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Scipio's gender based pseudo psychology thread, split from Re: Female Cdn inf soldier in Afghanistan

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Scipio said:
Are you freaking kidding me?! You are saying that because the Military is recruiting females they are "just taking what they can get"

I'm saying that is the impression it gives, with respect to my theory (which is a popular one that holds strong in the UK and US). Re-read. 

I have read and re-read your previous statement many times. I did this because I damn near fell off my chair when I read it the first time, and wanted to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

Scipio said:
Wether the Canadian army is doing it or not is debatable.  But image is important to a military.  And certain things speak volumes about it's soldiers.  If you step through my logic in the last post, perhaps you will see my conclusion.

"So when a Military starts recruiting women in combat, it says something.  It says so few quality selection pools are being brought forth, that we need to take in what we can get."

I see your conclusion. You said that you believe that looking to recruit women into combat is done because not very many quality selection pools are available. This means they now look "lower" to women, since they obviously wouldn't be included in these "quality selection pools" you speak of. Why would we be included, we are just women after all.  ::)

 
How about you re direct your anger to getting yourself into good shape to get INTO the army first. Are females in the combat arms all lazy and useless?No.Are a large percentage?Undecided.All I know I knew two,and only two women in the armoured trade who could actually do their jobs.Also I knew a infanteer once who could kick most guys asses,man she was big dumb and strong.She's out now but man what a troop.

I also can count about 2000 males who are lazy sacks of shit,fat,weak etc.So on percentage wise who is the worst soldier really?

I personally think your they type of guy who would use sweeping generalisations towards many groups of people.And may find yourself in crap with the sharp team if you ever get in.Being the army who treatens to charge a troop for nude pic of ladies in a locker, in a sqn with NO females.

Personally I could give two fks about saving the women (except my own family) and babies.I guess I wasn't raised to feel bad for females,therefor if their in uniform they better do the same job or get shit for it.I don't care if their genetic's make them weaker,I'm 5 foot nothing and I promise I can outrun/outruck a lot of people.So should I give up training physically and say "genetics made my legs 6 inches long so I don't have to keep up?" No you adapt and overcome.Put PT on a PER and boot out per's male/female who don't "make the team."I know a lot of fit women in this army who would agree.

I hate Sharpe training, and wish to be able to shoot the "I'm 37 and a mother of 13 I'm allowed to be fat and sit at my desk" per's.

It all comes down to can they meet the minimum standards?
can they do the job?

I won't get into my rant of minimum standards.

My wife is Ex army their scorpio and I'm willing to bet she can run your ass in the ground.She was also advance permot ed and many accommodations and little "good job" plaques from Canada and USA....then she got out and followed my dumb ass around...poor girl.

 
oh dear Scipio.....no matter if your theory makes any sense at all....people just won't listen  when it comes down to pointing out that maybe...just maybe we aren't all equal and capable of doing anything as well as everyone else (contrary to popular belief). Like clockwork your theory is shot down before anyone actually reads it carefully. The mere mention that a man may actually do something better, or is more suited to doing a better job is taboo (you should know that). We do everything exactly the same. We all have the same capabilities, thus nothing should stop us from achieving our lofty goals. The world is just one big happy place where we (.no matter how different all races and sexes can be) are all equal.  It's a horrible business...this being a man and all.

bad...bad..evil... men... >:D


lay it on me people....
 
Aluc,

I read this theory. I never said that I believed that we are all equal, because I know better than that. I know that I do not have the upper body strength of most of my male friends. However, I do know a gal who is way more built and fit than ANY guy I know. Yes it took her a lot of effort and work to get her form, but she did it.

The point of this is not that we get pissy anytime someone says we are not "equal" to men. My point is that he was wrong to say that by recruiting females into the military we are taking people below what they should. What about being a female makes me any less qualified to be a great soldier? If women are fit to do the job and want to, back off and let them do it. People need to be judged for what they can do on an individual basis, who the heck cares what sex they are. I sure don't.

*edit for typo
 
Centurian1985 said:
The problem was almost all of the CSMs refused to have her in  their rifle coy's, so she got put into the maintenance pool until she finally said ''I am friggin out of here".

Since then I have worked with a lot of female service members, and they are just like the guys.  Some of them cant pull their weight, but a lot of others were good leaders and kicked ***.  The same goes for female soldiers I worked with in the US. 

I will admit only ONE exception that I know of - artillery: youve got to be strong to move those damn big shells around!   

Upper body strength can be worked on...... and for the real heavy gear - it's a small party task and you shouldn't be lifting it on your own in the 1st place.

many women in the Engineer trade...... and even with bridging - they pull their weight...
 
This mentality was what existed just a 'few years' ago (in the middle of the past century) with Race.  Blacks were not thought to be good enough to be soldiers.  Before that, in Roman times, I imagine the Gauls were not considered enough to be absorbed into the Legions.  Times change.  Society's perceptions change.  I do wonder where Scipio has been brought up to have these views, as I am sure they are far from the norm in today's Canadian Public School Curriculum?
 
I see your conclusion. You said that you believe that looking to recruit women into combat is done because not very many quality selection pools are available. This means they now look "lower" to women, since they obviously wouldn't be included in these "quality selection pools" you speak of. Why would we be included, we are just women after all.  Roll Eyes

Ok, let me do a coles notes for you.  This is related to women in combat infantry or any direct combat role. 

1) True- Men are physically more capable in the means and extremes for armed combat, in comparison to women. Do you buy that?  If not, then don't bother read on.

2) The military has a screening process to find quality candidates. Theoretically they only want the prime pickings.

Now it branches off into two different streams.  Since men should out score women in equal requirements in an overshadowing majoirty (push ups, chin ups, raw endurance, lifting)..........

3a) Women are hired because they superceded the quality of the male candidates due to a poor turn out of males.  IE- women beat the odds. 

3b) There are not enough candidates, PERIOD, therefore, quotas to match turnover rates are met by taking the best of what is given.  Which is not really prime pickings.

Connotations of  3a)

Women were taken, not because they are the best, but because they are the best of what was available.

Connotations of 3b)

Women were taken, not because they are the best, but because they are the best of what was available.

Still with me?

Ok, great.  So whether the Canadian selection pool IS Lacking or IS NOT lacking- it's moot.  The point is, the result of letting women fight in combat lends to the idea that the selection pool is LACKING more so than NOT.  And that able men are not applying. 

What does it say in the end? The Canadian governement is either not intrested in creating an efficient warmachine machine or they are interested but feel women's rights are being infringed or The Canadian army will not advertise and market itself to the populace.  (popular consensus among civillians is that our army is too irrelvant and small to give consideration too, which is BS, films have done a good job on cementing such tripe-Canadian films)

However, as I already suggested, the above is probably not the case (Infact I'm sure it isn't).  It has more to do with Canadian liberalism and the idea of building a PC army as oppose to an effective one.  Heck, the same group who rallied behind women in combat are the same group who cut military funding, slashed the number of ships, planes, and soldiers, abolished old uniforms (later returned by demand), and set quotas that MUST be met for certain peoples within the ARMY, refered to our soldiers as 'boy scouts', shipped them around the world on dangerous missions-poorly equipped, and generally went out of their way to emasculate the once mighty Royal Canadian Military (sounds much stronger than CF, no?).  It's called Political Correctness.  It's called pandering.  These people never intented for Canada to have a mighty army.  Chretien, Trudeau, and almost every other liberal party lacky would soon rather see the military gone than effective at full force.  It was in a dieing state not to long ago.  The people that lobbied women in combat don't give a rats behind about the esprit de corps within the army.  Infact, they went out of their way to kill it.

Aluc, of course you're right, and I'm an idiot for trying.  I didn't expect open arms, but I certainly did not expect the childish and malicious responses that I got.  I thank God the Conservatives got into office.  I have great hopes that they will do what they say.  Our soldiers in Afghan are equipped with cutting edge material and their presence is felt with a nice sized garrison, and to top it off the mission is over seen by a red blooded Canuck.  I really hope he keeps to his word with those budget boosts.

 
Scipio said:
JTF2 BMQ selection pool, then women would be at a major disadvantage.  And so it stands women are ineligible for those positions. 


Intresting.....And you would know that woman are ineligible for JTF2 how?

Guess what?

WRONG!

Romantic illusions of war my arse! no man joins with the idea that killing someone for their country is cool, and if they do trust me that get's pounded out their head so fast I think it hurts them.

You can't even run 2.4km in the allotted time and yet you come here and spout off at the mouth, your not exactly qualified to tell us what is happening in the military or why we do things.

Aluc:

You know what... I'm not happy with woman in Cbt Arms however I do what I'm told and I am told that they will be here so I STFU (like I suggest you do)about it and do my job. Not everyone is equal your right about that, but that doesn't mean they can't try and succeed or fail on their own, like Scipio here he tried and failed, how about you Mr blank profile what have failed lately...Oh right you failed to impress anyone on this site with your sarcastic comments on equality.

Are we all equal?

Not in my eyes, neither of you are equal to Card, Scoutfinch, NavyMich, Muffin or any serving woman on this board, not even by half!
Let alone the others on here who have been in the forces longer then you have been a gleam in your daddy's eye!


*EDIT* I missed Muffin, and well that aint right :D

 
Times change.  Society's perceptions change.  I do wonder where Scipio has been brought up to have these views, as I am sure they are far from the norm in today's Canadian Public School Curriculum

Not quite. From what I see and hear from my sons and their friends, I can only shake my head. It makes you want to give them a slap up the side of the head too. They don't seen to know any different. A lot of it is media/friends/??, a lot of MSN speak is filled with it, the young'ens seem to find being chauvinistic cool, and the girls accept it.

I put my sons on the spot when they come out with some of this s***, and yeah, they know different, but to them it's cool and they want to fit in.

Then I see and listen to the attitudes once they reach 20-21 and it's the reverse, like there was a little tiny switch somewhere. Go Figure!!
 
Card_11,

trust me, there is nothing wrong with women in the military if they are held to the same standards that were set before them.  I respect women, and more so military women (and men) because of the nature of the job. However, all Scipio was eluding to (i think) is that men are more predisposed to war and violence than women probably because of social conditioning throughout history. I think it is a valid point, and I don't believe he is belittling women. I'm not sure about the Cf recruiting women and lessening the standards because of a shortage of manpower though...it could be a possibility however.... Who knows. That's the whole point of debating such issues...because we don't know. I'm not saying I support that assumption, eventhough it is possible I don't think it's probable. (anything is possible!)

My previous comment was probably in the wrong context, but I was kind of alluding to the fact that we (as a society) tend to teach people that we should strive for the moon, even if we know that certain people (try as they may) will never, ever reach  the moon, and it's not a good thing.

For instance, we tell kids when they're in school that they should strive to reach university. Not all kids will have the smarts, the money etc to reach that goal ( in part to due societal factors they have no control of). Then you're left with a group of disenfranchised kids who hate the world around them and everything it stands for. In keeping with my example, I don't think it's bad if you don't get into university, as long as you do something worthwhile and do it well, so you can be proud out what you're doing. But when you dumb things down in order to include everyone, even those that really don't belong there, problems will arise. People in general ( I'm not bashing women here!) have to realise their limitations . We prop people up just to let them down, and then they cry bloody murder when they don't get what they want because they aren't qualified enough to do it (Gotta go back to work sorry for the abrupt ending). hope this made sopme sense , kinda rushed at work right now. :-\
 
I don't think someone has to pass the PT test to express their thoughts about the military.  I don't particularly see chauvinism in the thread either.  In terms of military requirements, besides the obvious different physical standards on entry, are there any other differences for entry?  Any recruiters out there that would know whether there are gender/racial quotas to be met?  Would all applicants who are equally qualified receive the same consideration for a position?  Maybe ... however, does anyone who posted on the thread know for sure?  Everyone seems to agree that on the whole men are more physically developed than women.  However, I agree with perseverance, work ethic, etc. making up for some (however, I also believe that men work as hard and persevere as much as women - no one jumped on that earlier).  If a female or male can perform as required, I don't think it should matter what sex they are.  As for the males wanting to die for their country and get laid ... well, I am not a teenager anymore and I am no longer delusional (if I ever was) about what would get me laid, but I could never imagine that becoming a soldier would get me into more beds.  Sure, guys like to puff up their chests, perform athletic feats to impress females (instinct, no?), however, we are also well gifted with an immensely powerful brain that allows us to rationalize what we do and why we do it.  If we look at things from a purely elementary instinctual point of view, maybe some of what was posted in the initial thread makes sense, however, we have the ability to rationalize etc. and I think that is what makes us able to control 'primal urges' etc. until necessary to release.  And I have not combat experience etc. however, I cannot imagine getting past saving my skin and the skin of my 'brothers' in a tight situation.  I am not joining the country to die for it, nor to get laid.  I am joining to defend Canada as I feel it is my duty to give back for what I have received.  If it means getting into situations where I might die, then so be it, however, it is not my wish to do so.  Just my 2 cents.
 
Theres woman in the forces.....???? Thought we were all Soldiers!!!!
 
HitorMiss said:
*EDIT* I missed Muffin, and well that aint right :D

Well I was going to stay out of it because I don't think you can change a person's mind in a few posts - but I will tell you my 2 cents (since you mentioned me ;) )

Although when I joined the military my PT requirements were less than that of a man - they sure as hell weren't once I hit training! If the men ran we ran - if they dropped for 50 so did we... there was no gender "coddling" on course, so regardless of the lower PT test scores etc - if you are goign to hack it in the service you have to be able to exceed the minimum; this goes for men AND women alike.

I know many men and women who fly through the tests and many men and women who struggle with the PT test... and in my opinion if you can't do it , it is probably time to consider a different career. After my 2 kids, I wasn't in the same shape I was when I joined and it didn't look like I was going to get there too quickly - so I released. I could have worked my ass off to get back to the shape I was in before I had kids - but those 3-4 hours a day I could have spent at the gym, I chose to spend with my family. (That was the right decision for me - not for everyone).

Regardless of why you can't do it any more (gender, age, motivation, whatever) you should move on and not expect the rest of the military to slow down to accomidate you.

I do NOT believe it has anything to do with being a woman or man. I knew a navy Cdr once, a woman (Journeyman you may remember her ;) ) who could whoop anyone's ass at PT (man or woman). While I do think that being able to meet/exceed the standard is necessary to be a good soldier, and all members of a unit should be able to do all jobs required regardless of gender... I do not think that brute strenth alone makes a good soldier.... but that is for another rant.

muffin

*edit spelling
 
Well, since Muffin mentioned me......  ;)  (and yes I do recall the sailor in question  :)  )

I just love threads like this. Much like car-wrecks...but self-inflicted. You just sit back and watch a person dig themselves deeper and deeper, occasionally contradict themselves as they concede points, but end up at the bottom of the well nonetheless.

If nothing else, they reaffirm the recurring themes in posts by these "being banned in waiting" contributors: A) little to no practical, real-world  experience, and B) an inability to see how this lack (exacerbated by the common "blank profile") blinds others to their self-believed "obvious, inarguable wisdom."

Now, while trying to avoid an ad hominem attack on you Scipio, with all your self-avowed intellect.....do you not see even a remote disconnect between your absence of any military experience (yet you feel qualified to declare how I want to die for women), your inability to pass a 2.4 km run (a standard which has been greatly diminished since I joined, by the way), and your going on and on about the supposed lesser abilities of females, including those who have exceeded your abilities?

That's a rhetorical question by the way. I wish only that, rather than assuming people here are attacking you, perhaps people just find your premises completely laughable.

P.S.
A) there's never been a "Royal Canadian Military,"
B) a JTF-2 standard BMQ would prove difficult for both genders, and
C) I bet the thread's locked before Card kicks his butt  ;)
 
I have always hated Cole's Notes. I happen to have an above average reading comprehension level, and therefore don't require your assistance. I stand by my interpretation of your line about having to settle for females.

I am a firm believer that the entrance standards for the Military should be the same for men & women. I will not do my PT test unless I know I can meet the minimum standards for the men as I will have to "keep up" when I do end up on course. Just for your info Scipio, I being female and all, run the 2.4 km to the male standard, have the hand grip to the male standard, and the sit ups to the male standard. My pushups are sadly just below that standard, but I am getting there! So, does this place me in the group of "qualified" applicants? You said that you cannot meet the male standard on the run right now. Does this make me a more ideal candidate now because I can? That's odd, I thought you were the male.

*Edit for typo.
 
On that happy note, I am going to head off to my weekend BMQ where the women get to do PT and training at their convenience while the men have to do it according to the training standards. ::)  (Sadly, we don't get to do any real PT on my BMQ which is mighty disappointing because I wanted a chance to show those little whippersnappers that they really need to respect their elders!)

But while we are at it... can someone explain to me why a pushup is the almight Holy Grail in determing physical fitness.  I am course with guys that can do more pushups than I but they sure as hell can't run 20K and probably can't do a 13 K ruckmarch.  So what makes them a better soldier than I?  I don't get it.  Yes, physical strength is important but I suspect endurance and the ability to operate while fatigued (talk to me after running 18 or 19 kms) are equally as valuable as pushup ability.

Off to BMQ for another weekend...
 
Journeyman said:
That's a rhetorical question by the way. I wish only that, rather than assuming people here are attacking you, perhaps people just find your premises completely laughable.

Yes, you're completely on course, but I can fully understand why some Members are angry and insulted.

The only re-deeming point of his Thread, is that he's sticking around to defend it (unlike PIKE).

I would be interested to know, if his assumptions apply also to the recruitment of Females into Law Enforcement Agencies ?.

Cheers
 
scoutfinch said:
But while we are at it... can someone explain to me why a pushup is the almight Holy Grail in determing physical fitness.  I am course with guys that can do more pushups than I but they sure as hell can't run 20K and probably can't do a 13 K ruckmarch.  So what makes them a better soldier than I?  I don't get it.  Yes, physical strength is important but I suspect endurance and the ability to operate while fatigued (talk to me after running 18 or 19 kms) are equally as valuable as pushup ability.

Off to BMQ for another weekend...


Wow! now that's a really good question, (disregarding the Age Old Military Tradition).
 
Because its easy to tell 50 people to drop and give me 30, but really time consuming to have all line up at the weight bench? ;D
 
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