• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

RMC Officer Sues to Avoid Saluting, Toasting Queen?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Capt. Chainnigh (Kenny) is back in the news today, persueing his case against HM Queen Elizabeth II.

Fair Dealings...subscription (perhaps) required:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/editorialsletters/story.html?id=7c9d1b0e-7522-4043-ac41-2316b5351e3e

Keep saluting our Queen
 
Ian Holloway
National Post


Tuesday, March 20, 2007


Captain Aralt Mac Giolla Chainnigh (until recently, Harold Kenny), a professor of physics at the Royal Military College and an officer in the Canadian Forces Reserves, has sued the government for what he alleges to be a "degrading" policy of requiring officers to stand during the loyal toast and salute during the playing of God Save the Queen. News reports suggest that Capt. Chainnigh has been fighting the policy for five years and has had his grievance denied by both the Canadian Forces Grievance Board and General Rick Hillier, the Chief of the Defence Staff. Capt. Chainnigh is now asking the federal court to declare the requirement to pay respect to the Crown as unlawful on the basis that it amounts to what he describes as "institutional harassment." In his public comments on the case, Capt. Chainnigh has repeatedly described Queen Elizabeth as a "foreign monarch." The news report says that his objection "is based on the premise that while Canadian law allows anyone to question the role of the monarchy in governing our country, officers have to shelve their beliefs and show loyalty to the Queen at events such as mess dinners, parades or Remembrance Day ceremonies, where they must salute for God Save The Queen."

It is clear what the federal court should do with respect to Capt. Chainnigh's suit. There are intellectually respectable reasons for arguing that Canada should become a republic. But to suggest that under current law the Queen is a foreign monarch is quite ridiculous. Even the most superficial reading of Canada's constitution makes this obvious. Section 9 of the Constitution Act, 1867 declares that executive authority over Canada is vested in the Queen. Section 17 provides that, along with the Senate and House of Commons, the Queen constitutes one of the three branches of Parliament. And, most pertinently of all, section 15 declares that the Queen is the Commander in Chief of the Canadian Forces.

Capt. Chainnigh's mistake is to confuse the freedom of conscience with the freedom of action. The fact is that, like every Canadian, Capt. Chainnigh is entitled to his own belief system. He is free to exercise his conscience at the ballot box to vote for candidates who are in favour of Canada becoming a republic. He is free to make a statement by changing his name to its Irish version. He is even free to resign his commission and to seek elected office himself, in order to better make the case for a republic. But as long as he wants the privilege of being able to describe himself as an officer (in Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, no less), it hardly seems harassment to expect him to acknowledge the plain terms of the constitution. It is not up to him, or to any member of the Canadian Forces for that matter, to pick and choose which provisions of the constitution he wants to uphold. As an old Chief Yeoman of mine once put it, once you take the Queen's shilling you have to take the rough with the smooth.

With the exception of the Monarchist League, many Canadian monarchists have fallen into the blunder of seeking to avoid confrontation by minimizing the constitutional centrality of the Crown in Canada. As much as Capt. Chainnigh might wish it otherwise, the bottom line is that ours is a thoroughly monarchical system of government. We are a constitutional monarchy to be sure, but we are a monarchy all the same. Those like him, who hold publicly-conferred office yet who deny or belittle our system of government, are themselves arguably behaving contemptuously of Canada and its institutions. Happily, both the Canadian Forces Grievance Board and Gen. Hiller seem to have been robust in their denial of Capt. Chainnigh's grievance. Now it will be interesting to see how staunchly the government of Canada is willing to defend the constitution.

- Ian Holloway is the dean of law at the University of Western Ontario. He is currently on sabbatical leave as a visiting professor at the National University of Singapore. He is a former chief petty officer in the Canadian Naval Reserve.

Ihollowa@uwo.ca

Article Ends, Emphasis mine.

This "Gentleman" has taken his grievance to the Federal Court, in the hopes of winning his case as a matter of institutional harrasment against non-monarchists. I truly hope that the Federal Court shows the wisdom that Prof. Holloway (CPO Ret'd) has displayed here.

DF



 
I'm thinking of a descriptive term for this, um, person...

rhymes with [removed attempt to get around the word filter]

 
Any Officer, or Man/Woman, who refuses to acknowledge the Queen should be charged with treason {as we have ALL sworn allegience to the Queen} and removed from service. 
Does he walk around campus NOT expecting Cadets to salute him? 
Or is he just being lazy and doesn't want to raise his arm?
Toasting the Queen at Mess Dinners, etc,is by tradition.
Rant off.
Cheers, BYTD
oh, and...  :salute:
:cdn:
 
Why don't they replace the good captain him with somebody who WANTS to be there? He does not want, nor deserve the commission he has been given.
I see that there are tons of people on this site that are waiting for a chance to serve the Queen (myself included).
 
And if he wins his suit, so what?  His career is effectively over as an officer and, more importantly, a combat arms leader.  I guess he can make a second career out of preaching his interpretation of "constitutional and professional loyalty" to impressionable, young RMC cadets. 

Now, I wonder what he does when someone salutes him?  Does he return that salute?  After all the salute is a mark of respect towards the Queen's Commission, not neccesarily the individual holding said commission.  If he returns the salute then he is acknowledging that respect on behalf of a "foreign monarch"!
 
I have eaten your bread and salt.
I have drunk your water and wine.
The deaths ye died I have watched beside,
And the lives ye led were mine.
Kipling,

This little self styled Fenian doesn't realize the Queen is more Canadian then any republican head of state can ever be (appointed patronagejob or politician). She is not some Foreign Queen she is the Queen of Canada.

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save the Queen.

O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all.​
:cdn:
 
I had to swallow hard when I swore allegiance to the Queen and her retarded son the Prince of Whales and "all of her heirs". The thing that got me through it is the fact that terms like"the Queen", the Queen's Shilling" and shite like that are anachronistic terms for important words like "Country", "national pride", and "Honour". Most I know have little or no use for all this frivolous crappolla of "Royalty", but I would never want to violate the memory of those that felt they were serving these obsolete notions. I would never want to abuse the foundations of our society, even though they are no longer relevent.

We don't need all these trappings to make us a Country or a culture, but we do need a certain amount of perspective and decency. The rules right now are that we are a Country with a Queen as our head of State. It is a bit embarrassing and ridiculous, but that is how it is. So be it. If someday that changes that would be great with me, but I am a soldier, I take my orders and I serve. If Canada wants to be headed by a Queen then I swear an oath to the Queen and her retarded son.

The swearing of a silly oath does diminish the value of an oath, just like telling your kids there really is a Santa Clause diminishes your integrity. We do it because it it the silly thing our society asks, and in the whole we hope it is worthwhile. So I understand this Captain's feelings, but I do not understand his actions. Come on, litigation? It's absurd to accept the rules you live and work by, accept the pay and benefits of the job, and then refuse to perform the tasks you have sworn to do. Yes, they are stupid. Yes they are an insult to intelligent people everywhere, but so what? You accepted the rules, you live by them. Suck it up. (Rant Done) :rage:

While I hope we are someday freed from the facade of the Monarchy, I am glad and grateful to be living in Canada. If Canadians want this "Royal" illusion then I will fight for their right to believe it, I am just glad none of those Royal dim wits actually order us or lead us into battle.

I will now prepare myself to be flamed. 
 
Dishonourably discharge the individual in question. At the same time ask him for his commission back, because like many have said before, it is a commission for Her Majesty's Canadian Forces. Since he does not respect the Queen as our monarch, and wishes to not pay the proper respects to the head of state, he should leave. NOW. no if ands or buts. Good day to you 'sir'. Will the drummer please drum out the individual in question as we cutt off all of his buttons, shoulder flashes and titles.
 
{attempt to post #2}
:rage:
I have another salute for this "officer".
I believe breaking his sword is also in order.
God Save The Queen.


{at least, She's a Lady}  :salute:
 
NO NO NO I'll take his sword! At least I'LL have a use for it when I'm on Parade saluting the Queen  ;D
 
This debate doesn't really seem all that useful.  We are in no way what so ever a 'functional' monarchy; everyone knows this.  We are far more influenced by the U.S. than the U.K. anyway.  I also don't know why some are so steadfast in their eagerness to defend the Queen; soliders don't fight for monarchs or the CDS or your brigade commander. There is a reason the regimental system is so powerful and why soldiers arn't taught indepth courses on foreign policy and political science as a means of motivation; because it doesn't work. Soliders fight for and with the people they know.  Sure the Queen seems like a nice lady and the CDS is freakin' awesome...but after having trained with, lived with and worked with the same people for 5-10 years...those are the people i'll really fight for.  Arguing over whether or not we should pay allegience to the Queen is a  product of the luxury of not currently being shot at. I have no issue with toasting her till the cows come home and respecting the very real traditions and heratige of Canada and the Canadian Forces.  But I know and understand the Monarch is never again going to SEND Canada into battle. 
I can't say that I'd die for the Queen, but I would for pvt. Bloggins anyday.

I would have suggested to this Capt. to raise his issue with his MP and have him or her bring it up in parliment, or better yet wait till he's out of the forces to press his complaint then. However, this is really an issue that is not an important one. The CF has infinitaly more important issues to work on, so i'm glad he was given a polite 'thank you come again' by the CDS and others
 
If the officer in question  is so against the Queen that he will not salute to her then there's something wrong. You don't need to be ready to die for the Queen , but you should at least pay your respects to her as the head of state.
God save our gracious Queen!
 
Have the terms of service changed?  I seem to remember something about not bringing suit against the Crown while a serving member of the Forces.  Is this still not the case?  Oh, and a happy belated St Fatpricks Day to the good Captain Unpronounceable.  :salute:
 
"her retarded son"  ?!

I presume this refers to Prince Charles.  I don't see how can deserve this, so I will defend some of his accomplishments:  He has a degree (the first ever for an heir to the throne) in history from Cambridge.  He speaks French and Welsh.  He spent most of the 1970s in the armed forces; flying jets in the RAF, and commanding a minesweeper in the RN.  Also:

"On being appointed Colonel-in-Chief of the Parachute Regiment, a few months before he was 30, The Prince asked to take part in the parachute training course.

The Prince felt he could not "look them in the eye" or wear the Parachute Regiment's famous beret and wings badge unless he had done the course, he told his biographer, Jonathan Dimbleby, 15 years later.

"I felt I should lead from the front or at least be able to do some of the things that one expects others to do for the country," said The Prince."

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/biography/militarycareer/

Twenty years ago people laughed at his interest in organic farming.  He spends a lot of time and money (his own, i.e., inherited family, as opposed to public, wealth) on charitable causes.

Say what you want about his personal life, but how many marriages could survive the pressure his did?  And he has been with Camilla for over thirty years.

Debate the merits of monarchy versus republicanism, but don't throw around undeserved personal insults.

 
Haggis said:
And if he wins his suit, so what?  His career is effectively over as an officer and, more importantly, a combat arms leader.  I guess he can make a second career out of preaching his interpretation of "constitutional and professional loyalty" to impressionable, young RMC cadets.   

Now, I wonder what he does when someone salutes him?  Does he return that salute?  After all the salute is a mark of respect towards the Queen's Commission, not neccesarily the individual holding said commission.  If he returns the salute then he is acknowledging that respect on behalf of a "foreign monarch"!

Here's the deal. His career is over anyway. He graduated in 78 which means he joined in 73 or 74 he's almost got his 35 in and he's taken advantage of the crown to give him a BSC a Master's and a PHd. He has nothing to lose at this point and now that he has a Phd can likely just take his uniform off and teach there as a civie for the rest of his life.

He will collect his pension, get a tenured position and live happily ever after...so this is no sweat for him.
Interesting that he didn't start raising a stink when he only had 10 years in and was just about to qualify for the CF to send him for his Masters degree or when he got us to pay for his PhD.....coincidence...I don't think so. A guy who showed this much disloyalty would not likely be recommended by his CO for PG training.
The good news is he won't be a CF member soon anyway....oh well  ::)
 
Promoted Capt in 1985, this guy was posted out of 1 PPCLI in 1987and hasn't seen the field for some 20 years!  
B Eng, MSC, Phd all on our nickle...... great career huh?

Methinks the Colonel of the Regiment should ask him to remove his PPCLI accoutrements and adopt badges that are more appropriate to his inclinations...... (which are none).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top