Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And we balance ourselves......

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And we balance ourselves......

The real issue is the Government of Justin Trudeau thought they could score short term political points by taking a hardline against the Saudi Regime over the Khashoggi Affair and use the Armoured Vehicle Contract as fake leverage.  They thought they could do this while simultaneously singing a different tune in the back room.

The Liberals fundamentally misunderstood the KSA mindset though. 

The vehicles themselves are completely inconsequential to the KSA.  They could have bought vehicles from anyone but they bought them from us because they thought it would buy them favour in the court so to speak with our Government which is what this deal was all about.  We screwed them for domestic political gain and now they are going to make us pay for that move.

It's that sort of 4 year election cycle calculus that has us on the hook for Billions of dollars of military hardware.  We fundamentally misjudged a Regime with 275 years of governance experience and history that thinks about things far differently than we do.

 

[dapaterson]

From my experience, Saudi Arabia paying late / making partial payment is per SOP.

Their business systems are like POTUS.  Pay when overdue, and then only the minimum, and fight in court.

 

[Journeyman]

...and it's only now a CBC headline because the London ON's three ridings voted Liberal, Liberal, and NDP, surrounded by Conservative ridings.

/cynic 

 

[daftandbarmy]

We screwed them for domestic political gain and now they are going to make us pay for that move.

'Sunny Ways', meet 'Realpolitik'  :nod:

 

[FSTO]

So next time (if there is a next time) there will be a Leopard 2 on the jetty that sits in front of the loading ramp and not one piece of equipment is loaded until an Saudi Prince drives an armoured truck full of gold equal to the value of the equipment on the jetty off the ship.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

'Sunny Ways', meet 'Realpolitik'  :nod:

:nod:

Saudis aren't stupid.  275 years of Absolute Power, you don't maintain that level of control by being dumb.

Canadians seem to be fairly ignorant of this fact and think it's simply a purely transactional relationship.  But it isn't just about that.  Saudis value civility and not losing face. 

I have to believe they took the comments from Chrystia Freeland and Global Affairs Canada very poorly and that the relationship between the Saudis and us is probably over until this Government leaves power.

 

[FSTO]

:nod:

Saudis aren't stupid.  275 years of Absolute Power, you don't maintain that level of control by being dumb.

Canadians seem to be fairly ignorant of this fact and think it's simply a purely transactional relationship.  But it isn't just about that.  Saudis value civility and not losing face. 

I have to believe they took the comments from Chrystia Freeland and Global Affairs Canada very poorly and that the relationship between the Saudis and us is probably over until this Government leaves power.

F*** em, those House of Saud sons of aborted camel calves can fry in the desert. Worst rich people in the world and we should have nothing to do with them. 

 

[MilEME09]

F*** em, those House of Saud sons of aborted camel calves can fry in the desert. Worst rich people in the world and we should have nothing to do with them.

Oil embargo, wonder how fast quebec would want a pipeline if they couldn't buy suadi oil

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

F*** em, those House of Saud sons of aborted camel calves can fry in the desert. Worst rich people in the world and we should have nothing to do with them.

Certainly but that doesn't negate the fact that we are now on the hook for $3.4 Billion Canadian with the number rising by $200 Million every quarter. 

Couple of really nice tidbits here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saudi-arabia-lav-canada-armoured-vehicles-1.5340087

According to General Dynamics' quarterly earnings statements, the Saudi late payment debt has been growing by $200 million every quarter since the beginning of the year.

According to CCC's website, "every contract signed has the legal effect of being signed in the name of the Government of Canada, providing foreign government buyers with the assurance that the contract will be delivered per the agreed terms and conditions, guaranteed."

Of course, the GoC will be on the hook for this as GDLS Canada is a sub-contractor of the Government of Canada as it is the Government of Canada who pays GDLS.

General Dynamics said in its quarterly earnings report that the late payment amounts — totalling $2.6 billion US, or roughly $3.4 billion Cdn —will be billed to the Canadian government "in accordance with the agreed-upon contractual terms."

"We continue to meet our obligations under the contract and are entitled to payment for work performed," the company said in its earnings release. "Therefore, we expect to collect the full amount currently outstanding."

If we think the Government of Canada won't step in to make up the shortfall, guess again!  It appears more and more that the 360 LAVs for the Canadian Army have a lot to do with making sure GDLS Canada doesn't close up shop as well as a $650 million "repayable" loan.

To help General Dynamics deal with the financial shortfall, the federal government announced on Aug. 16 that it would provide a repayable loan of up to $650 million to the company as it "navigates a challenging and dynamic international defence market," officials with Global Affairs Canada said in an email.

On that same date, the federal government announced its intention to acquire 360 LAVs for the Canadian Armed Forces, which already operate a fleet of older LAV models. The $1.7-billion contract was formally awarded to General Dynamics on Sept. 5.

 

This all fits with my theory that the non-payment is 100% related to the highlighted bit in yellow.

Relations between Canada and Saudi Arabia went into a tailspin in August of 2018, after a series of tweets by Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland and Global Affairs Canada criticized the arrests of women's rights activists in the kingdom and urged their immediate release.

Saudi Arabia expelled Canada's ambassador in Riyadh over what officials called "blatant interference in the Kingdom's domestic affairs," recalled its ambassador in Ottawa and halted all new investment and trade transactions with Canada.

In November of 2018, Canada imposed sanctions against 17 Saudi nationals linked to the murder of dissident Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who was killed at the kingdom's consulate in Istanbul, Turkey on Oct. 2.

Canada has a decision to make:  We can't hope to be a big manufacturing player selling weapons and military hardware to other Nations on one hand only to openly criticize those same Nations at every turn on the other hand and also try and dictate to them when, where and how they use said weapons.

Sweden operates a large and comprehensive defence industry through SAAB that makes every sort of military equipment you can imagine:  AFVs, Ships, Submarines, Radars, Rocket and Missile Systems, Aircraft, Weapons, etc.  They sell those systems to many different countries.  Nobody in the Swedish Government is going on Twitter and putting any of their business partners on sound blast while simultaneously trying to do multibillion dollar business deals with them.  Yet, nobody inside or outside Sweden is claiming there government isn't a beacon of light for progressive thought and action.

SAAB made over a $1 Billion Cdn in profit last year, NOT INCOME, PROFIT!

3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385]http://lt.morningstar.com/gj8uge2g9k/stockprofile/default.aspx?SecurityToken=0P0000A6J8]3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385

We have a lot of maturing to do as a Nation, we need to learn to "speak softly and wave a big stick" rather than our usual stance of "speaking loudly and waving a small stick".

 

[Brad Sallows]

>We have a lot of maturing to do as a Nation

For selected values of "we".

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

For those who think Canada's Allies will be jumping at the bit to help the Government of Canada impart Sunny Ways on the Saudis:

https://army.ca/forums/threads/131409/post-1588156/topicseen.html#new

Link to Large Article: "The UK’s Secret military unit that Answers to Saudi Arabian Commanders"

 

[OldSolduer]

Canada has a decision to make:  We can't hope to be a big manufacturing player selling weapons and military hardware to other Nations on one hand only to openly criticize those same Nations at every turn on the other hand and also try and dictate to them when, where and how they use said weapons.

3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385]http://lt.morningstar.com/gj8uge2g9k/stockprofile/default.aspx?SecurityToken=0P0000A6J8]3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385

We have a lot of maturing to do as a Nation, we need to learn to "speak softly and wave a big stick" rather than our usual stance of "speaking loudly and waving a small stick".

The "virtue signaling" has to stop. JT and C Freeland make us look like idiots on the world stage.

 

[FJAG]

The "virtue signaling" has to stop. JT and C Freeland make us look like idiots on the world stage.

It's all that they are capable of doing and, based on the election results from Metro Toronto,  :brickwall: it seems to work well for them.

:stirpot:

 

[OldSolduer]

It's all that they are capable of doing and, based on the election results from Metro Toronto,  :brickwall: it seems to work well for them.

:stirpot:

Thank you.  ;D

When the media first ran with this story my first thought was "What did you expect they'd do with them? Parade them around Riyadh or wherever?"

LAVs are made to transport people who's sole mission is to kill other people.

 

[CBH99]

I know I got roasted on this a while back, about how job losses here & there "don't really add up to much, and I'm overly concerned about it."

But it truly does add up when you have a car plant close here, another plant close there...500 families now unemployed here, another 300 families unemployed there, etc etc.




Then you look at the LAV deal with the Saudis, or the helicopter deal with Indonesia.  It really does add up.

We aren't the only country in the world that makes good armoured vehicles.  Saudi can easily purchase from a number of other countries, without the moral lectures that come from JT & company.  (And if there is one group of people who not only don't care, but will turn on you in the blink of an eye for attempting to bring up concerns about human rights, it's the Saudis.) 

Flush with cash and wanting to purchase a few hundred?  Great.  Come in.  Pay upfront.  Here's your vehicles.


If we have concerns about your f**ked up country being run by your f**ked up family, we either state so beforehand or we hold our tongue until the contract is done & funds are in place. 

(I don't disagree with Freeland btw, somebody had to speak out about the ladies who were arrested, detained, and I'm sure degraded in horrible ways, simply for speaking out against cruelty.)  But Twitter shouldn't be the mechanism of communication for politicians - it shouldn't even be the mechanism of communication for teenagers for crying out loud.



Indonesia wants 15 general utility helicopters?  Sounds good.  Here ya go.  Pay us money, and here's your helicopters.

The nonsense there was unreal.  It's a GENERAL PURPOSE UTILITY HELICOPTER based on a 50yo design at this point.  It isn't an attack helicopter by any means, and they too can (and did) just go purchase 15 general utility helicopters from someone else.  Whether they bolt some machine guns on afterwards really isn't under anybody's control except theirs, since they purchased the machines and now own them...and they can do that with literally any airframe they purchase.


I agree with the above posters.  We either manufacture arms and sell them, or we lecture other countries on how not to be total dicks.  I don't think we can really do both.  A tiny country like Sweden has a great arms industry, for a reason.

(Another recent article which I'll find later is a Canadian company that had an order for 20,000 rifles ordered by our friends the Kurds, who ultimately couldn't export them...even though the Canadian government was open to supplying them with similar weaponry.  So they packed up shop and moved to the US to do so.)


It really adds up, and it's Canadian families who ultimately suffer the final consequences of a poor business environment.  It doesn't do much to bolster our world image either - you think Saudi Arabia gives a flying f**k what a white woman in Canada thinks?  <unintentional rant off>  :2c:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Thank you.  ;D

When the media first ran with this story my first thought was "What did you expect they'd do with them? Parade them around Riyadh or wherever?"

LAVs are made to transport people who's sole mission is to kill other people.

When equipped with a 25mm bushmaster, they are also very good at killing other people in their own right  ;D

Again, we are very Naive.  Our European friends, not so much.  I personally found the BMM SANG article I posted fascinating, particularly the little tidbit from the Diplomatic Communiques almost 70 years ago:

One reason the British agreed to the Saudi request was that, “The ‘White Army’” – as the SANG was then known – “is the principal prop of the present Saudi regime, and any successor regime would be worse for our interests in the Gulf than the present one”, the foreign office noted in 1963. It added, “It is thus much to our interest that the ‘White Army’ should be efficient.”

I don't think the situation has changed radically.  While the KSA Royal Family may be pretty bad, the Regime that would succeed it without our support would be much worse.

 

[OldSolduer]

SO herein lies the issues - do we stand by and lecture regimes not as liberal as ours and suffer the consequences?

There are several nations in this world that we could stand by and lecture about human rights etc - China anyone? Russia?

And Twitter should be taken off politicians phones. You don't govern or criticize via Twitter.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I know I got roasted on this a while back, about how job losses here & there "don't really add up to much, and I'm overly concerned about it."

But it truly does add up when you have a car plant close here, another plant close there...500 families now unemployed here, another 300 families unemployed there, etc etc.




Then you look at the LAV deal with the Saudis, or the helicopter deal with Indonesia.  It really does add up.

We aren't the only country in the world that makes good armoured vehicles.  Saudi can easily purchase from a number of other countries, without the moral lectures that come from JT & company.  (And if there is one group of people who not only don't care, but will turn on you in the blink of an eye for attempting to bring up concerns about human rights, it's the Saudis.) 

Flush with cash and wanting to purchase a few hundred?  Great.  Come in.  Pay upfront.  Here's your vehicles.


If we have concerns about your f**ked up country being run by your f**ked up family, we either state so beforehand or we hold our tongue until the contract is done & funds are in place. 

(I don't disagree with Freeland btw, somebody had to speak out about the ladies who were arrested, detained, and I'm sure degraded in horrible ways, simply for speaking out against cruelty.)  But Twitter shouldn't be the mechanism of communication for politicians - it shouldn't even be the mechanism of communication for teenagers for crying out loud.



Indonesia wants 15 general utility helicopters?  Sounds good.  Here ya go.  Pay us money, and here's your helicopters.

The nonsense there was unreal.  It's a GENERAL PURPOSE UTILITY HELICOPTER based on a 50yo design at this point.  It isn't an attack helicopter by any means, and they too can (and did) just go purchase 15 general utility helicopters from someone else.  Whether they bolt some machine guns on afterwards really isn't under anybody's control except theirs, since they purchased the machines and now own them...and they can do that with literally any airframe they purchase.


I agree with the above posters.  We either manufacture arms and sell them, or we lecture other countries on how not to be total dicks.  I don't think we can really do both.  A tiny country like Sweden has a great arms industry, for a reason.

(Another recent article which I'll find later is a Canadian company that had an order for 20,000 rifles ordered by our friends the Kurds, who ultimately couldn't export them...even though the Canadian government was open to supplying them with similar weaponry.  So they packed up shop and moved to the US to do so.)


It really adds up, and it's Canadian families who ultimately suffer the final consequences of a poor business environment.  It doesn't do much to bolster our world image either - you think Saudi Arabia gives a flying f**k what a white woman in Canada thinks?  <unintentional rant off>  :2c:

I for one think you are on the money. I'm also a pragmatic realist though so you will find that I'm probably in the minority of the Canadian population.

You also can't think about the Factory that builds the vehicle in isolation.  GDLS themselves would have hundreds of subcontractors delivering parts and services as part of the overall project.

SO herein lies the issues - do we stand by and lecture regimes not as liberal as ours and suffer the consequences?

There are several nations in this world that we could stand by and lecture about human rights etc - China anyone? Russia?

And Twitter should be taken off politicians phones. You don't govern or criticize via Twitter.

We should probably be lecturing everyone if this is the case as there aren't many more Liberal than us.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

On the bright side, we can argue that the Saudi's are not really using them for fighting, but running away, generally unsuccessfully.