Sapper tab approval/denial

[a_ron]

Just throwing this out there, but does anybody know if approval for the sapper tab has been sought through NDHQ and if so, if it was approved or denied?  I'm trying to find out if I can put it up like the Ranger tab or not.

 

[Zam 041]

This was discussed while I was still serving and I retired in 2001.The tabs they talked about back then were just olive green,I think they were more for the combats than Deu's.
I doubt it is very high on a "to do list" in the CME world at NDHQ.

Have a good one

Mark

 

[a_ron]

Not the answer I was hoping for, but thanx.

 

[geo]

Uhhh....
what is the purpose of wearing a sapper tab?
the CME cap badge is all the advertising you need to wear.
You don't see the other combat arms wearing INFANTRY, ARMOURED or ARTILLERY

There might be something to be said about wearing the EOD badge cause there aren't too many of them around & not all sappers are EOD qualified.

Got enough pins, badges & the like right now - Thanks much.

 

[392]

Geo, the "SAPPER" tab is given to those soldiers who complete the US Army "Sapper Leader" course, and is worn much the same way as a "RANGER" or "SPECIAL FORCES" or "AIRBORNE" tab by US service personel. I know the few Canadian Engineers who have attended and completed the Sapper Leader course to date have all been awarded the Sapper tab, but I don't think any of them have been authorized to wear it with Cdn DEU or Cbts.

HOWEVER, that being said, I saw an email posted up in our breezeway that was a synopsis of some dress meeting within 2 CMBG, that made reference to the wear of US and other foreign "tabs" and the such, and it stated it was in the process of being sorted out at the CF Dress Committee (or whatever it is called) level. It stated that those tabs and badges would be authorized for wear on the left breast pocket of DEU (I cannot remember if it was above or below the medals), pending authorization from NDHQ. Also of note, it mentioned the wear of fleece as an outer garment, and wouldn't you know it - it IS an outer garment Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, the top of the email with the sender, recipient and subject line was ripped off before placement on the bulletin board, so I don't know how recent or accurate the email was. I'm only at work one more day before I take a couple days off and head to G'town on course, so if I remember, I'll take another look at the email for the exact wording and get some clarification from higher on where it came from and how recent the info posted is.

a_ron: I know it's not quite the answer you were hoping for, but I'm sure that you could always use your CoC to find the answer you need

 

[geo]

whups..... that tab!!!!
sorry - hadn't thought beyond our local boundries.

 

[Zam 041]

I did not even think about the "Sapper Leader" tab.


Mark

 

[Chimo]

I know the Branch Chief is locating at making a pitch tothe Army Dress Council in support of wearing the "Sapper" tab. He was searching for a graduate that would like to help him support his presentation. If you are that keen sapper and wish to help, please send me a PM and I can give you more detail. 

 

[Jungle]

HOWEVER, that being said, I saw an email posted up in our breezeway that was a synopsis of some dress meeting within 2 CMBG, that made reference to the wear of US and other foreign "tabs" and the such, and it stated it was in the process of being sorted out at the CF Dress Committee (or whatever it is called) level. It stated that those tabs and badges would be authorized for wear on the left breast pocket of DEU (I cannot remember if it was above or below the medals), pending authorization from NDHQ.

Well, this is not the first time it is attempted; there have been numerous propositions made to the CF dress committee about the wearing of foreign qualifications before. Al have been refused, except for the US Ranger and US Special Forces tabs.
I'll keep an eye open for this, but I am not holding my breath... I would love to see more foreign qualifications authorized for wear. There is space for a qual badge (CDN or foreign) on the left breast pocket, and one more above the name tag (both on the DEU jacket). Of course, tabs should be worn on upper sleeves.

 

[geo]

considering that the LFCWO is a sapper himself, this it "the" time to put forward a proposal............

 

[warrickdll]

Is there a CF equivalent? I don't think there is, but if there was then wearing a CF badge would be more appropriate than a US one (personally, I'm against all foreign badges/medals/etc).

More importantly is there a CF need? What would someone receiving this US Army designation now be qualified for in the CF that they wouldn't otherwise be? Without qualified reasoning then the badge would be of limited use.


I realize I'm well outside my lane on engineering qualifications.... so does the badge inform someone in the US Army that they are qualified for a specific unit (similar to the Ranger badge) or does it show a level of training/testing (similar to the Expert Infantryman Badge)?

 

[a_ron]

Iterator, there is no CF equivalent.  If you want some more info, just GOOGLE either "sapper tab" to see the American regs, or "sapper leader course" for info on the course itself.  Basically, the Americans class the tab in the same category as the Ranger tab (successful completion of the course = you get to wear it).

As far as a CF need, is there a "need" for any badge on your DEUs?  I'm pretty sure an Infantry officer isn't going to search his Battle Group for and EOD operator by looking at the badges on his Dress Uniform back in Canada to see who's qualified.

 

[geo]

Of course there is a series trade badge for sappers in the CF ... not to mention that there is an EOD badge & combat diver's badge - to go along with the para wings...  

Considering the frequency we actualy wear the DEUs, I think it's a non issue but, there are others.........

That having been said, when wearing our field uniforms & a helmet, a Sapper or EOD badge eliminates some of the guesswork when dealing with multinational forces when language can be an issue....(then again, the TB & AQ could ID em too)

 

[warrickdll]

..just GOOGLE either "sapper tab" to see the American regs, or "sapper leader course" for info on the course itself...

I guess what I'm asking (and not finding) is if there is a specific job that requires the Sapper Leader Course?

- Which leads into the next part here:

...Basically, the Americans class the tab in the same category as the Ranger tab (successful completion of the course = you get to wear it)....

Of course there is a series trade badge for sappers in the CF ... not to mention that there is an EOD badge & combat diver's badge - to go along with the para wings...

The difference, to myself, is that the badges for EOD, diver, para, pilot, etc, all indicate both a task and a qualification for activities which, even in peacetime, have high levels of inherent risk.

Example: The submariner course (or whatever it's called) isn't just a qualification; it's the prerequisite for crewing a submarine (an activity that, even in peacetime, has high levels of inherent risk).

So, does the Sapper Leader Course indicate something like that? What I've read leads me to think No - But I realize that that is entirely based on reading, and not on any actual experience.

Not that there aren't a few odd badges out there in the CF; perhaps miniaturized and worn like a Bisley rifle would be more appropriate?

...As far as a CF need, is there a "need" for any badge on your DEUs?  I'm pretty sure an Infantry officer isn't going to search his Battle Group for and EOD operator by looking at the badges on his Dress Uniform back in Canada to see who's qualified.

..Considering the frequency we actualy wear the DEUs, I think it's a non issue but, there are others.........

That having been said, when wearing our field uniforms & a helmet, a Sapper or EOD badge eliminates some of the guesswork when dealing with multinational forces when language can be an issue....(then again, the TB & AQ could ID em too)

Points well taken.

 

[a_ron]

Found a short article on the DIN about a Canadian on the Sapper course.

http://armyonline.kingston.mil.ca/SQFT/143000440002251/THESAPPERLEADERCOURS0.PDF

Congrats, Mr. Thompson

 

[Sapper6]

More importantly is there a CF need? What would someone receiving this US Army designation now be qualified for in the CF that they wouldn't otherwise be? Without qualified reasoning then the badge would be of limited use.

The Sapper course in the States does a lot of what we would call 'light infantry' work.  There is also an air assault component where they use the Chinook helicopters.

Is there a need?  Well, I could have certainly used some US Sapper trained soldiers in the Op APOLLO engineer squadron for expert advice.  My 2 cents.

Sapper 6

 

[geo]

Sapper6
You saying our boys were found lacking?

 

[Sapper6]

Sapper6
You saying our boys were found lacking?

No, I'm saying that the Fd Sqn that formed the Op APOLLO Engr Sqn (or Mob Sqn officially) was mechanised.  The tasks we were given were considered "light".  The missions we were given were mostly conducted with CH-47s in an air assault role for which there was little to no experience.  Fortunately, there was some latent experience from the Cdn AB Regt which I leaned on heavily.

So, a few Sgts or M/Cpls with the US "Sapper" tab would have come in handy.  Of course, who would have known prior to 2002 that Canadian Solidiers would be working with the 101st (AB) Div?

S6.

 

[geo]

Ah yes, lost skill sets
It really hurts when you know that some new things are "old" and were discarded for all the wrong reasons.

 

[SprCForr]

Ah yes, lost skill sets
It really hurts when you know that some new things are "old" and were discarded for all the wrong reasons.

+1