Spiritual Issues

[vonGarvin]

Look at the history of conflict, and try to convince me that religions are not one of the main causes of wars.

OK, here goes:
(I'll only go back to 1900, in an exhaustive list, but will talk about noteworthy wars before that)
1904 - 1905 Russo-Japanese War
1905            Russian Revolution of 1905
1910 - 1920 Mexican Revolution
1911 - 1912 Chinese Revolution
1914 - 1918 World War I
1912 - 1913 Balkan Wars
1916 Easter Rising (Easter Rebellion)
1917 Russian Revolution of 1917
1917 - 1920 Russian Civil War
1919 Spartacus Revolt
1919 - 1921 Irish War of Independence
1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
1922, October March on Rome
1926 - 1929 Cristero Rebellion (Peasants rose up, resisting the government's crack down on the Roman Catholic Church)
1932 - 1935 Chaco War
1936 - 1939 Spanish Civil War
1937 - 1945 Second Sino-Japanese War
1939 - 1945 World War II
1945 - 1991 Cold War
1948 - 1949 First Arab-Israeli War
1950 - 1953 Korean War
1954 - 1975 Vietnam War
1956 Second Arab-Israeli War
1956 Hungarian Revolution
1956 - 1959 Cuban Revolution
1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion
1967 Third Arab-Israeli War
1968 Prague Spring
1970 Black September
1973 Yom Kippur War
(also called October War, Ramadan War, or Fourth Arab-Israeli War)
1980 - 1988 Iran-Iraq War
1982 Falkland Islands War
1982 Fifth Arab-Israeli War
1990 - 1991 Persian Gulf War
1992 - 1995 Bosnian War
1994 Rwanda Genocide
2003 Iraq War


Of all these wars, only one is a truly "religious" war in terms of its cause.  Some may offer that the Arab-Israeli wars are religious in nature, but they are more about power than spreading one's religion or stopping another's. 
Religious Wars:

1562 - 1598 The French Wars of Religion
1618 - 1648 Thirty Years' War (Started as another bout between Catholics and Protestants)
1095 - 1291 The Crusades. 

So, in the 20th Century, we have a whole list of wars.  One is a religious war.  Others "may" be considered that, as one looks at Ireland, for example, and think of it as a religious war.  Now, granted, one side had Catholics and the other Protestants, but they weren't attacking people for their allegiance to Pope or Archbishop. 

But I would offer that the main causes of war are greed and lust for power.  Even if we caled the current war on terror and stuff that's happening in Afghanistan as a "religious" war, then greed and lust for power still "win" by a large margin. 

We can attempt to blame religion as a main cause of war, but if so, we are sadly mistaken.

 

[Jungle]

Technoviking, you're probably right; but I think you are over simplifying things.

If everybody in Israel was a muslim, there would be no problem no matter their origin. If everybody in Northern Ireland were protestant, there probably would have not been a republican movement. If everybody in Bosnia had been a muslim, there would have been no Krajina, and no massacre in Srebrenica.

But all this is hypothetical... we can all believe what we want. I still think there has been too much manipulation from all religions. Look at how the majority of educated people walk away from religion in Western countries... churches in the province of Québec are near a crisis, and it is likely a lot of them will have to close soon. Most of them were built by priests abusing the local population anyway, built by men who had to work all day in their fields, then give time to work on the church to "earn their way to paradise" (old Québec saying: gagner son ciel); a lot of the building materials and money were "given" by local merchants for the same reason.

 

[vonGarvin]

Technoviking, you're probably right; but I think you are over simplifying things.

Perhaps, but sometimes things are simple.  (I didn't quote the rest of your post because it wasn't on the current variation of this topic).
Anyway, to say that the Arab Israeli wars are purely religious in nature would as a wrong to say that religion weren't a factor at all.  But, as a driving element to make a war a purely religious war, and a main cause of wars, it an erroneous statement.  I'm reminded of a former facebook friend who one day went on a rant blaming religion for most wars.  I brought up a few select cases, such as WW2.  His response was "Hitler was a Catholic".  I stopped responding at that point, because if Hitler was a practicing Catholic, then I'm a monkey's uncle. 

Anyway, just pointing out a common misconception that religion is the cause of so many wars. 

 

[mariomike]

I brought up a few select cases, such as WW2.  His response was "Hitler was a Catholic".  I stopped responding at that point, because if Hitler was a practicing Catholic, then I'm a monkey's uncle. 
Anyway, just pointing out a common misconception that religion is the cause of so many wars.

I think with Hitler, it was mostly about property. Real estate. "Lebensraum" he called it. I would bet a loonie that most wars are. Nothing new about the idea.

 

[Ravanosh]

Thanks for those links Mariomike. I was having difficulty finding Chaplaincy threads with the forum search, and the two you referenced are very comprehensive.

A post that stood out in one of those threads included this quote: 

"I think on the whole people get into this profession (chaplain) to help people and further the cause of Good prevailing over Evil." - IN HOC SIGNO

These would be my reasons for joining the Chaplaincy, not for evangelism or the ministering of Catholic doctrine.

From the CF website: "Your primary function is to provide religious ministrations and spiritual ministry to all members of a Canadian Forces unit regardless of religious affiliation."

Based on this description, spirituality would be part of my focus as a Chaplain. Because of this, I have been trying to gauge the reaction of CF members to spiritual discussion thoughout this thread. I believe this is a valuable exercise, as it reveals how practical (or impractical) spiritual ministry would be in the CF.

Ravanosh,
This is perhaps one of the best pieces of advice I've seen for someone in all my years here. It's incredably insightful and I believe pegs you to a T.
Self stylising yourself as a Holy Crusader/Knight in shinning armor might not be the best approach for you entering into the CF.

The Paladin represents my role-model and reflects on my personality, nothing more. As for Nemecek's assesment being accurate, I would like to point out that his accusations are not entirely supported by the content of my posts. I profess very little, and I doubt that many would be able to determine my particular religious affiliation based on this thread had I not announced it overtly.

If you find my self-assured tone threatening I apologize. If I did not believe I was on the right path, my faith would be hollow. That being said I am open to other viewpoints. I must admit, however, that atheism seems flawed based on my analysis, as it implies that there is no real meaning to life beyond what we as humans assign to it. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Also, my attempts to generate interest in science that can verify a spiritual element to reality should not be misinterpreted as preaching. I would appreciate the opportunity to examine any science that contradicts my views.

That being said, I can provide more evidence in support of a spiritual viewpoint, provided the community is receptive to the idea.

 

[aesop081]

I must admit, however, that atheism seems flawed based on my analysis, as it implies that there is no real meaning to life. Correct me if I am mistaken.

No meaning to life ??

Let me tell you this. I live my life so that those people that follow me will have a better world to live in than i do.

Is that meaning enough for you ?

:

 

[Ravanosh]

No meaning to life ??

Let me tell you this. I live my life so that those people that follow me will have a better world to live in than i do.

Is that meaning enough for you ?

:

This is based on your personal code of ethics and has nothing to do with the concept of atheism in and of itself. Atheism implies that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it (I have modified my earlier post to clarify this).

That you have assigned your life such a commendable purpose is heartening. However, other atheists may not possess a similar moral foundation upon which to form their values.

 

[aesop081]

Atheism implies that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it.

...and what i have assigned to it is to make life better for those who come after me.

So it doesn indeed have meaning.

You said it implies there is no meaning to life and i just showe you that you were full of it.

 

[Ravanosh]

Atheism DOES imply that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it... because you chose to assign your life a great purpose dose not mean your fellow atheists will follow suit.

I am talking about the concept of atheism as a philosophy *in and of itself*.

 

[1feral1]

I am talking about the concept of atheism as a philosophy *in and of itself*.

Sir:

I've read your posts, and from what I gather, everything appears either over-philosophical, intensly evaluated, clinically extreme, theoretically challenged, or is somewhat an intense micro-analisation with you, all very dry at that.

What is your point you are actually trying to make? Are you some uni student doing a paper on something? Yes, and don't call me 'Grasshopper' 

Aspiring Paladin? Explain this one please?

Kindly respond using normal well rounded comprehendable atriculation of the engrish language, with a bit of flair rather than the extremly dehydrated tone, you might get a better more fulfilling response from me and others in the future.


Thanks, and regards,

EDITed for spelling....

 

[Ravanosh]

I've read your posts, and from what I gather, everything appears either over-philosophical, intensly evaluated, clinically extreme, theoretically challenged, or is somewhat an intense micro-analisation with you, all very dry at that.

What is your point you are actually trying to make? Are you some uni student doing a paper on something? Yes, and don't call me 'Grasshopper' 

Aspiring Paladin? Explain this one please?

Kindly respond using normal well rounded comprehendable atriculation of the engrish language, with a bit of flair rather than the extremly dehydrated tone, you might get a better more fulfilling response from me and others in the future.

I'll do my best, but short of repeating myself (which would necessitate reiterating my "dehydrated" tone) I am at a loss.

I have been trying to filter emotion from my posts to avoid conflicts. This may be the dehydrating factor  ;D

My intention is simply to engage in philosophical discusion with an emphasis on spirituality in order to determine if the Chaplaincy has any bearing in the CF as a spiritual institution.

I suppose one of the points I am trying to make is that there is more support for a spiritual viewpoint from the scientific community now than there was in the past.

I'm not writing a paper... and do I rearry need to exprain the Paladin thing again?

Yes? OK, fine  Aspiring Paladin, yeah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. People were taking offence to me using the title "Paladin" by itself, so I added the aspiring to indicate that I do not consider myself to be a "Paladin" but merely working towards that potential.

 

[1feral1]

My intention is simply to engage in philosophical discusion with an emphasis on spirituality in order to determine if the Chaplaincy has any bearing in the CF as a spiritual institution.

Got it.

You are up late, its only 1825 here Mon night.

My 2 bob on the Padre in theatre...

Looking back into my time in Iraq, the Padre came out from JTF 633 at Victory to visit, at least once a FN, in good times and bad he was always there. He was CofE (Ang), and conducted a multi faith service at whatever day it was(we had no visible minorities, just off the shelf typical Aussie larikin WASPs - infact in my entire time there never saw anything else but WASP Dinky Di's), of which only a few from the entire Combat Team would attend these services.

Many of us were tasked, whether it be on a mission outside the wire, a QRF, or strong point detail, or CP duty etc. I believe I attended once from CSM pressure, ha! Usually made myself scarce, but if I was in the Cove, he'd find me, just to pop in for a vist to myself and the lads. We always joked with him, and he was always well recieved.

He at one time blessed our ASLAVs, and us, and prayed for our safe return from the Badlands. He laughed at our St Michael - the name of our ASLAV, and the huge ball bag under the roo stencilled on the side. We always gave him the respect he both earned and deserved. He also lead the entire Team on 11 Nov 06, with many US and Coaltion guests, and was present for our dysfunctional Christmas dinner.

He assisted our lads with personal problems, and advised the chain of command if someone had the unfortunate circumstance to go home for reasons other an being wounded. He had a lot of pull for decision making like that. The Padre was there to support the lads for their mental health (especially after an incident which involved the taking of lives) and well being, and did an 11/10 job! The Padre even accompanied us on a mission well outside the wire one day.

According to Aussie legend a la Odd Angry Shot, he even had a 'wanking device' presented to him upon him leaving mid tour. Another one replaced him, although a different bloke, still cut from the same mold.

God Bless the Padre! Not an easy job, and he has a place within Army, any western army, including the CF..

Cheers,

CC

 

[KrazyHamburglar]

Atheism DOES imply that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it... because you chose to assign your life a great purpose dose not mean your fellow atheists will follow suit.

You choose to stay in your religion because it fits your view of life, basically, you assign a meaning to your life based on what you think is right and it
just happens that other people are thinking like you and decided one day to gather around a fire, sing kumbaya and call that a religion...
If you thaught that your religion was not suited to you, you would jump to something else (and a lot of people do...), choosing consciously a
meaning to your life.
What we choose as atheists is more or less the same, we choose our meaning of life just the same way... our horizons are just broader because we
don't have to adhere to any prescribed doctrine.

Remember that you are atheist of all other random gods in history... Mars, Ganesh, Zeus... we are just adding one more to the list...yours....

 

[vonGarvin]

What we choose as atheists is more or less the same, we choose our meaning of life just the same way... our horizons are just broader because we don't have to adhere to any prescribed doctrine.

I disagree that the assumption is that only those who believe in god* prescribe to a doctrine.  Hell, I know religious people who prescribe to no doctrine as a matter of faith.

Remember, atheist and religious folks believe something that cannot be proven (or disproven): the existence of god.  Agnostics are probably the only ones who believe neither side, and will wait to see what happens, I suppose.

Remember that you are atheist of all other random gods in history... Mars, Ganesh, Zeus... we are just adding one more to the list...yours....

You inadvertently bring up a point here.  In all of recorded human history, civilisations and even barbarians have believed in some sort of supreme being.  (Note that I didn't say all civilisations, but just in all of human history there are civilisations that do believe).  Whether one calls god God the Father, Allah, or even Great Spaghetti Monster, there is something there.  Is it some sort of divine a priori thought that we as humans have as a birthright?  It is just fables, stories and tall tales spread throughout?  I'm not sure which is which, but as I freely state, I am a practicing Roman Catholic (in spite of my education)  ;D).

As an aside, I take great issue with the assertion that only the religious can find meaning in life.  Whether one is atheist or not, we humans know that we are part of something special.  Whether it's an accident of time, space or physics, we are somehow part of something, and one doesn't have to believe in god to feel that way.  Think about it.  Everyone here has a mother and a father.  Some have siblings, and other still have children.  There is an unmistakable bond there that implies so much.  I believe that this goes, to varying degrees, to all across humanity.  So, atheist, religious or agnostic, we all share something and believe in something greater than us as individuals.

*god=non-denominational term for a supreme being or supreme beings.

 

[Redeye]

His response was "Hitler was a Catholic".  I stopped responding at that point, because if Hitler was a practicing Catholic, then I'm a monkey's uncle. 

Anyway, just pointing out a common misconception that religion is the cause of so many wars.

Hitler claimed many, many times to have been a Catholic, to revere Catholic imagery, etc.  And it's long been noted that the Vatican didn't do much to express dispproval of him nor or Mussolini's fascism.  That said, it really would appear that Hitler just harnessed religious imagery and ideas to suit his ends, he viewed the church as a tool to strengthen his own views and to cast himself as a greater man.

I note, interestingly, that many of the more religiously ignorant types try the opposite tack, to try to suggest that Hitler was an atheist (which is fairly easily refuted), and even more bizarrely, to try to link his hatred of Jews and the Holocaust to Darwin, evolution, etc.  This is a particularly disturbing trend being advocated by Creationist nutters in the States more than anywhere else.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Paladin represents my role-model and reflects on my personality, nothing more.

I'm assuming you're talking about the fictional "Paladin" and not from the Charlemagne and Roland fame?

Having grown up a bit of a nerd and "playing Paladins" do you realize how close minded and fanatical they are? They have one way of doing business, theirs.
Traditionally their not very big on science either. As far as their theme goes they are probably at the opposite end of science. 
Is a close minded fanatical religious holy warrior who uses violence to further the cause of their church really the role-model you aspire to be?
(before we get into an argument about the sci-fi Paladin and what they are, I have 18 years nerding it up being exposed to them on and off and even have "The Paladins handbook")  ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

Hitler claimed many, many times to have been a Catholic, to revere Catholic imagery, etc.  And it's long been noted that the Vatican didn't do much to express dispproval of him nor or Mussolini's fascism.  That said, it really would appear that Hitler just harnessed religious imagery and ideas to suit his ends, he viewed the church as a tool to strengthen his own views and to cast himself as a greater man.

I note, interestingly, that many of the more religiously ignorant types try the opposite tack, to try to suggest that Hitler was an atheist (which is fairly easily refuted), and even more bizarrely, to try to link his hatred of Jews and the Holocaust to Darwin, evolution, etc.  This is a particularly disturbing trend being advocated by Creationist nutters in the States more than anywhere else.

I think that his Catholicism may have been warped if he actually practiced church doctrine.  Having said that, he tried to overtake Church imagery, etc.  He used the church, as you said, a tool for his own gains.  But I'm fairly certain that Herr Hitler was no more a practicing Roman Catholic than Osama bin Laden.

As an aside, the vatican was stuck with a gun figuratively and literally to its head.
This is a review of a book about Vatican opposition to nazism.  Yes, it's on a Catholic website, but for what it's worth, there it is.

Here is something about what was read to parishoners on Passion Sunday in 1937.
The response:

The (censored) German newspapers did not mention the encyclical at all; the offices of every German diocese were visited the next day by the Gestapo and all extant copies were seized. Every publishing company that had printed it was closed and sealed, diocesan newspapers were all proscribed and limits imposed on the paper available for Church purposes.  Catholic flags were prohibited at religious ceremonies and towns with religious names (Heiligenstadt, etc.) were renamed

There are more sites out there about this, but in this one case, Wikipedia does have a well-referenced article.

 

[Jungle]

Agnostics are probably the only ones who believe neither side, and will wait to see what happens, I suppose.

"Waiting" is a big word, as I am in no hurry to find out what comes next, if anything does... but I am not worried. I live according to the values that were passed on to me by my parents; some have their origins in the Roman Catholic church, some have moral or legal bases.

As an aside, I take great issue with the assertion that only the religious can find meaning in life.  Whether one is atheist or not, we humans know that we are part of something special.  Whether it's an accident of time, space or physics, we are somehow part of something, and one doesn't have to believe in god to feel that way.  Think about it.  Everyone here has a mother and a father.  Some have siblings, and other still have children.  There is an unmistakable bond there that implies so much.  I believe that this goes, to varying degrees, to all across humanity.  So, atheist, religious or agnostic, we all share something and believe in something greater than us as individuals.

Very good post, TV. That is exactly the way I feel; I just don't like to insert some abstract concept in the equasion. We will never know the truth about god or the beginning of the universe, among other things, so I concentrate on things that are "real".

As for people like ravanosh, who insist that my life has no meaning, well... he is more proof that there are brainwashed radicals in all religions, who believe that their's is the one "true religion", which upholds the only "true values" and adores the only "true god". And he is asking us to widen our horizons ??  :

 

[vonGarvin]

As for people like ravanosh, who insist that my life has no meaning, well... he is more proof that there are brainwashed radicals in all religions, who believe that their's is the one "true religion", which upholds the only "true values" and adores the only "true god". And he is asking us to widen our horizons ??  :

The funny thing is, many religions have the same values, same god in some cases as well!  Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God.  I just wish that all people would actually follow whatever it is their religion says to do: eg: be nice to others.  The rest is details.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Mom says it best about religion, "They're all trying to get to the same place, how the hell can they find something to fight about?"
[She's 82 and still goes to church]