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A possible solution is Massive Mountain Gear Company not cheap, but neither is UnderArmor... they make fire-resistant clothing, including underwear, fleece and waterproof-breathable items.
Synthetic materials clothing now banned outside the wire in A'Stan
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Thanks
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Civi U(ntrained) said:
I was the 10 TAG Aircrew Life Support Equipment (ALSE) officer in the mid-nineties working with (then) saner heads in DLR and we actually had a converged design flightsuit/crewsuit in OG107 (pre-CADPAT days) Nomex PBI. As the Tac Hel rep for the Air Force, I okayed the operational configuration, which included an extraction strap built into the shoulders for use in extracting crewmen from an AFV if required. The plan was sailing smoothly (i.e. DSSPM was almost going to buy it for tac hel aircrew and Army crewmen) when an Air Force general was briefed by a "head up his ..." staff officer who pointed out that if the suit gained wider distribution in the air force, that some of the fighter pilots might be made fun of in the mess if they travelled to the States... The converged design was killed dead in its track right there by the (higher) Air Force...sorry land bunds, you guys were scr*wed!
Good to hear that something is happening now on converged suit using CADPAT...I personally think the slightly reduced effectiveness of the camouflage pattern on NOMEW vice the cotton/poly material (especially the IR aspects) has minimal operational impact. Up until recently, the Air Force was still marching to a previous CAS' order that Air Force CADPAT flight suits would happen "over his dead body" -- my dear Army brethren, sure you don't want to come work in the CF "employer of choice"? :
My "pragmatic realist" viewpoint (i.e. cynic :brickwall: ) is that we'll see a fully implemented fleet of CH148 Cyclones on ships before we ever see the air force allow any of its aircrew to wear CADPAT (whether it's operationally more suitable or not)...fighter blood unfortunately runs incredibly (i.e. TOO) deeply through the veins of the keepers of the light blue flame... :-\
Cheers,
Duey
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Duey did the fighter pilots not just recently go from a blue jump suit to olove drab for tactical reasons, Ie they had to punch out. Would it not make sense to have even better concelment or are they do worried about the LCF? How many fighter pilots can there be anyway.
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CFL said:
Yup...I fully agree with you, CFL! I'd prefer to have flying gear that is either TW at home or AR in AFG...maybe some day... :-\ I think there are something like a hundred or so Hornet pilots and 250+ Tac Hel aviators...we should win the CADPAT flying gear vote on numbers alone, but our vote only counts for a fraction of the fighter guys... >
Cheers,
Duey
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Well perhaps the CDS will play rock/paper/rank.
Any chance of you reaching the lofty goals where you can effect real change?
Any chance of you reaching the lofty goals where you can effect real change?
DUEY!! Fancy meeting you in this place. It's Mark H here. I finally decided to join in.
This is a favourite topic for me.
I began my fire-awareness and research into Nomex while in Moose Jaw in 81/82. Back then, and until recently, our flying clothing was a wool/poly blend generally in the colour of the dress uniform of the period. It was, in fact, the exact same fabric. We were constantly lectured/reminded of the need to wear two layers, with the inner being 100% cotton, and that always struck me as bizarre when the outer layer contained significant quantities of one of the nastiest fabrics imaginable. On the plus side, wool will not support combustion on its own and is a very good insulator. Worn over the cotton, it did give fairly good protection as a result. On the negative side, as it's a good insulator, these suits were not pleasant to wear on a warm day (the dark green ones really soaked up the sun as well) and one smelled like wet dog on rainy days in the field (it hardly stopped at all during my first Fallex). Nomex, if I remember correctly, will not burn at all but chars to an ash about 700F. Unfortunately, it transmits heat quite well, therefore one still needs the cotton layer underneath as Inch, I think, said. Without that, one has the choice of roasting or baking like a foil-wrapped potato depending upon the fabric. Our old flying suits gave about 0.3 seconds less (0.9 vice 1.2 seconds) flame protection than the US ones (both worn over cotton), but that can still make a huge difference especially in an ejection-seat-equipped aircraft. The current Nomex ones, being a heavier weight, should give more but I don't have the info.
Most guys will only wear the long underwear and turtleneck in cooler weather, and switch to T-shirt and gotch of choice in summer, but I've always worn the full lot when flying. Nomex is much cooler and breathes better at least.
We had a lengthy fight to get our two-piece olive green Tac Hel suits. It finally came down to a US Army exchange Major who developed the suit and some senior Army officers tired of seeing Kiowa guys leap out of our hels in almost white tan summer suits to liaise with their heavily-cammed troops on ex. We got our first ones at the beginning of my last year at 444 Sqn - but our CO, the last CDS, refused to let us wear them even in the field for all sorts of dumb reasons: we didn't have all of the badges for them, then we did but one was smaller than the coloured version, then something else. He was all for the stupid blue ones though.
The Herc guys started scrounging our two-pieces when they were flying into Sarajevo - they weren't supposed to leave the aircraft while on the ground but if they absolutely had to they didn't want to be the only idiots wearing bright blue shoot-me suits. The F18 guys got over a hundred US suits for Gulf War I and more for later operations over the former Yugoslavia when they finally wised up to the fact that there was only one colour that really mattered and it wasn't the airshow one.
I wouldn't care less what the air force does if it wasn't for the sad fact that Tac Hel (which originated in the Canadian Army) got sucked into it in 1975. There are still plenty at the top who have no clue what Tac Hel's about or why we exist and what we need - I could rant for hours about that, too - so I am not terribly optimistic about seeing even our two-piece in CADPAT.
A battlefield helicopter is simply a vehicle with a different means of mobility - rotary wing rather than wheels or tracks - and its employment and crew requirements are pretty much the same. Common clothing just makes too much sense, except amongst the decision-makers.
Our current suits (one- or two-piece) would not be suitable for vehicle crews as-is. You'd most likely want to change most, if not all, of the pockets, eliminate the lower leg zippers and go to a more traditional bloused leg, and remove the pen pockets from the shins, and the F18 leg-restraint tunnels as they snag.
"F18 leg-restraint tunnels"?
There is a strap that goes around the mid-calf area of F18 pilots which attaches to an explosive-driven reel that hauls their legs back against the seat a split-second before ejection occurs so that their legs do not catch on the instrument panel or flail. The large lower-leg patch pockets are generally stuffed with maps and flying publications. There was concern that these restraints would not stay in place properly with pockets filled, so there is a flat fabric tunnel between the pocket and underlying leg fabric that these restraints can be passed through. The dumb thing is, aside from adding a few bucks more to the cost of construction and something for us to catch twigs with in the field, F18 guys are not allowed to fly without G-suits over top of their flying suits so these tunnels are covered up and, as far as I know, have never been used since they appeared in the early eighties. No F18 guy that I know of has ever flown in a Tac Hel two-piece suit either, with or without G-suit, yet these tunnels are included in the two-piece suit as well. Such is the mentality that we labour under.
And then there was the aircrew NBC ensemble that they attempted to force us into in the mid-eighties, but that's another two hours of typing - diapers, condoms with hoses, dental adhesive...
This is a favourite topic for me.
I began my fire-awareness and research into Nomex while in Moose Jaw in 81/82. Back then, and until recently, our flying clothing was a wool/poly blend generally in the colour of the dress uniform of the period. It was, in fact, the exact same fabric. We were constantly lectured/reminded of the need to wear two layers, with the inner being 100% cotton, and that always struck me as bizarre when the outer layer contained significant quantities of one of the nastiest fabrics imaginable. On the plus side, wool will not support combustion on its own and is a very good insulator. Worn over the cotton, it did give fairly good protection as a result. On the negative side, as it's a good insulator, these suits were not pleasant to wear on a warm day (the dark green ones really soaked up the sun as well) and one smelled like wet dog on rainy days in the field (it hardly stopped at all during my first Fallex). Nomex, if I remember correctly, will not burn at all but chars to an ash about 700F. Unfortunately, it transmits heat quite well, therefore one still needs the cotton layer underneath as Inch, I think, said. Without that, one has the choice of roasting or baking like a foil-wrapped potato depending upon the fabric. Our old flying suits gave about 0.3 seconds less (0.9 vice 1.2 seconds) flame protection than the US ones (both worn over cotton), but that can still make a huge difference especially in an ejection-seat-equipped aircraft. The current Nomex ones, being a heavier weight, should give more but I don't have the info.
Most guys will only wear the long underwear and turtleneck in cooler weather, and switch to T-shirt and gotch of choice in summer, but I've always worn the full lot when flying. Nomex is much cooler and breathes better at least.
We had a lengthy fight to get our two-piece olive green Tac Hel suits. It finally came down to a US Army exchange Major who developed the suit and some senior Army officers tired of seeing Kiowa guys leap out of our hels in almost white tan summer suits to liaise with their heavily-cammed troops on ex. We got our first ones at the beginning of my last year at 444 Sqn - but our CO, the last CDS, refused to let us wear them even in the field for all sorts of dumb reasons: we didn't have all of the badges for them, then we did but one was smaller than the coloured version, then something else. He was all for the stupid blue ones though.
The Herc guys started scrounging our two-pieces when they were flying into Sarajevo - they weren't supposed to leave the aircraft while on the ground but if they absolutely had to they didn't want to be the only idiots wearing bright blue shoot-me suits. The F18 guys got over a hundred US suits for Gulf War I and more for later operations over the former Yugoslavia when they finally wised up to the fact that there was only one colour that really mattered and it wasn't the airshow one.
I wouldn't care less what the air force does if it wasn't for the sad fact that Tac Hel (which originated in the Canadian Army) got sucked into it in 1975. There are still plenty at the top who have no clue what Tac Hel's about or why we exist and what we need - I could rant for hours about that, too - so I am not terribly optimistic about seeing even our two-piece in CADPAT.
A battlefield helicopter is simply a vehicle with a different means of mobility - rotary wing rather than wheels or tracks - and its employment and crew requirements are pretty much the same. Common clothing just makes too much sense, except amongst the decision-makers.
Our current suits (one- or two-piece) would not be suitable for vehicle crews as-is. You'd most likely want to change most, if not all, of the pockets, eliminate the lower leg zippers and go to a more traditional bloused leg, and remove the pen pockets from the shins, and the F18 leg-restraint tunnels as they snag.
"F18 leg-restraint tunnels"?
There is a strap that goes around the mid-calf area of F18 pilots which attaches to an explosive-driven reel that hauls their legs back against the seat a split-second before ejection occurs so that their legs do not catch on the instrument panel or flail. The large lower-leg patch pockets are generally stuffed with maps and flying publications. There was concern that these restraints would not stay in place properly with pockets filled, so there is a flat fabric tunnel between the pocket and underlying leg fabric that these restraints can be passed through. The dumb thing is, aside from adding a few bucks more to the cost of construction and something for us to catch twigs with in the field, F18 guys are not allowed to fly without G-suits over top of their flying suits so these tunnels are covered up and, as far as I know, have never been used since they appeared in the early eighties. No F18 guy that I know of has ever flown in a Tac Hel two-piece suit either, with or without G-suit, yet these tunnels are included in the two-piece suit as well. Such is the mentality that we labour under.
And then there was the aircrew NBC ensemble that they attempted to force us into in the mid-eighties, but that's another two hours of typing - diapers, condoms with hoses, dental adhesive...
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Mark, I saw you pop up a few days ago...ah yes, one of your and my favourite topics, life support equipment. Remember us chatting years back when I was in 10 TAG HQ trying to swing a deal with the Army on the crew suit/flight suit converged design? Well, we almost had it (it wouldn't have had lower pen clips, ejection leg-straps, but would have had the "handle" on the back to aid extraction) Alas, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Rumours are (I haven't been able to confirm with guys in DSSPM/DLR/DAR) that folks are looking at a fire-retardant suit again, perhaps based on CADPAT in a 1-piece format. I suppose we'll see in the future what happends to this issue. Although expensive, I would actually make the case for light-weight nomex/FR fabric for all pers who regularly operate in a vehicle (helo or LAV, it matters not to me) where they are susceptible to fire exposure. Some folks might say it would be too warm, but I tend to disagree. I would print AR CADPAT on a light-weight (4.5-5 oz/sq.yd) tan nomex, like the flight suits that deployed tac aviators like me were issued. When I was down in Khandahar flying with some US CH47 buds, I was wearing my US-procured, light-weight tan 2-piece nomex flying suit (much to RSM Bartlett's chagrin - he thought it was inappropriate of me to be wearing a clothing system that he had "not approved" : -- not that I felt I had to, but I took the time to point out to him that a CF pilot flying with coalition forces was absolutely authorized to wear CF-approved and procured flight clothing when engaged in flying operations. He told me he doubted I was involved in flying ops as to his knowledge (a critical point to the discusion) the CF had no aircrew in theatre engaged in flight ops. I politely noted to him that both I and the next CO 427 SOAS would beg to differ with him as we had just landed from a 3-hour flight in a TF Storm CH-47D as part of an area recce) <- there you go, Loachman...you got me going again! 
Cheers,
Duey
-- not that I felt I had to, but I took the time to point out to him that a CF pilot flying with coalition forces was absolutely authorized to wear CF-approved and procured flight clothing when engaged in flying operations. He told me he doubted I was involved in flying ops as to his knowledge (a critical point to the discusion) the CF had no aircrew in theatre engaged in flight ops. I politely noted to him that both I and the next CO 427 SOAS would beg to differ with him as we had just landed from a 3-hour flight in a TF Storm CH-47D as part of an area recce) <- there you go, Loachman...you got me going again! Cheers,
Duey
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Duey said:
Sir,
I would like to add that my father was the Lt.Col with DAR 6 during the CADPAT development for the Airforce. He has relayed similar accounts while he was in NDHQ. He did say however that at the time CADAPT pattern on Nomex flight suits was possible, but expensive (IIRC 1200 a piece). My understanding was that the decision was an economic, and not aesthetic. From what I understand, the price has dropped and it is now being reconsidered.
As an aside, there were initial talks about a distinctive CADPAT pattern for Air force ground crew. Some kind of urban "blue" theme. Again it was judged to be too expensive and impractical.
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Bograt, the gang in DAR during your dad's tenure were a good bunch! I do think, however, some guys were getting hung up on trying to fully replicate to 100% the IR-reduction measures of CADPAT within the proposed flying gear specs, and that lead to exorbitant unit costs. I think that was perhaps a bit unrealistic for a number of reasons. Firstly is the truism that when it comes to "systems" of any kind, you often have to spend 90% of the costs to get that last 10% of performance -- inject any high/low ratio here, 95/5, 80/20, etc... but you get the idea. To try and match characteristics with the 100% brand-new, CADPAT direct from the manufacturer, was a target that really wouldn't match up in real life anyway since, I'd be willing to bet, the IR-reduced signature of either combat or flying clothing would be significantly reduced after only a few washing cycles anyway. At the end of the day, I'm happier to have one and two-piece flying gear in nomex today than the polyester/wool stuff we used to have (dark green/tan in the 80's leading to blue (and tac hel OG107) in the 90's). Camouflage to make the gear look the same as my Army brethren I fly would be an added bonus, but it is not a "hill I'm going to die on" yet when there's a whole lot more kit that would be nice to have first (personal locater beacons, etc...) That we have fire retardant flying clothing now is a big win from days past.
Cheers,
Duey
Cheers,
Duey
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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We wore a nomex floater/flight suit on the hovercraft in the CCG
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Colin P said:
IIRC (Inch or SeaKingTacco can correct me if I'm off
) the aircrew immersion suit has a nomex outer shell -- makes sense since the Sea King guys are most likely wearing a poopie-suit most of the time.Cheers,
Duey
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Duey said:IIRC (Inch or SeaKingTacco can correct me if I'm off
Cheers,
Duey
A little off topic since I don't think the crunchies will need an immersion suit, but.....
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=314
Here's our suit. I had no idea that it was flame "resistant" as they put it. I have my doubts though that the latex seals will stand up to any amount of heat.
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The last nomex flight suit contract for DND was won at about $130.00/unit. That was in AirForce green. That was down from previous contracts from Peerless and others around $180.00. Printed Universal Camo Nomex for US CVC and flight suits costs about $5-10 more per yard than solid colors. $1200.00 for a CADPAT flight suit is insane. The Canadian textile industry is milking CADPAT for everything they can.
Hobey
Hobey
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It won't. If you are ever in a fire with your "goon-bag" on, you will have a permanently installed latex seal on your wrist and neck...good luck picking up chicks downtown Halifax with that look
We are supposed to get a new suit "anyday" now that will get rid of the neck and wrist seals and also change the liner (we are still using the same material as the liners from the OG107 combat coats were made from. They don't keep you warm when it's cold or breath when it's warm), but I guess "anyday" won't actually occur until some fighter pilot, who wears his immersion suit once per year, decides he doesn't like it. Until then, there is no point in listening to the 150+ MH guys who wear it daily...As for the saga of the flight suits- The blue flight suit was a disaster. I remember wearing that thing in the Gulf in 2000. Imagine a wool/polyester flight suit over cotton long underwear in a helo (cabin temp 45C, relative humidity 85%) for a 2.5 hr mission. After 30 minutes, you were soaked with sweat. The suits would get stiff and hard when wet and would rub you raw on the neck and wrists. Post flight, you stunk like a wet dog. Of course, trying to get anyone in the Air Force interested in our plight was near folly- everyone was too busy trying to find a flight suit that would look good at air shows or in the office. By the end of our tour, we got sent some "experimental" nomex suits that were like a gift from the heavens- breathable and did not soak up moisture.
Before that tour, I tried the same end run around our supply system that our CF-18 brethren did when they bought US flight suits and abandonned blue flight suits. I was told categorically "NO". Apparently, there are two completely different standards that apply to ALSE in the Air Force- 1. whatever the fighter guys want; and 2. the rest of us. Thankfully, now we are all in Nomex, but you still run into the odd wierdo who laments the passing of the blue flight suit- mostly on the grounds of "air force tradition"...
If the Army and Air force are converging on a common crew/flight suit design- I have no problem with that. Just make sure it is reasonably breathable and fire proof...
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"but I guess "anyday" won't actually occur until some fighter pilot, who wears his immersion suit once per year, decides he doesn't like it."
"Apparently, there are two completely different standards that apply to ALSE in the Air Force- 1. whatever the fighter guys want; and 2. the rest of us"
Ah you've got to love inter office politics.
SKT do they not do some kind of trials which would have pointed out the problems of the blue suit?
"Apparently, there are two completely different standards that apply to ALSE in the Air Force- 1. whatever the fighter guys want; and 2. the rest of us"
Ah you've got to love inter office politics.
SKT do they not do some kind of trials which would have pointed out the problems of the blue suit?
