless way to retain some experienced NCO's I think.

 

[043]

one commentary about those NCOs going out after their 20, 25 or 30; if they are fit, then they should be offered "school" positions to help teach the new ones while the current (5-15yrs) batch of NCOs take care of business with the field troops... Have seen too much experience going out the door without anything prepared to fill the gap.
The knowledge they have in their noggin is worth it's weight in gold - IPS, signing bonuses, performance bonuses and enhanced health care are all services that could motivate.

I agree with you on the school postings because what is happening here now is that people come to the school as Sgt's or Mcpl's, get promoted to Sgt or WO and remain in the school as SME's and really are lacking any actual Tp WO , Tp Recce experience yet are expected to train leaders, recce sgt's and Tp WO's.

Personally, I think that the Corps is too soft on individuals at times. If the CM tells so and so that they are posted, they should be posted. No piss moaning about my son is in his last year of highschool, etc..........sorry, if you don't want to move then you know what do but you are posted next APS.

 

[kj_gully]

How about ENCOURAGING remuster, VS discouraging it. Keeping a trained person in the CF is better than training 2 more, the one the Engineers need, and the one the other trade needs. If the system functioned as originally designed, that is, come do 4 years in combat arms, then get a priority spot for the remuster of your choice ( is that Combat arms remuster plan still availabe?) in fact, a goodly portion should be strongly encouraged to remuster, once their knees or attitude no longer suit walking for miles in the mud in the dark. Combat Arms soldiers are pretty easy to please, really, and any job away from the pointy end will be a cakewalk. If living in the an Armoutry on a cot is luxury on ex, imagine living in a Hotel! recyling the pte cpls, while providing opportunity for the Cadre of NCO's to progress, is healthy. Enthusiasm with a shovel trumps experience with a shovel, or at least equals it.

 

[Sapper6]

Okay everyone, ROE: 
I am requesting that this to be a civil discussion and for some productive suggestions to be made. 

Sounds good.  This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. 

First, Demographics.  Because of the recruiting gap in the 90's and the mass recruitment in the early to mid 80's (YTEP, etc) we have a huge problem with guys serving their 20 and pulling pin.  Very understandable of course but these are our senior leaders (officers and NCOs) and we would be wise to do our damndest to retain these assets.  How do you go about asking someone who has already given so much of their lives to stay and do more?  Are blanket IPS contracts the answer as the Air Force did a few years ago (500 series trades atleast)?  Is it enough?  Signing bonuses attached to an IPS?

Not an easy solution as everyone is different.  However, my suggestion would be signing bonuses.  The British Forces do this and I could never understand why the CF has not looked at the same idea.  It has also bewildered me that because our pension is so good (compared to private industry) that we are actually enticing our senior people to leave.  Now, I'm not saying we should reduce our pension benefits.  On the contrary, we should be looking at making them even better if a member were to "sign on" for another 'term of service'. [As an aside, Terms of Service (TOS) are not "contracts" as members are free to voluntarily release whenever they want (with a six month warning). The TOS offer is a commitment from the government that the member has employment to the end of the specified term (ie. VIE, IE25 or IPS).  Of course, you can be released administratively if you don't hold up your end (ie. universality of service, failure of C&P, etc.)

Second, Why are so many young guys pulling pin?  I can understand that some guys will get out after their first BE but so many are choosing the door out than their second BE or as some have been offerred, their IE.  Guys are joining up, basic isn't hard as we all know, PATS and PARS is necessary but a morale drain as you are in limbo, doing their 3's, maybe getting a tour or just a whack of ex's and then they're out.  We put a lot of money into training these guys and they get out and we are screwed.  What is causing these guys to leave?  Most of the ones I have spoken to say morale.  I could start a whole new thread on what is wrong there but I won't.  I tend to think that Op tempo and courses (or lack of) are a large part of it too but that is my speculation only.

Morale?  That is always a touchy issue.  What is morale in a unit?  Is it constantly changing?  Is it a popularity contest? [I'm beginning to sound like 2023 here.]  Case Study - Let's call him "Chewy" - a Cpl in the Cbt Engrs.  So I was talking to Chewy before Christmas and asked him how things were going?  He said he had his VOT in to Postal Clerk [Gully addresses OTs above and I agree with him].  Stunned, I asked was it because the op tempo was high and he was feeling burnt out?  His answer was "No.  I can't get enough op tours!"  [Aside - still scratching my head at the Postal Clerk thing?].  A walk down the hallway and I talked to another Cpl who used to be in my Sqn and he said he was happy that he wasn't going back to Afghanistan on TF 1-06.  He could use the break.

So, what's the answer?  I am a definite believer that no officer or soldier should be going on any op tour with a frequency of less than 4 yrs.  My pigeon math tells me that within 4 yrs a Cpl should be able to get his PLQ done or a Sgt get his Sect Comd course completed without undue hardship on the family.  Of course, we need the troops to do this.  Therefore, I go back to my earlier recommendation (in another thread) that Canada should only be committing to the first line of operations and forget about getting the second line of operations on high readiness on the Managed Readiness Plan.

Lastly, How do we keep guys that are well qualified but in the 5-15 year mark from going to civvy life?  This is where I see the largest problem as these are the guys who are being groomed for leadership but are just not willing to sacrifice any more and civvy street as an easier alternative (you could apply remusters to this as well).  You can here the grumblings of the disgruntled Cpl-Sgt in any regiment or battalion that I have been in but recently it has seemed to much to bear for far too many soldiers.  Does anyone here the grumblings anymore I wonder?  Everything I hear is actionable in my eyes.  Simple things like 1600 Friday afternoons, the lack of Strong Contender, always the same people on ex and the same people in garrison, officer accountability...you have all heard the same things as me.  I am not in a position to action these things or I would (or try atleast!) but only to suggest what I feel are simple morale issues that do not get actioned.

I am listening.  So are the Commanding Officers.  In my opinion though, the troops are generally happier if they are busy.  By busy, I mean engaged in well planned training sessions or proper maintenance of vehs and kit (I'm not talking about sweeping Tp Stores).  Sure, there will always be bit@#&*% about why other units are letting their soldiers go home at 1430 hrs.  But, I will say that there is always something a professional soldier can be working on.  To this I hold the leadership accountable.

Am I an advocate for setting up an IEDD scenario on a Friday afternoon just for the heck of it?  Well, if it is planned out and part of a Tp's professional development for the junior leadership to show their stuff in a garrison setting?  Yes, I'm all for it.  However, I do agree that there are times to "down tools" and go home.  I agree that sitting in Tp's stores and spinning around on some old office chairs (seen it) moaning about how much life sucks is a waste of time.  However, one has to ask oneself, has the CO's intent been met?  What I don't agree with is the "expectation" that quitting time should always be at 1430 hrs regardless of how shi$$% the vehicles are.

As for the Sgt coming down and saying something like "If I have to be miserable, then so do you.."  That is poor leadership.  As an officer I would want to hear about something like that during a Tp Comd's hour.

Finally, I would like to hear more about officer accountability being a contributor to poor morale.  You know, just for heck of it. 

S6  :warstory:

 

[043]

So, what's the answer?  I am a definite believer that no officer or soldier should be going on any op tour with a frequency of less than 4 yrs.  My pigeon math tells me that within 4 yrs a Cpl should be able to get his PLQ done or a Sgt get his Sect Comd course completed without undue hardship on the family.  Of course, we need the troops to do this.  Therefore, I go back to my earlier recommendation (in another thread) that Canada should only be committing to the first line of operations and forget about getting the second line of operations on high readiness on the Managed Readiness Plan.

Sapper 6.....I think you are being very ambitous about 4 years between op tours. As you know, the higher up in rank an NCO gets, the harder on him and his family it gets. For example, 6 - 9 months trg prior to a tour, the 6 month tour, a month of leave, and with any luck, he will be headed to Gagetown on his Recce Ops or Tp WO's crse. After that , he can expect to come back and fill any number of CFTPO taskngs required. I don't like it any better than you do, but I have lived it and in the shoes I am wearing now, I would much rather be back in the unit working 20 hour days, stuffing 10lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag, than working 8-4 in the school. I don't say that to slam anyone but I say it with pride. As for my earlier comments about the letter that was written, I stand by them. We, as Engineers are the only Combat Arms solders who get to do our jobs for real when we deploy overseas so to hear someone complain about Op Tempo drives me nuts.

Chimo!

 

[Sapper6]

Sapper 6.....I think you are being very ambitous about 4 years between op tours. As you know, the higher up in rank an NCO gets, the harder on him and his family it gets. For example, 6 - 9 months trg prior to a tour, the 6 month tour, a month of leave, and with any luck, he will be headed to Gagetown on his Recce Ops or Tp WO's crse. After that , he can expect to come back and fill any number of CFTPO taskngs required. I don't like it any better than you do, but I have lived it and in the shoes I am wearing now, I would much rather be back in the unit working 20 hour days, stuffing 10lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag, than working 8-4 in the school. I don't say that to slam anyone but I say it with pride. As for my earlier comments about the letter that was written, I stand by them. We, as Engineers are the only Combat Arms solders who get to do our jobs for real when we deploy overseas so to hear someone complain about Op Tempo drives me nuts. Chimo!

2023,

Man, where can we find 2500 x Cbt Engrs like you?  Break glass and release in time of war!  ;D

Seriously, I fundamentally agree with you.  However, you would have to agree that your view on service does not line up with many of your subordinates that work in the Army of Today, let alone the Army of Tomorrow.  If everyone thought like you, there would be no discussion.  Unfortunately, retention is an issue.  It is also different for Cpls getting out after their 2nd BE (now the VIE) and the Sgt/WO getting out after his IE.

So, to counter your point - I stick with my 4 yr cycle.  With the caveat that we only conduct "one line of operations" for the forseeable future. We need to wait until Recruiting catches up before embarking on having two High Readines Battle Groups (from two different brigades).  One is enough for now.

Finally, your comments about not being satisfied working at the school are interesting.  In theory, this is where a Sr NCO such as yourself should be able to "re-charge" at the same time as pass on current operational knowledge to the next generation of Sprs, Sect Comds, Tp WOs and young officers.

Like I said, you don't fit the model.  Hopefully, the system can get you back into the fight soon.

Chimo!

S6

 

[kj_gully]

As for the Sgt coming down and saying something like "If I have to be miserable, then so do you.."  That is poor leadership.  As an officer I would want to hear about something like that during a Tp Comd's hour.

...@1600 on friday right after the no drinkin an drivin speech

 

[SprCForr]

Talk about a big shift. It wasn't too far in the past when the school was something to be avoided if at all possible. If you did, you tried to get away as quick as possible. Harry Poile was a perfect example.  Attitude/POV like 2023's were the average. NCO's didn't want to be posted to SME, they had to be posted there.

In the past, I'd run across the occasional troop who didn't like being in the field. They couldn't grasp the sense of freedom from the mundane chickens*** that garrison brought or the sense of accomplishment from being able to properly practice your job. The field was to be avoided because it was hard, uncomfortable and "outside" all the time. Being gone from the machine for a while now I'll ask: Is the "fun" gone from being in the field, has this shift contributed to the problem?

 

[Sapper6]

...@1600 on friday right after the no drinkin an drivin speech

Sure, Friday at 1600 hrs was always the time I had my Tp Comd's hours...

Talk about a big shift. It wasn't too far in the past when the school was something to be avoided if at all possible. If you did, you tried to get away as quick as possible. Harry Poile was a perfect example.  Attitude/POV like 2023's were the average. NCO's didn't want to be posted to SME, they had to be posted there.

In the past, I'd run across the occasional troop who didn't like being in the field. They couldn't grasp the sense of freedom from the mundane chickens*** that garrison brought or the sense of accomplishment from being able to properly practice your job. The field was to be avoided because it was hard, uncomfortable and "outside" all the time. Being gone from the machine for a while now I'll ask: Is the "fun" gone from being in the field, has this shift contributed to the problem?

I don't think CFSME is any more alluring now for the "warriors" that are out there than it was 10-15 yrs ago (I remember CWO Poile FWIW)).  However, I agree with 2023 that soldiers/NCOs/officers should go there when told.  Especially those that have recent op experience.  We need those guys in the School to ensure training is relevant to the conditions that exist today (ie.  Kandahar, Afghanistan).  Further, NCOs/officers need to leave the School as soon as they are promoted so that they can go back to a unit and 'get back into the fight'.

As far as the CFSME being a 'break', I can't say for sure as I have never been posted there.  However, I have heard from both peers and subordinates alike that just having a schedule that is pretty much set (ie. knowing that you are instructing on courses 8-10 months out) is a 'break' in itself from the op tempo of a unit.  As far as guys never leaving CFSME, I agree that is a problem.  Subject to amount of cost moves the career manager gets, I would say that a 1/4 of the School staff should rotate out each year.  Don't think we are close to that.

S6  :warstory:

 

[Kat Stevens]

Well, Schmeffo, you and I did our 3's and 5's around the same time, +/-.  Most of the instructors I had (not all)  would rather have been ANYWHERE else than Canadian Forces School of Monstrous Errors.  If an NCO is worth his poop, he should go to the school kicking and screaming.  The reason this is an old saying, is because it's true:  "Those who can, do.Those who can't, teach."  Following up to 2023's point, NOTHING, from a lifer Cpls POV, sucked harder than getting a guy back in the Regiment after 5-6 years and two promotions in the Centre of Excrement.  Just as the school hates to hear "that's not how we do it in the Regiment",  it's even worse to hear "that's not the school way"  when you're up to your rectum in carnivorous reptiles.... ;D

 

[SprCForr]

[quote author=Sapper6] ...I don't think CFSME is any more alluring now for the "warriors" that are out there than it was 10-15 yrs ago (I remember CWO Poile FWIW)... Especially those that have recent op experience.  We need those guys in the School to ensure training is relevant to the conditions that exist today (ie.  Kandahar, Afghanistan)...[/quote]

I think were narrowing down one of the big problems with the School. It was my experience that while posted to SME, the requirement to blindly conform was a major constriction. The operational experience that was earned by an NCO was in fact a hinderence. If it wasn't in the PAM or doctrinally approved then there was no way in hell it was going to be passed on to the troops. The school was not responsive to the changing reality of operations and any attempt to pass on this knowledge was sure to earn disapproval, censure or a career damaging PER. It sounds like it hasn't changed much. For example look at the methods used by the Regiments to clear mined area's. Is an alternate method to the WWII deliberate silent breach taught? One that is more suitable to UN or the current op in 'stan? How long did the school take to adopt that operational expereince. Too long would be my guess. It sounds like we've still got NCO's with a butt full of smarts bashing their heads into that same wall of ignorance. That is a major discouragement. Having been gone for a while now, is the School or the "system" if you will more adaptable? Are they responding quicker to changes? I'm interested to hear what 2023 (and the rest of that era) have got to say, since they've seen it both pre and post change as well as receiving the current "product" from the school.

...Further, NCOs/officers need to leave the School as soon as they are promoted so that they can go back to a unit and 'get back into the fight'...

I agree. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you are posted to the School you should be promoted (barring a complete stomping of ones reproductive appendage) before returning to a unit. It may help to prevent it from becoming or remaining a dumping ground. The unit could send a good leader and get one back promoted and ready to tackle the next level.

...However, I agree with 2023 that soldiers/NCOs/officers should go there when told...

No question.

 

[cbt clk]

Engineers give everything in blood sweat and tears. But you can only give so much.  I've heard the same thing from every single engineer who wants to release or is releasing, the exact same thing!! "I'm tired of being treated like sh_t!!!"
Not Op tempo, not PT standards, not a posting.
They are tired of being treated like a piece of garbage.

If the people who could make changes only knew how their troops really felt they would be surprised. Retention rates could change, but some radical changes of thought processes would have to be made. Most dedicated Engineers believe in the Corps and would love to stay in but feel they have no choice but to release.

Engineers stop treating your troops like they are disposable, they aren't!!

 

[043]

How are Enginner troops treated like they are disposable??

 

[043]

Engineers give everything in blood sweat and tears. But you can only give so much.  I've heard the same thing from every single engineer who wants to release or is releasing, the exact same thing!! "I'm tired of being treated like sh_t!!!"
Not Op tempo, not PT standards, not a posting.
They are tired of being treated like a piece of garbage.

If the people who could make changes only knew how their troops really felt they would be surprised. Retention rates could change, but some radical changes of thought processes would have to be made. Most dedicated Engineers believe in the Corps and would love to stay in but feel they have no choice but to release.

Engineers stop treating your troops like they are disposable, they aren't!!

So, I am here waiting...........do you actually have anything to back up your comments???

 

[cbt clk]

In my vast experience and leadership experience (HAHA, I do have a little)....

Anyway, I know a dedicated Sapper who would give all and does. But unfortunately feels like he has to choose between his Regt or his family.I do have alot of experience in listening to and trying to disuade soldiers from releasing. I personally think we have the best job around. And I have been married to an Engineer for a few years now, so I do know from personal experience. And you don't have to hold rank to have leadership, right?


As for being disposable, I wasn't meaning to be insulting. I know of another soldier who isn't resigning who don't really want to get out, but feel they have no choice. Their CoC doesn't get to the bottom of what's really going on in his head. I'm not talking about coddling him, but really listening. It's just such a waste. All that experience and training walking out the door.