Soldiers accused of stealing from fellow CF members

[Sythen]

Summary Trials are seldom done in front of anyone except those involved.

I've literally watched dozens of summary trials (and have done the hatless dance myself) and there has always been an audience. It was always explained that the purpose of the audience was so that everyone could watch and understand military justice in action, and so there would be no rumours.

 

[Snaketnk]

I have a similar experience to Sythen; however I've witnessed fewer. Also haven't been the hatless one myself.

 

[Franko]

Unit members weren't there to see the trial?

Most venues are the OC/ CO's office for Summary Trials. Can't fit a whole lot of troops in there.

Regards

 

[OldSolduer]

I was Assisting Officer for a MCpl. She was hatless but was allowed to sit through the trial due to a broken ankle. For some reason or another she couldn't march....

 

[Pusser]

I believe the right to a public trial actually dates back to the Magna Carta.  Although many folks would prefer as few people as possible see their dirty linen being aired, the principle of public trials is to prevent the application of Star Chamber (i.e. secret) justice.  In other words, public trials keep the system honest.  I would argue that many Summary Trials are held in small venues because it is not anticipated that larger ones are necessary.  It would be interesting to see what would happen if the accused were to ask for a larger venue in order to ensure all his friends could attend.

In my experience in ships, they're usually held in the Main Cafeteria - lots of room.

 

[Brutus]

10 years ago, I may have fallen on the 'vigilante justice' side of the argument. Now, being a smidgen more wise than back then, I completely disagree with it.

I believe underhanded solutions such as leaders asking troops to 'sort him out' only further encourages would-be offenders as it shows a lack of faith in the CFs ability to police their members. If that fool assumes the 'Wise Old Sgt' has no faith that the system can punish the guilty, he will likely assume that HE will not be punished if he steps over the line.

Aside from all of that, how can we ask young troops to abide by all of the rules, yet condone breaking the rules to punish others who break the rules? If that sentence is confusing, imagine how confusing it is to a new recruit.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Most venues are the OC/ CO's office for Summary Trials. Can't fit a whole lot of troops in there.

Regards

What DPk said. I've 'attended' quite a few, throughout my career, in one sort of capacity or another and they've always taken place in these confines.

Except one, that seemed to be attended by an inordinate amount of Infantry officers.


edit to add second line

 

[john10]

OK I see. The only one I'm personally aware of took place in front of the whole platoon during BMQ.

 

[Brutus]

I have attended only one in 14 years (not mine!), and it was in a room large enough for the entire Unit.

EDIT: I have attended 2 - the other was in a school soccer field during forest firefighting ops in BC.

 

[gun plumber]

I recently attended one that was mandatory for all members of the unit in our regimental theater. We were told it was for PD purposes.

 

[garb811]

Under ordinary circumstances, Summary Trials must be open to spectators.

QR&Os, CHAPTER 108 - SUMMARY PROCEEDINGS

108.28 – WHO MAY BE PRESENT AT A SUMMARY TRIAL

(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), summary trials shall be public and, to the extent that accommodation permits, members of the public, military and civilian, shall be permitted to attend the proceedings as spectators.

(2) The officer presiding at a summary trial may direct that the public be excluded during the trial or any part of the trial where the presiding officer considers it to be in the interests of justice and discipline, public safety, defence or public morals.

(3) Except for those with an appropriate security clearance and a need to know, members of the public shall be excluded from those portions of a summary trial where classified information will be given in evidence.

(4) Any direction made under this article shall be recorded in a minute to be signed by the officer presiding at the summary trial and attached to the Record of Disciplinary Proceedings.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Under ordinary circumstances, Summary Trials must be open to spectators.

QR&Os, CHAPTER 108 - SUMMARY PROCEEDINGS

I don't think anyone is arguing that. I'm simply saying that any I've been involved in were held in small offices with only the principles involved. Others have had different experiences.

YMMV

 

[daftandbarmy]

10 years ago, I may have fallen on the 'vigilante justice' side of the argument. Now, being a smidgen more wise than back then, I completely disagree with it.

I believe underhanded solutions such as leaders asking troops to 'sort him out' only further encourages would-be offenders as it shows a lack of faith in the CFs ability to police their members. If that fool assumes the 'Wise Old Sgt' has no faith that the system can punish the guilty, he will likely assume that HE will not be punished if he steps over the line.

Aside from all of that, how can we ask young troops to abide by all of the rules, yet condone breaking the rules to punish others who break the rules? If that sentence is confusing, imagine how confusing it is to a new recruit.

You ordered the Code Red!

The only time I've seen troops start to take things into their own hands is when the system of military justice is inefficient or clearly messed up in some way. As always, when leaders at all levels do their jobs right, things tend to work right. When they don't, all hell can break loose.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!"

I know "everyone" was allowed to be there but circumstances made it so that only a select few officers and very senior NCMs (read, RSM) were able to fit in the large conference room that my summary trial was held in.  I heard murmurs from the troops that they were told there was "no room available" for them.  Though I am not sure that the information as to when and where the trial was being held was passed on either...  In the end, I did get to change my rank slipons in the RSM's office, away from the troops. This results in me still being called Sgt and getting yelled at in the cpl's mess by the people that aren't yet in the loop!!

There were procedural errors in the laying of my original charges as well, I had been lined up to go to court martial when the charges were dropped by the prosecution for the reason that the person who laid the charge was NOT on the list of authorised charge layers.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There were procedural errors in the laying of my original charges as well, I had been lined up to go to court martial when the charges were dropped by the prosecution for the reason that the person who laid the charge was NOT on the list of authorised charge layers.

And thus, the reason I don't think we should try to make these activities spectator sports: sometimes they're really screwed up goat rodeos!

 

[Pusser]

And thus, the reason I don't think we should try to make these activities spectator sports: sometimes they're really screwed up goat rodeos!

Although justice must be done, it must also be seen to be done.  In theory, a public trial protects the accused from being railroaded and forces the system to have its ducks in a row.  A summary trial that is effectively closed could be cause for complaint.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Pusser, very much so.  If all my witnesses to the summary trial decided to band together and say "that never happend" in regards to my request for review, then I'd be royally screwed.

 

[john10]

It's none of my business, but I'm curious, what do they allege you did to deserve the demotion?

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Well, as of 15:30 local I have returned to the rank of Sgt.  I was found guilty of NDA 83 Disobeying a lawful command.  I have instead received a fine of $2500 and a reprimand.

 

[Old Sweat]

Congrats. Is that finding open to appeal? Can you get a posting to get a fresh start?