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Search for New Canadian Ranger Rifle (merged)

Tank Troll said:
I really hope that "rigorous testing"will be the case. I don't want to sound skeptical...............but that song has been sung before. Just about everyone here can think of a least a couple of pieces of equipment in our current inventory that is less than what was needed. For our Rangers safety and well being the testing needs to be "well and thorough" any thing less would be a great disservice to them.
Since I'm going to be one of the guys out there when the testing is going on along with my OC and CSM I can assure you it will be rigorous.  However, what you're referring to (I think) is that even after the testing an inferior product was chosen.  Not much I or anyone else testing a product can do about that, if the powers that be make a decision contrary to advice that's their prerogative.  All we can do is give them the best advice possible.
 
Chief Stoker said:
I guess they were already looked at

Excerpt from a Canadian government document concerning the military's Small Arms Replacement Project II (SARP 2):

13. A company based in Australia, Australian International Arms (AIA), markets a M10 No.4 Mk IV Modern Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) Rifle in 7.62mm NATO calibre. This rifle is a replica of the Lee Enfield but in appearance only. The cost of this rifle, less ancillaries is approximately $800.00 (Cdn). The CF technical authority for small arms, DSSPM 5, on 24 Jul 08 conducted an initial examination of the AIA rifle because in appearance it closely resembles the current Lee Enfield. The technical authority concluded that the rifle would not meet the Canadian Ranger’s requirement without significant modification and re-engineering because it is cheaply made.

14. The Australian International Arms M10 No 4 Mk IV SMLE Rifle fires a 7.62 x 51mm NATO cartridge and at first glance appears to meet the CF requirement as a replacement for the Canadian Ranger Rifle. The rifle is assembled from parts manufactured from throughout South-East Asia in locations such as as Viet Nam, Thailand (teak stocks) and Indonesia.    The barrel is hammer-forged in Australia. The general assessment is that the rifle is accurate and attractively priced, but it was clearly designed for the civilian recreational shooting market and it is not a military product. Many parts of the rifle are cheaply made and would likely fail under testing.

Yes I have seen that assessment, and their comments would apply to every rifle on the market. I have used and shot the AIA, the basic gun is very sound and heavier built than the Lee Enfield. Buying the licence would gain you the receiver, barrel and mag plans, which are the key components, everything else can be modified to suit. The mag is almost a straight copy of the M14 mag, which has seen much combat. I suspect the biggest issue with the AIA is that it's to much like the rifle it would replace, they want something "New and Modern" A 21st century solution!! The reality is that firearm devolopment in regards to bolt actions really hasn't changed that much, just the materials and manufacturing techniques have evolved.
 
Canadian.Trucker said:
However, what you're referring to (I think) is that even after the testing an inferior product was chosen.  Not much I or anyone else testing a product can do about that, if the powers that be make a decision contrary to advice that's their prerogative.  All we can do is give them the best advice possible.

You are quite right in that regard, lets see if the end product is what is need as apposed to what some one thought was needed or what could be made do with.
 
Me personally, I love my Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk.3 to death , and I would take it into battle over any gun any day EH! I think the .303 round has the perfect amount of stopping power, yet still reasonably accurate and controllable. I have a British Small Arms 3-9x40mm scope on it and I have no problems hitting chest sized targets out to 300 meters. (I know that's not great, but I'm not the best shooter.
 
I have one of the AIA Enfields, and am generally impressed with it's manufacture.  (Bear in mind, I look at it from a machinist and competitive shooter's point of view.) 

How well would it stand up to the rigors of rough use?  Probably not as well as the #4's that have been trucking along for decades. 

The real question in my mind though is, what rifle on the market today *WOULD* be best?

NS
 
I doubt they are going to find one, the market price for standard bolt action rifles is pretty tight and long term life and the ability to be pounded about is not really in the makers minds. There are some beautifully made rifles out there, but the price will be way out of reach.

I suspect that after much gnashing of teeth and wailing, they will have to do  a stop gap buy that is meant for 4 years and does 20. Plus they will buy on a scale of 1 for two and spare parts for 5% failure rate. They will need 3 to 1 and spare parts for a 35% failure rate.
 
Some pictures I took of the Ruger scout rifle. Seems to be a standard mauser action.

DSCN1157.jpg

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Update:
Just had a working group in Esquimalt in May to further discuss the requirements of the rifle.  Testing should begin next year with expected production/distribution taking place in 2014.  Should have more info this Fall as there is another working group in November in St.Jean, QC.
 
It makes you wonder if there's a big enough market out there for a rugged, cheap, reliable bolt action rifle like the Lee Enfield to justify starting up production of the No. 4 again? They're doing it with aircraft like the Twotter, why not 'real man guns'?
 
daftandbarmy said:
It makes you wonder if there's a big enough market out there for a rugged, cheap, reliable bolt action rifle like the Lee Enfield to justify starting up production of the No. 4 again? They're doing it with aircraft like the Twotter, why not 'real man guns'?

I would be willing to pay a premium if I knew I was getting 'original' quality. I have done the bolt action rifle search in the surplus market and it would be a godsend if I could just buy an old design but newly manufactured.
 
Well, for new build rifles, the AIA M10 is a knock-off of the No 4 Lee-Enfield, but at $800 retail I wouldn't call it cheap. At that price you may as well pay $900 for a Ruger Scout.

You can get a refurbished M1903 or M1917 for $1600 from Miltech south of the border. So again not cheap.

If you want cheap, you can get new build Chinese SKS for $200, or a Chinese M-14 for $400.

I think the only way you'll get a new build WWII quality rifle at Wal-Mart prices is if the Chinese start exporting something like a 308 Scout Rifle with a mauser-style action, price it at $300, and aggressively market it as "the world's gun".
 
Ostrozac said:
I think the only way you'll get a new build WWII quality rifle at Wal-Mart prices is if the Chinese start exporting something like a 308 Scout Rifle with a mauser-style action, price it at $300, and aggressively market it as "the world's gun".

Nice business plan. All we need now is an angel with a bejillion dollars....
 
daftandbarmy said:
Nice business plan. All we need now is an angel with a bejillion dollars....

That angel is Norinco. But it's more of a fallen angel. Our business plan may be to widely distribute Jeff Cooper's books, translated into Mandarin, and watch China turn into devotees of large bore bolt actions. But, quite frankly, "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak The Truth" would be viewed as so subversive by the Chinese government that it would make the crackdown on Falun Gong look like a sideshow.

Seriously, if you're going to build the new Ranger rifle with North American (or EU) workers, it won't be cheap, it'll be priced like a Ruger. If you want cheap, durable, and off the shelf, Norinco M-14 may be the answer, but is that doable? Do Chinese companies even bid on MERX? The original proposal specified a bolt-action 308, but what options are out there for a new build 308 bolt action battle rifle? Ruger Scout? Steyr Scout?
 
You can get arsenal refurbed Mosin Nagant M-44s & M-38s for around $200. Just like new and pack a wallop with the 7.62x54R cartridge. Just as solid as anything Lee Enfield made.

Makes a good scout rifle also.

This is one I built for my daughter from an M-38 with a long relief scope. Less than $350 total. Polymer stock, scope and action. Plus I've got the original bits (stock, sights, etc) that went to rebuild a frankengun.

IMG_0245.jpg

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recceguy said:
You can get arsenal refurbed Mosin Nagant M-44s & M-38s for around $200. Just like new and pack a wallop with the 7.62x54R cartridge. Just as solid as anything Lee Enfield made.

That makes alot of sense as I'm guessing the Russians would build a reliable cold weather rifle. Wouldn't it be fun to watch Uncle Sam light up after we do a deal with the Russkies for a few hundred of these?

Nice work by the way. You've got me thinking about good ideas for presents for my daughter (and my wife will hate it, of course)  ;D
 
One of the bear monitors we had on a job I was on up North a number of years back was packing a Mosin-Nagant...looked a little mangy, but I watched him test fire it and it did the business. 

MM
 
Luckily it has a huge bayonet, my personal criteria for a proper rifle.

Intersting to note that they were made in the US at one point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

United States

U.S. Rifle, 7.62 mm, Model of 1916: Due to the desperate shortage of arms and the shortcomings of a still-developing domestic industry, the Russian government ordered 1.5 million M1891 infantry rifles from Remington Arms and another 1.8 million from New England Westinghouse in the United States. Some of these rifles were not delivered before the outbreak of the October Revolution and the subsequent signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk which ended hostilities between the Central Powers and Russia. When the Bolsheviks took over the Russian government, they defaulted on the Imperial Russian contracts with the American arsenals, with the result that New England Westinghouse and Remington were stuck with hundreds of thousands of Mosin–Nagants. The US government bought up the remaining stocks, saving Remington and Westinghouse from bankruptcy. The rifles in Great Britain armed the US and British expeditionary forces sent to North Russia in 1918 and 1919. The rifles still in the US ended up being primarily used as training firearms for the US Army. Some were used to equip US National Guard, SATC and ROTC units. Designated "U.S. Rifle, 7.62mm, Model of 1916", these are among the most obscure U.S. service arms. In 1917, 50,000 of these rifles were sent via Vladivostok to equip the Czechoslovak Legions in Siberia to aid in their attempt to secure passage to France.

During the interwar period, the rifles which had been taken over by the US military were sold to private citizens in the United States by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, the predecessor agency to the current Civilian Marksmanship Program. They were sold for the sum of $3.00 each. If unaltered to chamber the US standard .30-06 Springfield rimless cartridge, these rifles are prized by collectors because they do not have the import marks required by law to be stamped or engraved on military surplus firearms brought into the United States from other countries.

 
.... from The Canadian Press (no sign of the briefing note being shared, so no indication what else is in there)
They went toe-to-toe with the Taliban in the dusty laneways of Kandahar without batting an eye, but it's the mighty polar bear that's giving the Canadian army pause for thought.

The military had been on the lookout for an "anti-predator weapon" with which to equip both Arctic Rangers and regular force units whenever they operate on their own in the North.

In the meantime, it has issued First World War vintage Lee-Enfield rifles to units based in southern Canada for use whenever those northern response companies are dispatched to the Arctic.

The issue of "protection from predators (polar bears) was brought forward" at a meeting last year in Resolute, Nunavut, where the military was discussing what kinds of equipment it needs to operate in the remote, unforgiving terrain.

"Army tasks for now include presence (sovereignty), support to the population (disasters, etc.), recovery (MAJAD, downed satellites, SAR assistance, etc.)," said a Sept. 14, 2011 briefing note prepared for the head of the army, Lt.-Gen. Peter Devlin.

"Although the norm is for our personnel to work closely with Rangers, the possibility exists of operating for a brief period without their close support."

The roughly 4,700 Rangers — sprinkled in 178 communities across the North — are the backbone of the military's presence in the region.

They conduct patrols across the vast frozen wasteland and are equipped with Lee-Enfields, bolt-action, magazine-fed rifles that were standard issue during the first half of the 20th century.

The army has been trying to replace them for years because there are so few manufacturers left who make spare parts for the rifles, first introduced to the British Army in 1895.

The fact that they don't freeze up or jam in the Arctic is part of their charm, so the army made the decision last year to equip regular force units conducting operations in the North with Lee-Enfields until replacement weapons arrive, possibly next year.

The weapons the Rangers are using were purchased in the 1950s.

Public Works put out a tender last fall for 10,000 replacement rifles, but defence industry sources said Friday that the program has been held up over concern about who holds the design rights on certain weapons ....
 
milnews.ca said:
...the program has been held up over concern about who holds the design rights on certain weapons ....
True story.  The issue is there has been discussion that whoever ends up getting selected as the NCRR competition winner, they would give their design to Colt Canada and Colt Canada would manufactur the new rifles.  You can understand how this has not been met by the other manufacturers with applause and hugs.
 
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