Similarities between Reserve Armour and MP

[Fishbone Jones]

Reserve MPs do zero police work. Wear cadpat just like everyone else. Spend the majority if not all their ex's in the field being miserable like everyone else. Reserve MPs are not police, have no police training and do not do police work.

Regular Force MP's are police officers, they don't do 6 months at the police academy to be stuck doing menial tasks in the field. If you don't like the scope of the Reg Force MPs then that is your problem due to you close-minded thinking. They wear different uniforms so they can be easily identified, by the public, CF members, their families and DND personnel. Each trade has it's own function, the Military Police are mandated to Police the Military.

As for your Afghanistan comment, search around, you'll see numerous MPs were involved in OTW operations in Afghanistan.

And FWIW if you're a reg force MP stuck on an army base, you still have to participate in field ex's on a yearly basis.

Yup, still didn't answer my questions though, did you?

 

[dan005e]

Feel free to call me out and prove to me that your Corps (not individuals or their detachments) have participated in real Ops, other than the guys we had in Afghanistan that only did prolonged, indecisive, and mostly useless investigations on accidents that happened with Canadian vehicles. Most, if not all, were determined no fault because there was no driving rules, signs, traffic lights, marked lanes (dependent on the time of day).

And we'll agree, you do Ops, but as per above, what do you really do but police soldiers that are living austere, trying to stay alive and live and work in a place that has no rules.

Except the chicken crap ones that MPs want to try enforce for their own ego.

Ok, sure I will call you on that. I've went to Kandahar twice, both times I saw and worked with MPs in the POMLT that were "living austere, trying to stay alive and live and work in a place that has no rules." Sitting back and disparaging the whole branches contributions to an operation, when members have fought there, suffered there, bled and died there is incredibly stupid.

 

[Shamrock]

That would only make sense. Maybe things are different in other units/regt. I came to the same conclusions as you did RG, a while ago, and asked the same questions. Shamrock is in a better position than I am to get the latest info, but last I was briefed it was as I have stated above.

We are apparently eager to sign up anyone who is BMQ/BMQ-L (and up) qualified, but they can not parade until they have successfully completed MPAC.

MP BTS draw quite heavily upon armour TTP and GMR - tasks such as TCP, escorts, RAS, route recce, CBRN recce, &c.  We call them TACSEC tasks. 

It would be extremely beneficial to get MP on armour courses.  Getting them on them is a fight from both sides - armour, because our training resources are so scarce and we need to train our own troops; MP because the train to need hasn't been identified at the strategic level.  Remember the bun fight over the G-Wagen commanders somewhere on this forum before?  I've put forward similar recommendations as to Recceguy's - that each field MP Coy should have a CA officer as its Ops O.  This not only frees up the Coy Comd to provide provost support to the Brigade commander, it provides tactical expertise to their subordinate Platoons.  MP are such a small and specialized trade they can't achieve the diversity required to integrate well into the rest of the CF, so may as well bring the diversity to them. 

Recceguy, lead the change you espouse.  Grab some meatheads from your area and employ them as a driver in one of your troops for a weekend ex.  Create the avenue for that reciprocity.  Don't just sit there and beat your chest and point fingers.

 

[Dissident]

The armoured recce exchange has been discussed at the local level for some time. I have some good acquaintances at the BCR through my involvement shooting at the BCRA matches.

I have asked for many things over the years because of my perception of a gap in our skills/knowledge. Last time we did winter warfare I asked for some infantry SME support, but was denied for whatever reason.

Can we split this thread already?

 

[Tibbson]

I've chosen to keep my mouth shut...until now.  Let me enlighten you on a few things (not that I think it will do any good)

Then, maybe, you can explain to the rest of the CAF, where I'm wrong.

Special uniforms, special tasks. special..........

Those "special uniforms" as you call them are not something we drove to obtain as much as we were required for practical purposes to have.  Like it or not, legally by jurisdiction, your local MPs are considered the town police for the "town" of CFB Somewhere.  That involves policing military members on the base as well as civilians who are within the jurisdiction.  Those individuals, especially the civilians, need to know how to identify the police both from a practical duty standpoint and from an officer safety standpoint.  Do you seriously expect there to be a police agency with three different environmental uniforms?  I think not

Answerable to nobody but your own individual command structure.

I can't begin to name the legislative and legal reasons for that change.  Enough people have complained about percieved, and at times real, Chain of Command interference in MP ops that things had to be changed to remove as much of that perception and issue as possible.  Furthermore, it extends only to policing related issues and for military matters (not military law issues) the system remains the same as it is for any other Unit of the CAF.

Tell me what I'm missing. Plenty

I don't know how long you've been around, but I've done this crap for over 37 years and I've watched the transition.  I've been doing it as an MP for almost 34 years and I've LIVED the transition.

When was the last time you (the big you) signed a route, did traffic control on Ex or deployment or actually did something called rear area security. 

The only thing people see nowadays is MPs dressed as pseudo cops giving people tickets.

It has been years, literally, since I've seen an MP detachment, on ex, with a doghouse on the back of their vehicle doing what a tactical MP unit is supposed to be doing in an unstable zone.  All that means is that you have no clue what a tactical MP unit is supposed to be doing in an unstable zone.

<big snip of unrelated crap>


However, when the Mandarins above give you bullshit policies to follow, is there not, at least, one person in your trade, that has the balls to say "Hold it. We're military first, police second?"

That is where you are wrong.  We are not military first and police second.  In fact we are not even police first and military second.  We are military police, plain and simple.  We legally have to walk in both fields and cannot favour one over the other.  I cannot not investigate something because it will make the military look bad or it may offend some of my military buddies.  At the same time, just because I am military does not mean I can neglect my policing responsabilities or do something "the military way" just to be part of what ever team you want me to be part of.

And that's the crux. MPs are not military anymore. You've (the collective) moved yourselves outside the sphere of the CAF and into a paramilitary police force that answers to no one.  We are military and I take great offence to that comment.  My CFs are just as dear to me as you are.  My badge states "Military Police Militaire".  My Sacrifice Medal was paid for in the same blood as any infanteer's was, any sailor's was or any airman/woman's was.  I parade on Remembrance Day same as you and I mourn the lives of those buddies I have lost.

Other than the crest you wear, nothing identifies you as military.  Again, I'll draw your attention to my CFs.  If you are upset that our patrol persons wear a policing uniform that I expect to see similar comments to these from you in the cook's forum or the medics forum or the forum on here for any other trade that has a distinctive work uniform other then the one you wear.

The last time most MPs were on a Brigade parade, they were doing traffic control so the marching troops wouldn't get hung up with traffic.  Actually, I'd hazard a guess that per Unit there were more MPs in attendance at the Day of Honour parade here last week then most other units here.  And yes, while you are on any brigade parade the MPs are doing traffic control, traffic enforcement, criminal investigations and other MP related duties the same way the cooks are getting ready to feed you after the parade and the medics are standing by to pick up any of you that thunder in from the heat.

Feel free to call me out and prove to me that your Corps (not individuals or their detachments) have participated in real Ops, other than the guys we had in Afghanistan that only did prolonged, indecisive, and mostly useless investigations on accidents that happened with Canadian vehicles. Most, if not all, were determined no fault because there was no driving rules, signs, traffic lights, marked lanes (dependent on the time of day).

As someone who deployed with the MPs, twice, I again take offence to your ill thought out comment.  The MPs lost a number of good people during our time in Afghanistan just as most other Units and/or trades did.  Three died and many others are carrying the effects of their time in Afghanistan.  EVERY Canadian casualty overseas was all investigated by the MPs to ensure we as a military could stay exactly how our members died.  On top of all of that, there were a number of non-combat deaths that occurred which required investigation and as a result those responsible have been held responsible and others may still yet be held responsible.  Also, from close protection duties to training the ANA MPs and Afghan police, to being on patrols with the infantry to living in the FOBs to accepting/transporting/supervising detainees...members of the Branch were just as engaged as others.

And we'll agree, you do Ops, but as per above, what do you really do but police soldiers that are living austere, trying to stay alive and live and work in a place that has no rules.

Yes, we police soldiers living in those conditions and at the same time WE are living in those conditions as well.  Additionally, if your buddy was killed next to you by an ND or in an ill planned training ex or as a result of negligence....during those austere conditions, I can guarantee you would feel differently.  As well, if (God forbid) you were a victim of one of those types of incidents I'm sure your family would appreciate the jobs the MP need to do.  Given the fact you do not appreciate it I guess you should consider yourself lucky. 

Except the chicken crap ones that MPs want to try enforce for their own ego.

Contrary to your assertion, I don't hate MPs, they have a job to do in the military, same as everyone else.

What I can't abide is the ones in your Corps, that believe they are above the military ethos and feel it's their responsibility to dictate what everyone should do.

You (collective) are not a stand alone police force, you belong to the CAF and contrary to what your top Watchdog believes, you are not a stand alone outside the CAF chain of command.

No, we are not.  I'll give you that much BUT we are not able to do our job either legally or practically if we were to be the way you want it to be.

And that's the problem that you face and why you feel slighted and why you feel you need to defend what everyone else sees, with eyes wide open, what is wrong with the MP Corps.

I see more wrong with the way you want things then with the way things are now.  I suspect the problem is more with you then with the current state of the MP Branch and the way we do business.

 

[PMedMoe]

Can we split this thread already?

:ditto:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Never mind. I was an ass upthread and I'll apologize to any and all that I offended.

I'll back out of the conversation and let things get back on track.

RG

 

[lambeosaurus]

Wow, I didn't except that thread to go wild.

So I sent my transfer request a few weeks ago. I asked about it, but they didn't have any news.

They said it could take a long while. What bothered me is when I asked if I could parade at the MP unit as an attach-post until the transfer would be effective. They said they wouldn't let me, as they don't do attach-postings anymore bacause it wastes a position that could be filled by recruitement or whatever. I would need to ask for a leave until then.

I've never heard of such thing before. At my current unit, there are a few guys attached-posted from other regiments. Yes they are armour, but still  :-\

 

[George Wallace]

Wow, I didn't except that thread to go wild.

So I sent my transfer request a few weeks ago. I asked about it, but they didn't have any news.

They said it could take a long while. What bothered me is when I asked if I could parade at the MP unit as an attach-post until the transfer would be effective. They said they wouldn't let me, as they don't do attach-postings anymore bacause it wastes a position that could be filled by recruitement or whatever. I would need to ask for a leave until then.

I've never heard of such thing before. At my current unit, there are a few guys attached-posted from other regiments. Yes they are armour, but still  :-\

Sorry to hear this news.  It boils down to one thing, unless things have changed in the last little while; "laziness".  If you are permitted to parade with another unit, you sign a separate pay sheet which is then sent to your parent unit (as you still belong to them) for finalization and entry into the system so you can be paid.  You would not be taking up any position at the MP unit other than the chair you would be sitting in.  Their only responsibility would be to forward your pay sheets to your Armour unit so you can receive pay due you. 

Of course all this requires "Administration".  Both your Armour unit and the MP unit CO's have to agree to let you parade at the MP location.  The MP OR would have to set up a separate pay sheet for you and mail/fax it to your Armour unit to be entered into the Pay System.  Until such time as your documentation for a transfer to the MP Trade was finalized and you became a member of the MP unit, you would not be filling any position on their Nominal Roll.  If they are worried about spots being taken away from their Recruiting, you would not be taking a spot away from their "Recruiting Off the Street", but fall into another category altogether. 

"Laziness" is the only word to describe this situation.  Laziness and lack of knowledge on these matters on the part of the OR, Recruiter, and CO of the MP unit.

 

[Dissident]

Maybe the recruiter has the wrong info, or just passed on an easy explanation to dismiss lambeosaurus.

Through my CoC my unit has said that we will not take on people on "attach posting". I would not call this lazy or ignorant, not when you consider the outcome if said attached member fails the MPAC. What happens to the poor troop who has to come "home" after being dropped from the MPs because they failed MPAC?

Don't get me wrong, I met some people who would have been a nice fit at the platoon and that I would have loved to have on hand before they did MPAC. We've aloso put a lot of effort and time into some troops, only to have to tell them to go somewhere else. It is heartbreaking.

 

[Poppa]

I know Garb asked this a while back but does the OP want to OT to MP?
If not, I honestly can't see a reason why they cannot be att posted. No intent to transfer...not costing anything just an extra troop to do stuff and come away with a positive outlook on MP (hopefully). This is something that I'd personally have no issue with. In fact we've had non MP att posted to a Pl here in ON for the past few months in a command postion because there wasn't any MPO avail in the area to be a Pl Comd. This is something I'd run up to LF MP Gp or CA MP Gp or whatever they're calling themsleves these days and ask.
My  :2c:

 

[lambeosaurus]

I don't really want to transfer MP.
I said in my memo that I wished to be attached for the time I need to live in the area where there is only a MP and infantry unit.
I wrote that I would like to transfer only if an attached post wouldn't be possible.

I have not been clear, it is not the MP unit that doesn't want me to get attached, it is my home unit that doesn't want because I would waste a position at their place. I'm very disapointed, I was looking forward to go on fall exercices with the MPs.

Maybe it is just laziness or something fishy is going on.