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Thanks for the responses gents. I don't need an 'easy button' Zoomie, but I would prefer to avoid the 'total demoralization' button of over-extended OJT.
CivCon
CivCon
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aesop081
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Civilian Convert said:
You will have plenty of company. New pilot OJT just arrived at my Sqn from doing PFT and has around 18 months to wait with us til its time for Moose Jaw.
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Guys - the CF is all about ups and downs. We must all collectively grin and bear it. I just graduated a Multi-Engine pilot a couple of months ago and posted him to Comox to fly the Aurora. As soon as he arrived he was told don't worry about flying anything for a bit, you're off to learn how to fly UAVs. Real bummer for him - 2+ years in the training mill and denied an operational flying tour until after playing flight sim in the desert for a bit.
Take home message - everyone gets the smelly end of the stick from time to time.
Take home message - everyone gets the smelly end of the stick from time to time.
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It still sucks to spend 2-3 years doing something you do not do once you're qualified.
Hi, I applied for ROTP civi University 2011-2012 in May and I want to be a military pilot. I'm currently doing a meteorology in Montréal and doing my civilian commercial pilot "training". My written exam is already done and I'm very close to having the hours to do the flight test and I could apply for the licence by the end of the summer.
I asked the question in the "Zero pilots" thread and talked for a while to a very helping recruiter this morning at Montréal CFRC, but I could not get a definite answer: Should I get my civilian CPL or not? I guess a CPL is somehow a good thing to have on your application, but here are my two reasons why I'm not sure I should apply for the license:
- If I fail ACS, I will have to get the next level of licensing to be allowed to take ACS again in the following years. When you already have the CPL, do you need then to get the ATPL, or is adding an instrument or instructor rating good enough to try again?
- Also, let's say everything works very well for me and I get to the pilot formation, if I have my CPL, I have to skip PFT and go right through BFT right? Is it possible to choose to get the PFT anyway?
I would not mind at all spending a longer time in OJT in order to do PFT, since I don't feel having a CPL necessarily makes you good enough to go right through BFT.
Wether I get my CPL or not, I will continue to fly in order to aquire news skills, try new aircrafts and become more and more precise.
Thank you all.
I asked the question in the "Zero pilots" thread and talked for a while to a very helping recruiter this morning at Montréal CFRC, but I could not get a definite answer: Should I get my civilian CPL or not? I guess a CPL is somehow a good thing to have on your application, but here are my two reasons why I'm not sure I should apply for the license:
- If I fail ACS, I will have to get the next level of licensing to be allowed to take ACS again in the following years. When you already have the CPL, do you need then to get the ATPL, or is adding an instrument or instructor rating good enough to try again?
- Also, let's say everything works very well for me and I get to the pilot formation, if I have my CPL, I have to skip PFT and go right through BFT right? Is it possible to choose to get the PFT anyway?
I would not mind at all spending a longer time in OJT in order to do PFT, since I don't feel having a CPL necessarily makes you good enough to go right through BFT.
Wether I get my CPL or not, I will continue to fly in order to aquire news skills, try new aircrafts and become more and more precise.
Thank you all.
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trampbike said:
My personal recommendation to you is, no you should not. Mostly for the reasons that you have already stipulated. Extra ratings do not count, if you have a CPL already you will need to get your ATPL (1500+ hours, etc) in order to try again.
PFT is a necessary evil when it comes to military aviation - it establishes the correct mindset for proceeding on to BFT.
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Zoomie said:
This. :nod:
Folks will argue about whether they were helped by having a CPL or not, but it increases the chances of learning things differently than how the military want you to learn them, and the military evaluates/selects not only by performance, but by time required to get to that level of performance. That's the clincher, if you have an ingrained behaviour/performance pattern you picked up through your CPL training that is at odds with facilitating your learning and performance in the military aviation environment, that's a negative. My Phase II BFT course in Moose Jaw had a trial cadre of CPL guys on it who skipped Phase I PFT. To a man, they commented how different the expectations were in military training than from the Seneca's, Mount Royal's, Canador's. Statistically, their pass rate was the same as those without CPLs who had gone through Phase I in Portage, so at least then, there was no discernible advantage to having a CPL.
Cheers
G2G
Zoomie said:
Exactly why I'm reluctant getting my CPL. I want to do PFT. Plus, there is a huge margin between CPL and ATPL, so I'm now quite convinced I should not get my CPL now. If something goes wrong at ACS, at least it'll be just a flight test before I get the CPL, so I would be ready for the next year.
Hey dude,
absolutely do not get your CPL before you attend ASC. I just got back from ASC a little over a month ago, and let me tell you, it's no walk in the park (especially the last session). 3/4 failed including me. It was very devastating, but It's not really a problem for me because I'm already booked for my PPL lessons and will pass it next year.
By the way, I'm also from Montreal, if you feel like going for a coffee or something and chatting about aircrew selection, I can give you some really KEY advice about what to expect on those simulator sessions.
Cheers,
Snyper
absolutely do not get your CPL before you attend ASC. I just got back from ASC a little over a month ago, and let me tell you, it's no walk in the park (especially the last session). 3/4 failed including me. It was very devastating, but It's not really a problem for me because I'm already booked for my PPL lessons and will pass it next year.
By the way, I'm also from Montreal, if you feel like going for a coffee or something and chatting about aircrew selection, I can give you some really KEY advice about what to expect on those simulator sessions.
Cheers,
Snyper
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SupersonicMax said:
About the guy who went from Multi school to UAVs, I know him and have been talking to him about this. He hasn't done the Aurora MOAT yet so really, is he qualified based on the squadron's viewpoint?
With a bit of waiting involved to get on MOAT anyways, getting a deployment out of the way isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some people will have....shall we say "reservations" about "playing flight sim in the desert", but as Eurowing said, that unit does save lives.
...and as Forrest Gump said, that's all I have to say about that.
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Good point, Dimsum!
There's "new wing grad" and then there's "OTU/type-qualified." There can be a while before you get to the OTU, and then it typically takes several months to qualify on type, before which you are not operationally employable in the pilot MOSID at your respective unit. All I'll say is that when a UAV-driver gets to shake hands with and be thanked in real life by someone that was months before only a little glowing blob on a screen that needed help....well, life/job/work doesn't get much more rewarding than that. Folks shouldn't poo poo UAVs as "uncool", "not sexy", whatever...there are a bunch of guys and gals who very much appreciated (and owe their lives to) the UAV folks!
Cheers
G2G
There's "new wing grad" and then there's "OTU/type-qualified." There can be a while before you get to the OTU, and then it typically takes several months to qualify on type, before which you are not operationally employable in the pilot MOSID at your respective unit. All I'll say is that when a UAV-driver gets to shake hands with and be thanked in real life by someone that was months before only a little glowing blob on a screen that needed help....well, life/job/work doesn't get much more rewarding than that. Folks shouldn't poo poo UAVs as "uncool", "not sexy", whatever...there are a bunch of guys and gals who very much appreciated (and owe their lives to) the UAV folks!
Cheers
G2G
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I never said it's not a job that is appreciated, however from an aviator point of view, it's not what I would want to do on my first tour (or second, third.....)
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I might be wrong, but that statement comes across as "It's beneath me". I know "aviators" who have come back to do second tours here. I sense it is just not a "cool job" to some. Too bad, but I guess the airshow circuit is more fun, if not as rewarding.SupersonicMax said:
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
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Well you could put that spin on it, but that might not necessarily be the right spin.
I had 2 platforms I could have went to, Aurora's or Sea Kings...and I did NOT want to go Sea King. Not because it was beneath me, I just didn't want to fly in choppers off the back of frigates.
I know guys in the Armoured Corps who are only really interested in tanks. They don't think Recce is beneath them...they just aren' t that interested in it.
Thats the "sping" I put on it; SSM just isn't interested in UAVs, same as I am not interested in Sea Kings or Cyclones.
Cheers.
I had 2 platforms I could have went to, Aurora's or Sea Kings...and I did NOT want to go Sea King. Not because it was beneath me, I just didn't want to fly in choppers off the back of frigates.
I know guys in the Armoured Corps who are only really interested in tanks. They don't think Recce is beneath them...they just aren' t that interested in it.
Thats the "sping" I put on it; SSM just isn't interested in UAVs, same as I am not interested in Sea Kings or Cyclones.
Cheers.
A
aesop081
Guest
eurowing said:
Its not about the aishows either. I have thus far had no interest in UAVs because i remustered in order to actualy be flying in something. You know, be in the air, doing my job.
Do i know AVOs and POs that want to go back a second time ? I sure do. Will i be interested in the future ? Quite possibly.
It was never a question of being "beneath me" so you can just stop painting the rest of us as just a bunch of show offs who only seek the airshow crowds.
As far as being rewarding, that is something not limited to UAVs in Afghanistan. You may not know it but there are other things going on in the world. Some of the flights in my logbook were quite rewarding thanks.
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Actually, EITS you may be right, I just woke up and can't get back to sleep after only 4 hrs and another 12 hr shift looms.
I guess that might make me less likely to be charitable in my view. Apologies for being cranky old guy.
I have always liked the challenge of new jobs. Naval Res, to Artillery, to Air Force and a bunch of platforms to work on and fly in. Favorite was the F5, least fave was the F18. I just don't see F-18's doing anything overseas in the near future and can't fathom why anyone would NOT want to be here, especially when it is a short time operational tour. I had to release from the CF to come to Afghanistan after unsuccessful applications for 3 highly sought after positions available to my rank and trade.
Going to try to go back to sleep.
I guess that might make me less likely to be charitable in my view. Apologies for being cranky old guy.
I have always liked the challenge of new jobs. Naval Res, to Artillery, to Air Force and a bunch of platforms to work on and fly in. Favorite was the F5, least fave was the F18. I just don't see F-18's doing anything overseas in the near future and can't fathom why anyone would NOT want to be here, especially when it is a short time operational tour. I had to release from the CF to come to Afghanistan after unsuccessful applications for 3 highly sought after positions available to my rank and trade.
Going to try to go back to sleep.
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aesop081
Guest
eurowing said:
Beleive me i would love to. I would much prefer to do it with my current airframe.
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At the moment, the TACP is about the only place fast air drivers have as a reliable means of getting into theatre. That said, a fast air guy is coming in as the next JTF-A Air Wing Comd soon, so there are other positions that come up from time to time.
I took SSM's statement at face value that HE was not interested in being an AVO/PO. Nothing wrong with that, and I respect the personal sentiment. However, I have lots of buds who have done the job and they found it very rewarding. While it might not have been #1 on my list of things to do either (as it wasn't on many of theirs), I would likely have still done it if asked ('t'asked) and have likely found the experience as rewarding as my friends.
That said, in several communities other than fast air (and LRP), there are numerous opportunities to get in the sand box directly, so AVO/PO might not appeal to those guys who have a high probability of deploying in their primary (by a/c type) duties.
Cheers
G2G
I took SSM's statement at face value that HE was not interested in being an AVO/PO. Nothing wrong with that, and I respect the personal sentiment. However, I have lots of buds who have done the job and they found it very rewarding. While it might not have been #1 on my list of things to do either (as it wasn't on many of theirs), I would likely have still done it if asked ('t'asked) and have likely found the experience as rewarding as my friends.
That said, in several communities other than fast air (and LRP), there are numerous opportunities to get in the sand box directly, so AVO/PO might not appeal to those guys who have a high probability of deploying in their primary (by a/c type) duties.
Cheers
G2G
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