Saving Money in the PRes (From: The Defence Budget)

[Edward Campbell]

There has been a long standing argument that the PRes should be focused on generating junior soldier and leaders, officers and NCOs, for the arms; the implication is that many specialized functions ~ engineers, signals, medical and logistics (including RCEME) ~ should be strengthened, in numbers, in the regular force.

I don't have a position, but I have been reading this and related threads with interest. The difficulties of training specialist soldiers have been made clear. The question is: how to overcome them?

 

[GR66]

There has been a long standing argument that the PRes should be focused on generating junior soldier and leaders, officers and NCOs, for the arms; the implication is that many specialized functions ~ engineers, signals, medical and logistics (including RCEME) ~ should be strengthened, in numbers, in the regular force.

I don't have a position, but I have been reading this and related threads with interest. The difficulties of training specialist soldiers have been made clear. The question is: how to overcome them?

Perhaps the problem is that there are many "types" of Reserves but one Reserve system.  The Reserves may be tasked to provide trained individuals to augment the Reg Force.  They may be tasked to provide a sub-unit with specialized skills and the ability to operate with the Reg Force.  They may be deployed for a variety of Domestic Ops.  Or they could be used as a mobilization base in the case of a required expansion of the Reg Force in a war.  Each of these roles might require a different system to properly fulfill those tasks.

Maybe only certain trades lend themselves to individual augmentation due to the difficulty of learning the skills on a part-time basis.  There could be a role for units that focus on providing generalist skills required for many (non-specialized) domestic ops or as a mobilization base.  Some units could perhaps focus on fairly narrow specialist skills that could be used to augment the Reg Force on a sub-unit level (way out of my lane here...Mud Recce?  Mortars? you tell me).  Releasing Reg Force members or Reservists with specialist civilian skills (commercial pilots, merchant seamen, paramedics/nurses/doctors, law enforcement, heavy equipment operators, electronics specialists, etc?) might need a system where they work directly with Reg Force units in order keep their skills in line with current military requirements.

This all comes back however to what E.R. Campbell shows as the one key thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22099/post-1276259.html#msg1276259).  First we as a nation need to define what it is we expect the military to do before we can tackle the specifics of how we do that.

Now for the $64,000 question...how do you get that debate on the agenda?

 

[mariomike]

Releasing Reg Force members or Reservists with specialist civilian skills (commercial pilots, merchant seamen, paramedics/nurses/doctors, law enforcement, heavy equipment operators, electronics specialists, etc?) might need a system where they work directly with Reg Force units in order keep their skills in line with current military requirements.

How much Military Leave would that require from their full-time employer each year?

This is the policy where I worked:

"Employees can take a leave of absence with pay, for the two week period of absence, to attend the Canadian Armed Forces Reserve Training Program.

The maximum period of absence is two weeks in a calendar year."

 

[MilEME09]

How much Military Leave would that require from their full-time employer each year?

This is the policy where I worked:

"Employees can take a leave of absence with pay, for the two week period of absence, to attend the Canadian Armed Forces Reserve Training Program.

The maximum period of absence is two weeks in a calendar year."

well under the Alberta employments standards leave for reservists is:

Reservist entitlements

Under the Code, employees who are reservists are entitled to an unpaid, job protected leave of
absence when deployed to an operation outside of Canada (including any required pre- or
post-deployment activities) or inside Canada to assist with an emergency.

In addition, a reservist is entitled to unpaid leave of up to 20 days each calendar year to
participate in annual training.

20 days doesn't give a lot of time, though there are provisions for how to get more time off in the document

 

[mariomike]

well under the Alberta employments standards leave for reservists is:

In addition, a reservist is entitled to unpaid leave of up to 20 days each calendar year to
participate in annual training.

Ontario has ( unpaid ) Reservist Leave:
"Reservist leave is unpaid, job-protected leave for employees who are Canadian Forces military reservists and who are deployed to an international operation overseas or certain operations within Canada."
http://www.worksmartontario.gov.on.ca/scripts/default.asp?contentID=1-5-6#H1

If the topic is, "Saving money in the PRes", the jobs listed by GR66 would likely loose income on unpaid leave.

 

[Journeyman]

I don't think there is a real use for the reserves.

Well now that we have your opinion, .......

And I'm called upon to post, one more time.....

There are opinions...and there are informed opinions.

Based on your opinion (the first type), I suspect that:

a) your militia unit had abysmal leadership (I was posted RSS to a Reserve unit; leadership varies);
b) you're not qualified, possibly not capable, to consider Reserve utility above the Pte/Cpl level;
c) nuanced thinking (ie - make adjustments vs. disband the Reserves) is not your strong suit.


I found your earlier posts on grounding spikes interesting though.  Maybe "staying in one's lane" isn't a bad thing

 

[Newt]

What about reducing the number of exercises that take place at area training centers? Increase the number of exercises conducted in the urban areas where units are located.

This could:
1. Reduce transportation costs.
2. Reduce fuel costs for units with large vehicle fleets such as Armoured Recce.
3. Increase public awareness of the PRes in the community.
4. Increase time spent training, decrease time spent sitting on a bus.

Challenges:
1. Blank ammunition cannot be used, but given current fiscal realities militia rounds would probably be used anyways.
2. Public relations challenge due to the fear of "soldiers, on street corners, with guns."

 

[Jarnhamar]

The only way I see the reserve ever truly working is for it to focus ENTIRELY on individual training, preferably by tagging on in small groups in reg force units during IBTS weeks and then practicing CT on exercises. The nights and weekends ought to be scapped entirely. Otherwise you end up with the blind leading the blind and re-inforcing bad habits.

You're describing what would amount to being an administrative nightmare. You're talking about removing time that reserves have to practice and train and then throw them in with full time soldiers who probably won't exactly appreciate having to turn around and teach and practice the reservists in order to pass IBTS.  Reservists also can't just take off a few weeks last minute to attend reg force ibts training.

 

[George Wallace]

What about reducing the number of exercises that take place at area training centers? Increase the number of exercises conducted in the urban areas where units are located.

This could:
1. Reduce transportation costs.
2. Reduce fuel costs for units with large vehicle fleets such as Armoured Recce.
3. Increase public awareness of the PRes in the community.
4. Increase time spent training, decrease time spent sitting on a bus.

Challenges:
1. Blank ammunition cannot be used, but given current fiscal realities militia rounds would probably be used anyways.
2. Public relations challenge due to the fear of "soldiers, on street corners, with guns."

Additional Costs:

1.  Class A employment for pers who would have to obtain proper clearances from:
    a.  Local Municipal governments;
    b.  Notify local Police and Emergency Services;
    c.  Private property owners;
    d.  Business that may be affected by Exercise; and
    e.  Business that may be involved in Exercise (supplying materials, equipment, fuel).

2.  Class A employment for pers who would be involved with Damage Control (Insurance coverage).

 

[PuckChaser]

The only way I see the reserve ever truly working is for it to focus ENTIRELY on individual training, preferably by tagging on in small groups in reg force units during IBTS weeks and then practicing CT on exercises. The nights and weekends ought to be scapped entirely. Otherwise you end up with the blind leading the blind and re-inforcing bad habits.

I've got a unit you can post into to try out that theory. I guarantee you won't like it.

 

[Newt]

Additional Costs:

1.  Class A employment for pers who would have to obtain proper clearances from:
    a.  Local Municipal governments;
    b.  Notify local Police and Emergency Services;
    c.  Private property owners;
    d.  Business that may be affected by Exercise; and
    e.  Business that may be involved in Exercise (supplying materials, equipment, fuel).

2.  Class A employment for pers who would be involved with Damage Control (Insurance coverage).

Those are points I hadn't considered, thank you. There are certainly a lot of logistical concerns that would have to be addressed, and they may not offset the costs of travelling to area training centers.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

And I'm called upon to post, one more time.....

There are opinions...and there are informed opinions.

Based on your opinion (the first type), I suspect that:

a) your militia unit had abysmal leadership (I was posted RSS to a Reserve unit; leadership varies);
b) you're not qualified, possibly not capable, to consider Reserve utility above the Pte/Cpl level;
c) nuanced thinking (ie - make adjustments vs. disband the Reserves) is not your strong suit.


I found your earlier posts on grounding spikes interesting though.  Maybe "staying in one's lane" isn't a bad thing

You have your opinions, I have mine. While your obviously don't agree with my opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it any less valid, or less informed.

While I feel that my experience certainly makes me qualified to offer an opinion, and I feel that I certainly am capable of nuanced thinking, these too are opinions, just as your assumptions of me are.

My feeling that the reserves, as a whole, is a not a cost effective way to achieve the capabilities that I think the military needs. My personal feeling that we ought to reinvest that money in the regular force stems from my experience with the reserves. Most of the people I worked with were university or high school students, typically staying in only for 4 years. That's a lot of investment in a person that the military is making, especially in the technical trades (like ACISS for my experience) where they have attempted to provide the same level of training for the reserves as they do for the regular force. While the average time in for a regular force person is either their VIE (~4 years) or until retirement (~25 year CE) the average time in is significantly longer in the regular force.

I've never been one to buy the idea of "it's good to have a population with military experience" argument, as I feel modern militaries are much more complex, and the likelihood of Canada being invaded is remote, and the likelihood of Canada being invaded by a power that is not capable of simply rolling over our modest military is rather non-existent.

So my opinion is this, our limited tax dollars are best spent maintaining a well trade, well equipped professional full time military. If resources are available to be spent on the reserves, I think those same resources would be better spent increasing the size of the established regular force.

My opinion. You don't have to agree.

 

[Haggis]

If we do away with the Reserve Force (and I assume you mean only the Army Reserve?), how do we maintain the CAF's footprint in the community?  Of course you realize that, in small town Canada, Reservists are the face, representatives and ambassadors of the CAF.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

If we do away with the Reserve Force (and I assume you mean only the Army Reserve?), how do we maintain the CAF's footprint in the community?  Of course you realize that, in small town Canada, Reservists are the face, representatives and ambassadors of the CAF.

I don't know about you, but I grew up in a small town that way nowhere near any reservist unit. Everyone's opinion of the military was exceptionally high, higher than in any town like London Ontario, or Saint John NB. I don't see that being worth the money spent.

 

[kratz]

You have your opinions, I have mine. While your obviously don't agree with my opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it any less valid, or less informed.

<snip>

My feeling that the reserves, as a whole, is a not a cost effective way to achieve the capabilities that I think the military needs. My personal feeling that we ought to reinvest that money in the regular force stems from my experience with the reserves.

<snip>

My opinion. You don't have to agree.

Based on your post, I'm not assuming you are an expert between elements and the inner workings of the other parts of the reserves.
Granted you are entitled to many things. "Your opinion indicates your recommendation of throwing out the baby with the bathwater."

If the RCN were to have followed your suggestion, two to four of the heavies would have been tied up along the wall for the past 15 years
due to the mix of manning shortages and mission requirements.

As you emphasis, if there had of been no PRes within the RCN. The training pipe for MARS IV officers would have been several affected, along with many mission critical responses during those same years. NRTD, Port Security and other missions assigned to NavRes through those years that have been acclaimed would also have gone unmanned.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Based on your post, I'm not assuming you are an expert between elements and the inner workings of the other parts of the reserves.
Granted you are entitled to many things. "Your opinion indicates your recommendation of throwing out the baby with the bathwater."

If the RCN were to have followed your suggestion, two to four of the heavies would have been tied up along the wall for the past 15 years
due to the mix of manning shortages and mission requirements.

As you emphasis, if there had of been no PRes within the RCN. The training pipe for MARS IV officers would have been several affected, along with many mission critical responses during those same years. NRTD, Port Security and other missions assigned to NavRes through those years that have been acclaimed would also have gone unmanned.

I'm looking at the opportunity cost. That same money directed to recruiting additional sailors could, and in my opinion, would be better spent.

 

[a_majoor]

Radioopetc. might consider that other nations with different reserve systems can operate combat systems up to mechanized combat teams with tanks etc., sometimes spending even less time parading than the Canadian PRES does. This might suggest the real issue is we have not optimized our reserve training, or are focusing on some other metrics, or just not very good at it under the current system.

Given the multiple examples of effective or usable reserve forces in other nations, I think the question of PRES organization and training desrves far more attention than it gets, and certainly there is long historical experience that demonstrates that reserve forces make effective force multipliers and allow military forces to respond in a flexible and effective manner to all kinds of contingencies. Certainly the idea that you can increase the number of "boots on the ground" when needed at a lower cost than having them paid and employed ful time is always going to be attractive to governments concerned with finances, if nothing else.

 

[Harris]

What about reducing the number of exercises that take place at area training centers? Increase the number of exercises conducted in the urban areas where units are located.
-SNIP-
Challenges:
1. Blank ammunition cannot be used, but given current fiscal realities militia rounds would probably be used anyways.
2. Public relations challenge due to the fear of "soldiers, on street corners, with guns."

My Unit does this now and has for the last 9 years.  Your two challenges above haven't been an issue at any of them.  We're currently planning on doing another one in Mar.  Involves more co-ordination and prior planning for sure, but not significantly so.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Radioopetc. might consider that other nations with different reserve systems can operate combat systems up to mechanized combat teams with tanks etc., sometimes spending even less time parading than the Canadian PRES does. This might suggest the real issue is we have not optimized our reserve training, or are focusing on some other metrics, or just not very good at it under the current system.

Given the multiple examples of effective or usable reserve forces in other nations, I think the question of PRES organization and training desrves far more attention than it gets, and certainly there is long historical experience that demonstrates that reserve forces make effective force multipliers and allow military forces to respond in a flexible and effective manner to all kinds of contingencies. Certainly the idea that you can increase the number of "boots on the ground" when needed at a lower cost than having them paid and employed ful time is always going to be attractive to governments concerned with finances, if nothing else.

Just because other nations have part time reserves doesn't mean it's the best decision. Plenty of other countries make less than optimal decisions, just as well do.

Personally, I think the expected standard for militaries has been increasing overtime. The jobs have gotten increasingly more complex. Even in my experience the difference in what was expected of a Rad Op is nowhere close to the breadth and scope of the job we expect now for the new guys coming up through the ACISS trade. It's only getting worse as well.

I know it seems to be making a lot of people here angry or uncomfortable, but from my perspective, if I had to make the decision on where to invest tax dollars, I would trade 20,000 reservists for 5,000 regular forces.

Obviously I don't think this is going to happen, it would be too politically risky for MPs coming from places like London ON, areas around Toronto, parts of Quebec and the Atlantic Provinces. Not to mention inside DND where people like to feather their future nests.

 

[dapaterson]

I know it seems to be making a lot of people here angry or uncomfortable, but from my perspective, if I had to make the decision on where to invest tax dollars, I would trade 20,000 reservists for 5,000 regular forces.

You wouldn't get 5K for 20K.  Reg F pay is $100M/week for 68K.  Thus, for 5K Reg F you need to find $7.3M/week, or $380M annually.  Shutting the Army Reserve completely (around 20K) wouldn't save that much.


On the other hand, returning the Sigs branch to field signals and relying on civilians and contractors for in garrison networking would save a considerable chunk of change and free up Reg F PYs for other purposes.