"So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread 2002 - 2018

[WannaBeFlyer]

It just means it'll be more competitive

Yes, the required score is high right now (as I found that out during my attempt to do a CT last month). That was before they announced the changes to the vision requirement. :-\ 

I wonder if this will close the CEOTP door in the future because they will have more than enough applications coming through DEO and ROTP along with all of the various transfers...

 

[Strike]

Just picked this off the news wire.

PUBLICATION:  GLOBE AND MAIL
IDN:  072080137
DATE:  2007.07.27
PAGE:  A4 (ILLUS)
BYLINE:  TIM SHUFELT
SECTION:  National News 
EDITION:  Metro
DATELINE: 
WORDS:  465
WORD COUNT:  425

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIR FORCE Forces relax vision standards for new pilots Cockpit now open to those who need glasses or contacts, but critics say the move is simply to fill a recruiting shortage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TIM SHUFELT The Canadian Air Force is lowering its minimum standards for vision, opening the cockpit to those traditionally disqualified for needing glasses or contact lenses.

The Department of National Defence said the policy change was prompted by an independent scientific study and has nothing to do with the military's personnel shortage.

Liberal foreign affairs critic Ujjal Dosanjh said he doesn't completely buy that.

"I suspect this is more related to the fact that we're finding it difficult to recruit as many new people into the military as this government promised," Mr. Dosanjh said. "Therefore, the requirements are being eased." Air Force spokesman Lieutenant Paul Finnemore, however, said the restriction on bespectacled pilots dated to the Second World War, and had no scientific grounding.

The study, commissioned by Defence Research and Development Canada, shows that pilots who need glasses or contacts for modest vision correction can safely operate military aircraft.

One military analyst said the announcement reflects a further watering down of the standards of fitness required to enlist in the Canadian Forces.

As of last October, applicants who fail the basic physical fitness test are no longer rejected, but turned over to trainers until they are whipped into shape before beginning basic training.

"So now you can get a 300-pound guy who can barely see," said Scott Taylor, publisher of the military affairs magazine Esprit de Corps.

He also predicts a deterioration of the image of the combat pilot as an elite hotshot. "That's what it's been in the past: 'Be all you can be.' Now it's: 'Be all you can muster.' " Lt. Finnemore insisted the air force is not under the same recruiting pressures as much of the Canadian Forces, and this year's target remains unchanged at 70 to 80 new pilots.

It's not clear how much the pool of aspiring aviators will increase, he said, but it is possible the new policy could open the floodgates to a rush of applicants, including many military insiders who previously accepted their near-sighted plights and settled for jobs on the ground.

Local recruiting centres across the country are prepared to deal with a surge in applications, and the increased competition will benefit the air force, Lt. Finnemore said.

Those with corrected vision already qualify as commercial pilots in Canada and the United States.

Having undergone laser-eye surgery will still disqualify hopefuls from the air force, however. But that could soon change as well once continuing studies into the procedure are completed, Lt. Finnemore said.

The U.S. Air Force, on the other hand, announced in May it would begin considering applicants who have had laser surgery to meet the minimum vision requirements.

After further research, the USAF will decide whether to revise its other vision standards.



It might be difficult to recruit, but it never has been hard to fill the pilot spots.

As for Mr Taylor's remarks, it smacks of someone who is bitter that they couldn't make the cut for the trade (Not that he ever tried.  That's just what it sounds like.).

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

"I suspect this is more related to the fact that we're finding it difficult to recruit as many new people into the military as this government promised," .... "Therefore, the requirements are being eased." 

Pfffff. Yes, there is very little competition right now; it has been a cake walk thus far. In fact, they were begging me to ink the offer from the moment I said "Pilot". The Recruiters were fighting over me like used car salesmen. :

"So now you can get a 300-pound guy who can barely see," said Scott Taylor, publisher of the military affairs magazine Esprit de Corps.

MmmmHmmm. Literally tons of applicants who have cadet experience, degrees/aviation diplomas, hours of flying, various ratings/experience, who volunteer with various organizations and served in the Reserves for X amount of years but the CF decided instead to enroll the Homer Simpsons and Jim 'Wash Out' Pfaffenbach's of Canada.

Just did the vision acuity test today and I had quite the interesting conversation with the Opthalmologist on this very subject but, I'll just hang on to that. I think it is going to bring a lot of really good applications the CF's way (not that they didn't already have them!). Again, good luck to those who are going to apply.

 

[DaveTee]

I've applied to be a pilot recently. Just asking something that popped up on this thread in a side note. A few posts mentioned applicants with previous flight experience or even pilots licences prior to applying. My question is does someone with very limited flight experience (I did the glider program with cadets, but broke my finger 10 flights away from finishing and got sent home) have a chance against applicants who already hold full fledged certifications and licences?

 

[kincanucks]

I've applied to be a pilot recently. Just asking something that popped up on this thread in a side note. A few posts mentioned applicants with previous flight experience or even pilots licences prior to applying. My question is does someone with very limited flight experience (I did the glider program with cadets, but broke my finger 10 flights away from finishing and got sent home) have a chance against applicants who already hold full fledged certifications and licences?

Experience in recruiting has shown me that previous flying experience/certification is not a guarantee to being selected for pilot and sometimes it can be a hindrance, as the applicant thinks they know too much.  Good Luck.

 

[ROBERTTT]

Hello, I want to start by thanking all board moderators and all other regular folk who take the time to answer questions from guys like me.

So here is my story, I'll try to keep it short:

I am a 29 year old DEO applicant with choice  1.Pilot  2.Anav
I went to Trenton for ACS in June 07, passed both Pilot and Anav exams then to Toronto where medicals were also fine.

I have a Private pilot’s license, few years of working experience in the aviation industry, along with a well balanced extra curricular/volunteer background.

Few days ago I received a call from the selection officer, which conducted my interview several months ago, and asked if I would take Anav, since my file/officer score is below the current minimums for Pilot. Obviously extremely surprised as I had already been recommended by her for the position after my interview, I asked why, and she said that last month the score for Pilots had been drastically raised. As it stands now, I have been selected for Anav and will receive another call with the details (it seems that sept course at St Jean is full)

Can anyone of you in the recruiting community explain to me what the h**l is going on regarding the current pilot scores (there are still 20 DEO positions left) and how is it possible to jerk an applicant like that around? Once I have been selected and merit listed, shouldn't it be based on whatever the requirements were when I applied and when I was recommended, we are talking a few months ago not years? And if the score has changed then isn't it logical that it should affect applicants from that point onward? How is it possible that an applicant that has a university degree, flying experience and a Pilots license, passed both the Pilot and Anav exams at ACS in Trenton as well as the medicals in Toronto and still does not get selected???????

Now, I am not sure what to do, if I should take Anav or try to raise my file score for pilot. If I would have failed Trenton or had trouble with medicals or there was no more positions left- that I can accept, but how do I accept that I passed everything and my file score was strong enough to be selected last month and suddenly its not any more?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[George Wallace]

If I may; you are an applicant.  An applicant for a job.  It is not a "right".  Like any job, the "employer" will set the 'prerequisites' and has the 'right' to change them.  You are not entitled to become a pilot in the CF.  It is a job like any other.  You must apply and meet their prerequisites, and those prerequisites may change with the amount of applicants.  The "employer" after all wants to hire only the best of all the applicants.  If you can't beat out all the others, because the standards have risen in proportion to the number of applicants versus positions, then there is not much you can do or say to change things.

 

[kincanucks]

Sucks to be you.  Take ANAV or wait and apply for PILOT later or go and apply somewhere else.

 

[weiss]

May I speculate here too.  If you have options other than pilot you will never be offered pilot's "job".  I can understand recruiter's position on this - if the guy can settle for something else than so be it.  There are enough applicants who will never settle for anything else, so if they are not offered pilot's seat they are lost for CF altogether. That way they can hire more people with less trouble and fill less popular trades.  No reason to be upset - you are the one who wanted airnav, not the recruiter, its not like they force you into anything.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

Can anyone of you in the recruiting community explain to me what the h**l is going on regarding the current pilot scores (there are still 20 DEO positions left)

Well, there are only 20 spots available and it is early in the year. Second, they lowered vision requirements for Pilots from V1 to V2. They are probably going to receive more Pilot applications than they did in previous years. It just makes sense, for now, to set the bar high and allow the applications accumulate so that they can select the best possible candidates for those 20 spots.

 

[Elwood]

Hey Roberttt,

I totally know how that feels, man. I just declined an offer for amroured officer to keep going for pilot. An MCC warned me that I was a few points shy of being competitive for the pilot MOC and that I should just join now and transfer out of the army later.

I agree that it would feel a lot better being cut at ACS or during the medicals than finding out that you're fit and have the aptitude to pass CF pilot training, but were just a couple interview points short from being selected. If it feels any better for you, two CEOTP candidates on my ASC got offers for pilot, whereas the two DEO's did not. I guess they had an edge because they were fresh out of air cadets, whereas us DEOs were spending most of our time studying in university. It's funny too, because I see a couple CEOTP applicants who got pilot, but often place poorly-written posts on this forum.

I guess people in our situation can really just change our only choice to pilot, do an updated interview, and see what happens.     

 

[Astrodog]

I agree that it would feel a lot better being cut at ACS or during the medicals than finding out that you're fit and have the aptitude to pass CF pilot training, but were just a couple interview points short from being selected.

Are you f'n nuts? Why would it feel better having NO chance rather than having an opportunity to quit complaining and do what it takes to get your ass in a CF seat?? I got rejected TWICE before I got in, and not once did I bitch about the system. I got right back on the saddle to try and figure out how the hell I get in.

I guess they had an edge because they were fresh out of air cadets, whereas us DEOs were spending most of our time studying in university.

Oh yeah, that must be it... I think they'll probably let them bypass BFT too because they have glider training! I'm pretty sure more time in university gives you a higher score in the matrix, whether you maximized your time at university by getting involved in extra-curricular stuff that the CF is looking for is your problem.

It's funny too, because I see a couple CEOTP applicants who got pilot, but often place poorly-written posts on this forum.

No comment.

  The long and the short of it is that these are coveted seats; it would take a civi his entire career to get a seat on a C-17, I know a fellow who just got a seat out of the pipeline. The CF has every RIGHT to maximize the utility of those they put in their seats. If you didn't get in you have to choices: Shut up and move on or Shut up and make yourself better.
     

 

[Remius]

For Elwood and Robertt.  Why did you put in armoured or air nav as a choice if you never intended on taking those choices in the first place?  And don't put too much stock in your University studies.  It takes a lot more than a degree in criminology or business admin to fly a plane.  Maybe those "air cadets" demonstrated better leadership qualities and presented themselves better at the interview than you did.  Maybe they scored higher on the CFAT and did better at ASC than you did showing more potential to be a pilot.  While your degree is good it is not the be all end all to be an officer in the CF much less a pilot.  Instead of focusing on what the "others" have or don't have and focus on yourselves maybe you'll do better next time.

Good luck.

 

[medaid]

If it feels any better for you, two CEOTP candidates on my ASC got offers for pilot, whereas the two DEO's did not. I guess they had an edge because they were fresh out of air cadets, whereas us DEOs were spending most of our time studying in university. It's funny too, because I see a couple CEOTP applicants who got pilot, but often place poorly-written posts on this forum.

Elwood... seeing your background info... We're not too different. I too came from Air Cadets, and I too did sometime in a PRes Med Unit before I became an officer. So... as a fellow brother officer who shares so much with you, let me tell you one thing. Please stop talking out of your AXX, as you have just proven to the rest of the forum, and indeed most of the CF, that DEO applicants who got pilot, often place poorly-written posts on this forum as well.

And... PUH LEASE... don't pull that DEO's are toooooo busy crap. As Crantor said, if you CAN'T manage your time and do some extra stuff on the side? [In Mock Horror] I can't imagine how we PRes officers ever find the time to study AND serve at the same time! 

There's also a reason why you were given 2nd and 3rd choices on your application. Because you might not get your first choice, as I always tell my applicants, please think about what else you want to do. Because failing THAT, you might just get 2nd or 3rd. Think hard. THINK!!!

 

[mudrecceman]

For Elwood and Robertt.  Why did you put in armoured or air nav as a choice if you never intended on taking those choices in the first place?  And don't put too much stock in your University studies.  It takes a lot more than a degree in criminology or business admin to fly a plane.  Maybe those "air cadets" demonstrated better leadership qualities and presented themselves better at the interview than you did.  Maybe they scored higher on the CFAT and did better at ASC than you did showing more potential to be a pilot.  While your degree is good it is not the be all end all to be an officer in the CF much less a pilot.  Instead of focusing on what the "others" have or don't have and focus on yourselves maybe you'll do better next time.

Good luck.

IMHO, nothing else needs to be said on this one...sums it up nicely.

Look in the mirror folks.  Point the finger at THAT person...not the CF.

 

[ROBERTTT]

OK guys, since I started the post, I have been carefully reading all replies, but it seems no one quite knows what's going on.

In this case let me give you a quick heads up.

The Pilot trade is currently closed at least for DEO; closed as in no new applications are being accepted at all. There are plenty already in the system. And to make matters worse, like I had already said in my first post, the entry minimum score (i.e. you need at least that score to be merit listed) has been drastically raised.

Since no one hit the nail on the head, I will explain the score differential I am talking about: NOTE (this is only for DEO applicants)

------> The entry minimum score (i.e. you need at least that score to be merit listed) for DEO Pilot applicants has been drastically raised, how much you ask, by 40%. Yes that's right, 40%. Now for those who still don't see how much of a difference that is, here is an EXAMPLE. (I will not use the real score numbers as they are not for public knowledge)

SAY before the score change the minimum needed to be merit listed was 120 total points for the DEO pilot trade (144 for ANAV) (file score -- aptitude test, ACS, medical, interview etc.) Now after the change...... you need 168 total points for DEO Pilot trade!!! (Keep in mind that average score of all merit listed DEO pilot applicants is say about 132). And Yes for those who did notice above, the min score for Pilot was way lower then that for Anav.

My score was above the average for pilot (i have been selected for Anav) however lower then the CURRENT pilot minimum.

To sum up the reason scores have been raised is because Borden wants try and reduce the current, at least 1 year waiting time period, training backlog.

I hope this information really serves as a heads up for all current pilot applicants.

merit listed (definition) -- meaning your file is complete and you have met minimum requirements for the position and have been added to a list with all other applicants who are all ready for selection. So say there are 3 available spots for that trade, however there are 5 applicants on the merit list. So at time of selection the selection officer will pick the top 3 scoring applicants of the 5 merit listed. 

 

[mudrecceman]

Maybe the CF has a bigger requirement to fill ANAV slots.

So they have to "funnel" people to where they are needed.

Remember, in the big picture, they have to do a big balancing act with aircrew trades like all other trades.

Tanks can't roll without qualified and trained commanders.

Seakings don't fly with just pilots alone.

Could be as simple as that...

 

[BC Old Guy]

Yes, there has been direction to restrict pilot intake, since we have 20 or fewer positions available for enrolment.  The recruiting centres have been given very specific guidelines for starting the process on new applicants.  There are a number of other Air Force operations jobs available, such as Air Nav and AEC.  Each have specific requirements, which some people meet, and others don't. 

As well, there is a need for officers in a number of other occupations - including Artillery, Armoured, Signals, Navy (MARS) and Infantry amongst others.

Obviously, the people who made the decision to change the requirements expect that we will be able to fill the training vacancies with the new requirements.  If something happens so that the remaining target is not filled, it will not be hard to revise the requirments again, and fill the remaining Pilot target.  I have 14 Pilots that are Merit Listed for enrolment.  4 have offers, and will be enrolled for the Sep courses.  Another 4 could have been hired on the current and previous scoring guidelines, but don't meet all the current requirements - which go beyond a simple score.  With 500+ applications in the system, I expect the other CFRCs have the same distribution of people who want to become pilots and would be very good pilots (at least in our opinion), but there just aren't enough Pilot jobs for everyone who wants this occupation. 

I don't think this will change next year - but I've been wrong before.

The Recruiting Centre wants you to have a job, that's why the staff are trying to see what else you are interested in, and what your education and aptitudes indicate would be a good fit. 

Hope this helps. 

 

[ROBERTTT]

Thank you for clearing the topic and answering my question.

I wish my application had gone via CFRC Vancouver. 

In order to have received a concise answer as such, from my local CFRC, I feel I would have had to bribe people. ;D (pun intended)

Thank you once again!

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

If one is merit listed but not selected in 2007 and he or she intends on applying for Pilot again in 2008, is it simply a matter of reapplying and updating their interview in 2008?(provided of course, that his or her medical is still valid.) Or would it be handled differently?