Syria Superthread [merged]

[Ex-Dragoon]

Are you so certain that even if the US in good conscious offered to sit down at a table, that these countries and entities would even sit down and negotiated fairly with the US/West?

 

[Fusaki]

First off, the bird fucking rocks.

Second off, if you were Syria and I were the US, and our negotiations were anything like this debate, I would have raided your sovereign ass a long time ago. Because ya know what? When diplomatic means are ineffective, I reserve the right to violence in order to secure the safety of my troops.

When you're trying to balance hearts and minds with force protection, ya gotta draw the line somewhere. Killing this AQ cell was deemed worth the cost to international relations.

 

[1feral1]

And people wonder why events such as 9/11 happen,
Let's not also forget about the innocent civilians killed in this action. RIP to those killed, my condolences go out to their families.

Alright, I am arc'd up over this one! yes, and I will bite.

It really disturbs me a great deal to read such horrible comments which are apparently coming from 'someone' within the ranks of the CF, who is supposed to be 'one' of our own (??). For this reason I am beginning to doubt if this person is one of our brothers in arms. If so, his real identity, and (IMHO) ABHORENT behavior should in fact be noted and passed on up the chain. Is this person still a serving member? If Militia, NES perhaps? Although we each have opinions, his, in my opinion is outright callous and dangerous. I would openly question his LOYALTY to his peers, his Unit and especially his country.

Cog-Dis/Army Goon, you are way out of line with that 9-11 comment! That cut me to the bone! Your own words tell me you are saying the USA deserved what they got in 2001, and should get more of the same for this incident. Shame on you for spewing such shyte on this site. Your whole post is outragous, and I find it as palletable as dog shyte!!

Your words are an insult to all of us who have fought, those that have been KIA/WIA, and are stuck with a lifetime of rehab from physical and emotional injuries. We also cannot forget their families and friends who have to live with things the way they are now for the rest of their lives.

RIP to the families of the Terrorists? I nearly fell over reading that! Just remember, its these people who are kiiling and wounding your Canadian brethern, my Australian fellow Diggers, and our US and other Allies soldiers, and you feel sorry for the families of those trying to kill us?  Holy crap!!!

As for the 'civilians' killed on this operation, take away their ammo pouches, RPGs and AKs, and you have 'innocent' civilians, when moments before they were gun toting cowardly terrorists who would GLADLY slit your throat with your own bayonet and film it for your own family to see.

How gullable and niave are you!! Its showing, and so are your TRUE COLOURS.

You need a huge reality check! Not that it would help, as we know where you stand and where your loyalties are now.

Gents and ladies, I think what we have here is an audience/attention seeking TROLL with an agenda that I sensed (and noted) was 'hidden' in another post. That agenda is now in full blossum, and let the meltdown commence. We are only giving him what he wants.

At days end we know the facts, he knows SFA. That we all can agree on, except for the TROLUP in this case.

Remember all, we are talking about a person who has admitted that PT in the CF scares him. He'll never leave the safety of the bosum of dear ole Canada. Need I say more about his character and quality he possesses and has demonstrated openly for us on this site. His posts speak for themselves.

Please remember back if/when he comes back and responds in his gutless fashion and troll mentality.

He is nothing, but he is feeding off our emotion, including mine. I hope he feels better now for doing so. How bloody pathetic is that!

EDITED for spelling due to irritation.

Yes, disgusted beyond a joke.

OWDU

 

[tomahawk6]

The bad guys have learned that in these situations always claim civilian deaths,even if there were none. In this case 7 male bodies were displayed on location.This raid was conducted by 8 special operations operators from TF 88,these men are highly trained and just do not shoot indescriminately.

US strike in Syria "decapitated" al Qaeda's facilitation network
By Bill RoggioOctober 27, 2008 4:51 PM
Al Qaeda leader Abu Ghadiya was killed in yesterday's strike inside Syria, a senior US military intelligence official told The Long War Journal. But US special operations forces also inflicted a major blow to al Qaeda's foreign fighter network based in Syria. The entire senior leadership of Ghadiya's network was also killed in the raid, the official stated.

Ghadiya was the leader of al Qaeda extensive network that funnels foreign fighters, weapons, and cash from Syria into Iraq along the entire length of the Syrian border. Ghadiya was first identified as the target of the raid inside Syria late last night here at The Long War Journal. The Associated Press reported Ghadiya was killed in the raid earlier today.

Several US helicopters entered the town of town of Sukkariya near Abu Kamal in eastern Syria, just five miles from the Iraqi border. US commandos from the hunter-killer teams of Task Force 88 assaulted the buildings sheltering Ghadiya and his staff.

The Syrian government has protested the attack, describing it as an act of "criminal and terrorist aggression" carried out by the US. The Syrian government claimed eight civilians, including women and children, were killed in the strike. But a journalist from The Associated Press who attended the funeral said that only the bodies of seven men were displayed.

The US official said there were more killed in the raid than is being reported. "There are more than public numbers [in the Syrian press] are saying, those reported killed were the Syrian locals that worked with al Qaeda," the official told The Long War Journal. "There were non-Syrian al Qaeda operatives killed as well."

Those killed include Ghadiya's brother and two cousins. "They also were part of the senior leadership," the official stated. "They're dead. We've decapitated the network." Others killed during the raid were not identified.

The strike is thought to have a major impact on al Qaeda's operations inside Syria. Al Qaeda's ability to control the vast group of local "Syrian coordinators" who directly help al Qaeda recruits and operatives enter Iraq has been "crippled."

Ghadiya's staff

The identity of Ghadiya and several members of his senior staff have been known since February 2008 when the US Treasury identified Ghadiya, his brother, and his two cousins as members of the network. The US Treasury department publicly designated Ghadiya, his brother, Akram Turki Hishan Al Mazidih, and his two cousins, Ghazy Fezza Hishan Al Mazidih and Saddah Jaylut Al Marsumis as senior members of al Qaeda's foreign facilitation network.

Ghadiya, whose real name is Badran Turki Hishan Al Mazidih, was an Iraqi from Mosul. He was working as an al Qaeda logistics coordinator in Syria since 2004, when he was appointed to the position by Abu Musab al Zarqawi. After Zarqawi's death, he "took orders directly, or through a deputy" from Abu Ayyub al Masri, al Qaeda's current leader in Iraq,

Ghazy Was Ghadiya's "right-hand man," the Treasury stated. "As second-in-command, Ghazy worked directly with [Ghadiya], managed network operations, and acted as the commander for [Ghadiya's] AQI [al Qaeda in Iraq] network when [Ghadiya] traveled."

Akram directed al Qaeda operations along with Ghadiya in the Al Qaim region right on the border with Syria. He smuggled weapons from Syria into Iraq, and ordered "the execution of AQI's enemies," Treasury stated. "Akram also ordered the execution of all persons found to be working with the Iraqi Government or US Forces."

Marsumi was an al Qaeda financier who "facilitated the financing and smuggling of AQI foreign fighters from Syria into Iraq." He helped Syrian suicide bombers enter Iraq, and also wired hundreds of thousands of dollars to Ghadiya to facilitate operations.

All four men lived openly inside Syria. The US Treasury identified Ghadiya, Ghazy, and Akram as living in Zabadani. Marsumi lived in the village of Al Shajlah.

A senior US general and the Iraqi spokesmen both noted that al Qaeda leaders were openly living inside Syria, and the Syrian government did nothing to shut down the network.

"The attacked area was the scene of activities of terrorist groups operating from Syria against Iraq," Ali al Dabbagh, Iraq's spokesman told Reuters. "Iraq had asked Syria to hand over this group which uses Syria as a base for its terrorist activities."

Major General John Kelly, the commander of Multinational Force - West, described Syria as "problematic" during a briefing on Oct. 23. "The Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi intelligence forces feel that al Qaeda operatives and others operate, live pretty openly on the Syrian side," Kelly said. "

Background on al Qaeda's Syrian facilitation network

Syria has long been a haven for al Qaeda as well as Baathists who fled the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Terrorists and insurgents took advantage of the long, desolate, and unsecured border, which stretches more than 460 miles along Iraq's western provinces of Anbar, Ninewa, and Dohuk.

At the height of the Iraqi insurgency, an estimated 100 to 150 foreign fighters poured into Iraq from Syria each month. Operations in Anbar and Ninewa have pushed that number down to 20 infiltrators a month, according to the US military.

Wanted insurgent leaders, such as Mishan al Jabouri, openly live in Syria. Jabouri, a former member of the Iraqi parliament, fled to Syria after being charged with corruption for embezzling government funds and for supporting al Qaeda. From Syria Jabouri ran Al Zawraa, a satellite television station that aired al Qaeda and Islamic Army of Iraq propaganda videos showing attacks against US and Iraqi forces.

Al Qaeda established a network of operatives inside Syria to move foreign fighters, weapons, and cash to support its terror activities inside Iraq. An al Qaeda manual detailed ways to infiltrate Iraq via Syria. The manual, titled The New Road to Mesopotamia, was written by a jihadi named Al Muhajir Al Islami, and discovered in the summer of 2005.

The Iraqi-Syrian border was broken down into four sectors: the Habur crossing near Zakhu in the north; the Tal Kujik and Sinjar border crossings west of Mosul; the Al Qaim entry point in western Anbar; and the southern crossing at Al Tanf west of Rutbah near the Jordanian border. Islami claimed the Al Tanf and Habur crossing points were too dangerous to use, and Al Qaim was the preferred route into Iraq.

The US military learned a great deal about al Qaeda's network inside Syria after a key operative was killed in September of 2007. US forces killed Muthanna, the regional commander of al Qaeda's network in the Sinjar region.

During the operation, US forces found numerous documents and electronic files that detailed "the larger al-Qaeda effort to organize, coordinate, and transport foreign terrorists into Iraq and other places," Major General Kevin Bergner, the former spokesman for Multinational Forces Iraq, said in October 2007.

Bergner said several of the documents found with Muthanna included a list of 500 al Qaeda fighters from "a range of foreign countries that included Libya, Morocco, Syria, Algeria, Oman, Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Belgium, France and the United Kingdom."

Other documents found in Muthanna's possession included a "pledge of a martyr," which is signed by foreign fighters inside Syria, and an expense report. The pledge said the suicide bomber must provide a photograph and surrender their passport. It also stated the recruit must enroll in a "security course" in Syria. The expense report was tallied in US dollars, Syrian lira, and Iraqi dinars, and included items such as clothing, food, fuel, mobile phone cards, weapons, salaries, "sheep purchased," furniture, spare parts for vehicles, and other items.

The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point later conducted a detailed study of the "Sinjar Records," which was published in July 2008. The study showed that al Qaeda had an extensive network in Syria and the Syrian government has allowed their activities to continue.

"The Syrian government has willingly ignored, and possibly abetted, foreign fighters headed to Iraq," the study concluded. "Concerned about possible military action against the Syrian regime, it opted to support insurgents and terrorists wreaking havoc in Iraq."

Al Qaeda established multiple networks of "Syrian Coordinators" that "work primarily with fighters from specific countries, and likely with specific Coordinators in fighters’ home countries," according to the study. The Syrian city of Dayr al Zawr serves as a vital logistical hub and a transit point for al Qaeda recruits and operatives heading to Iraq.

A vast majority of the fighters entering Iraq from Sinjar served as suicide bombers. The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point estimated that 75 percent conducted suicide attacks inside Iraq.

 

[PAT-Platoon]

Alright, I am arc'd up over this one! yes, and I will bite.

It really disturbs me a great deal to read such horrible comments which are apparently coming from 'someone' within the ranks of the CF, who is supposed to be 'one' of our own (??). For this reason I am beginning to doubt if this person is one of our brothers in arms. If so, his real identity, and (IMHO) ABHORENT behavior should in fact be noted and passed on up the chain. Is this person still a serving member? If Militia, NES perhaps? Although we each have opinions, his, in my opinion is outright callous and dangerous. I would openly question his LOYALTY to his peers, his Unit and especially his country.

Cog-Dis/Army Goon, you are way out of line with that 9-11 comment! That cut me to the bone! Your own words tell me you are saying the USA deserved what they got in 2001, and should get more of the same for this incident. Shame on you for spewing such shyte on this site. Your whole post is outragous, and I find it as palletable as dog shyte!!

Your words are an insult to all of us who have fought, those that have been KIA/WIA, and are stuck with a lifetime of rehab from physical and emotional injuries. We also cannot forget their families and friends who have to live with things the way they are now for the rest of their lives.

RIP to the families of the Terrorists? I nearly fell over reading that! Just remember, its these people who are kiiling and wounding your Canadian brethern, my Australian fellow Diggers, and our US and other Allies soldiers, and you feel sorry for the families of those trying to kill us?  Holy crap!!!

As for the 'civilians' killed on this operation, take away their ammo pouches, RPGs and AKs, and you have 'innocent' civilians, when moments before they were gun toting cowardly terrorists who would GLADLY slit your throat with your own bayonet and film it for your own family to see.

How gullable and niave are you!! Its showing, and so are your TRUE COLOURS.

You need a huge reality check! Not that it would help, as we know where you stand and where your loyalties are now.

Gents and ladies, I think what we have here is an audience/attention seeking TROLL with an agenda that I sensed (and noted) was 'hidden' in another post. That agenda is now in full blossum, and let the meltdown commence. We are only giving him what he wants.

At days end we know the facts, he knows SFA. That we all can agree on, except for the TROLUP in this case.

Remember all, we are talking about a person who has admitted that PT in the CF scares him. He'll never leave the safety of the bosum of dear ole Canada. Need I say more about his character and quality he possesses and has demonstrated openly for us on this site. His posts speak for themselves.

Please remember back if/when he comes back and responds in his gutless fashion and troll mentality.

He is nothing, but he is feeding off our emotion, including mine. I hope he feels better now for doing so. How bloody pathetic is that!

EDITED for spelling due to irritation.

Yes, disgusted beyond a joke.

OWDU

My implications with 9/11 were not that the USA deserved it whatsoever. No nation deserves to have such a horrid act committed upon them and my heart goes out to those who died in the attacks. However what I believe is just as important as remembering the victims, but also finding out how it happened, and to prevent it in the future. Its been consistently proven that the situation in 9/11 happened because of our antagonistic involvement in the Middle East. Look at our interventionism both overt and covert and you'll see that their hatred and motivations to attack us aren't justified, however they are understandable. Who I am debating is those who advocate a clear black and white message of "us vs them". Its not so simple to say they are evil and are out to "destroy our freedoms", that is a cop out and it establishes and fixes nothing.

Furthermore if you read the article you would see that women and children were killed in the attacks. They were reported as civilians, not as terrorists. Also, these are not the same people we are fighting in Afghanistan. My heart goes out to the innocent women and children, who were reported as civilians by the reports given from the aftermath of the attack. If you can show me definitive proof that these were "terrorists" then I would be persuaded to rephrase my condolences.

As to my status, I am not NES, nor am I a former member. My profile shows my current qualifications and history, and call me spook-paranoid but I like to keep some anonymonity when speaking on a public internet forum, so excuse me if I do not wish to give up anymore personal information on such a widely accessed public forum.

As to questions of my loyalty to my unit and my country I refuse to answer such antagonistic baits. I have proven my loyalty and continue to proudly serve in the Canadian Forces, and will continue to serve for years to come. Loving ones country, army and unit does not mean it should be given a free ticket of criticism. If anything I am obligated as a professional to bring about these topics, as it creates open dialogue. I do not appreciate character assassinations of the type that you are openly invoking. You can continue to search through my posts and ridicule my character however I have yet to see real debate.

-C/D

 

[Shamrock]

You can continue to search through my posts and ridicule my character however I have yet to see real debate.

Again, you're not here to debate.  You're not here to convince any of us you're right or we're wrong.  You're here to confirm your own rightness in your own head.

 

[Drag]

Hopefully Syria learns a lesson from this: Secure your borders with Iraq and keep terrorists out and this won't happen again.  This harbouring terrorists crap used to work when they had their big brothers the Soviets backing them, but not anymore.  Get used to it.

 

[1feral1]

My implications with 9/11 were not that the USA deserved it whatsoever.  Its been consistently proven that the situation in 9/11 happened because of our antagonistic involvement in the Middle East. Look at our interventionism both overt and covert and you'll see that their hatred and motivations to attack us aren't justified, however they are understandable. Who I am debating is those who advocate a clear black and white message of "us vs them". Its not so simple to say they are evil and are out to "destroy our freedoms", that is a cop out and it establishes and fixes nothing.

Furthermore if you read the article you would see that women and children were killed in the attacks. They were reported as civilians, not as terrorists. Also, these are not the same people we are fighting in Afghanistan. My heart goes out to the innocent women and children, who were reported as civilians by the reports given from the aftermath of the attack. If you can show me definitive proof that these were "terrorists" then I would be persuaded to rephrase my condolences.

As to my status, I am not NES, nor am I a former member. My profile shows my current qualifications and history

As to questions of my loyalty to my unit and my country I refuse to answer such antagonistic baits.  I do not appreciate character assassinations of the type that you are openly invoking. You can continue to search through my posts and ridicule my character however I have yet to see real debate.

-C/D

Dear Sir,

This is not a personal attack, just stating a VALID opinion.

You cannot be debated, thats already been proven. For our Mods to comment on such troll-like behaviour adds weight to my opinion of you. Its your integrity on here, not ours, and you've set the precidence. IMHO you appear to be the type who would question authority on the battlefield and would wind up getting your mates killed because you hestitated by NOT squeezing the trigger. I certinally would not want you in my Troop/Platoon, but fear naught ole chum, you'll never be going anywhere dangerous outside of the borders of Canada, oh and thats IMHO, but again who am I.

A response from you exactly as I thought it would be. I am not ridiculing you, just calling a spade a spade, and luring an active troll out from under it's rock. All I have quoted are your OWN words, which breed nothing but sheer and utter contempt and disloyality to your mates, your Unit, the CF and this ongoing war as a whole. Don't try talking your way out of the US deserving 9-11 comment, you said it, and I am not the only one who understood what you said.

Excuses are like AHs, Cog-Dis! With almost 33 yrs in two armies, and yes, time on the two way rifle range (do you know what that means??), I've heard them all  :

At least I and others know what you are and what your agenda is, and thats all that counts.

As for your military service which you openly tell us all is current, your MOC is that of a Regular Army soldier, why is it not that of a Militia soldier (oh, its not Militia bashing, I did my time in that and absolutely loved it), and what about the new MOS, why not use that? 031, or R031 for that matter is incorrect, and misleading. How about being honest and ensure this is corrected. I guess time will tell won't it.

Don't try to mislead us by falsly telling us you are a Regular Force member when you are not. You are openly telling a 'porky pie' (rythmic slang for a lie). Its times like this when perhaps an imposter is present. Too many secrets. I still doubt your authenticity. Take a look at my profile, I have nothing to hide.

Oh, and they are the same Enemy BTW, different nationality perhaps, but same goals, but you're the Subject Matter Expert, afterall never setting foot on hostile ground, and gathering your info from INet sources, makes you 'in the know', and I and others, who have experienced some 'hairy assed' traumatic incidents know SFA in your eyes, and you see us as war mongering sociopaths, thriving off the blood of innocent civilian casualties. Even though as a part time soldier, you are definatly in the wrong job. My men would eat you alive!

We all have opinions, but agendas full of anti US rant and a cocky attitude with a chip on one's shoulder to boot do not mix well with me, but again who am I.

When you grow up (sure you might be legally an adult), and get some real life 'every day' experience, shy of some twisted text book, INet source, or questionable leftist Uni friends, then get back to me.

Do have a happy day.

Peace, love, and harmony,

OWDU
Veteran

re-EDITed for clarity and the usual spelling mistakes

 

[2 Cdo]

As for your service, your MOC is that of a regular army soldier, why is it not what you are, a militia member (oh, its not militia bashing, I did my time in that and loved it), and what about the new MOS? 031, or R031 for that matter is incorrect, and misleading.

Don't try to mislead us by falsly telling us you are a Regular Force member when you are not.

I'm curious now as to which regiment he is a member, and I truly hope it isn't mine!

 

[enfield]

Is no one else here worried about the horrible precedent set here by the USA?

It seems the USA is done with its covert operations and has gone straight through with aggressive style incursions into foreign countries. It seems like, with the Iraq war and continuing escalations, the USA is just finished with following international law and any international reconciliation.

And people wonder why events such as 9/11 happen, and why Iran and Syria are so antagonistic towards us. Continued unilateral actions as some omniscient international superpower does not create a better future for relations in the region whatsoever. It seems the concept of blowback was not learned through 9/11, was it?

Let's not also forget about the innocent civilians killed in this action. RIP to those killed, my condolences go out to their families.

Ok, it's a quiet night - I'll bite.

1- According to Western and international legal tradition, national sovereignty and territory integrity are not absolute. There are many cases when outside powers and organizations are expected to intervene, with military force, inside a sovereign nation.  Only China, Russia, N. Korea, et. al., dispute this.  Examples of justfied intervention might include NATO in Bosnia and Kosovo, East Timor, Somalia 1992-93, Britain in Sierra Leone, and many, many others.  The precedent was set long ago, and was most recently embodied, officially, in the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes.

2- Sovereignty can be violated when a nation state fails to treat it's citizens in a humane manner, or when a state is unable or unwilling to exercise control of it's territory, which is the case in this example.  You used the example of Cuba attacking terrorists in Florida. That is not a reasonable example - the US Government is able to control it's territory, making action by Cuba unnecessary. Cuba, in this case is left with other options which it can rationally choose to take - decide getting rid of these terrorists is worth war with the US, use other means (assassination, like Russia uses on dissidents), or go to a international organization. However, unless a state has no other options, it is unlikely to trust an international committee with its own security and the lives of its citizens. But I digres.

3- The existence of networks that facilitated the movement of foreign volunteers into Iraq, through Syria, was well known and well documented, even as the first US troops crossed the Iraqi border in 2003.  It has been discussed many times by American and Iraqi leaders and media commentators and 'experts'. Yes, a large degree of the Iraqi insurgency was carried out by Iraqis - but a siginificant part of the worst attacks, such as suicide bombings, were carried out by foreigners. In the past year, as the situation in Iraq stablilized, common Iraqis were less interested in civil war, and foreign fighters became more prominent.  I'll refer you to the "Iraqi Insurgency" article in Wikipedia (yes, I realize it's not the ideal source, but frankly it's a good place to start, and I'm not going to troll the 'net finding sources).

4- This is not news to Syria. The insurgent networks in Syria were a subject of discussion between US and Syrian leadership since the US invaded - however, Syria (and Iran) perceives it's best interests to be served by exercising a degree of control over the insurgency, allowing them to gain from the eventual outcome. For five years Syria has chosen to allow these networks to exist on their soil. Likely, they were allowed exist in limited and tightly controlled circumstances.  For a similar example, but of what can go wrong, look up the experience of Jordan and the PLO - Black September, 1970. 

5- Whether you were for the invasion of Iraq or against it is immaterial at this time - we have the war we have, and the question for decision makers is how to deal with the problems we have now. Your immediate reaction may be "Withdraw!" or "Negotiate a settlement!". Withdrawal, at this stage, would equal chaos. A negotiated settlement - between who? Should Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the US sit down and carve up a new Iraq?  Should domestic extremist parties - Shia and Sunni - divide up the country between hateful, warring sides?

6- I think that the solution Gen. Petraeus (and others) have started forward is a good one - neighbourhood solutions, local settlement of issues, local security - and the statistics agree with this assessment, although the future remains shaky.  I believe that the option presented by the US (increased local security, gradual withdrawal of US troops) is the best option for Iraq, and although imperfect, far better than alternatives. Therefore, individuals/entities/groups/states that attempt to interfere with this process - and in so doing, cause massive death, destruction and harm to many innocents - need to be halted. I'll call these individuals 'spoilers', as they have a singular goal: prevent the solution advanced by the US, at any cost.

7- Within Iraq, Iraqi and US forces are able to deal with such 'spoilers', and have been very successful in doing so. However, this issue is trans-national - what to do? Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Turkey do not allow insurgents to operate from their territory (although the majority of foreign fighters are Saudi), and are not complicit in the movement of foreign fighters to Iraq. Syria and Iran do, at the least, allow such networks to exist - to pretend that much of anything happens in totalitarian police states like Syria and Iran that the regimes do not know about, especially involving the movement of large numbers of young men, is ludicrous.

8- Syria proved unwilling to deal with the problem on its soil. Importantly, it is also unable to retaliate against the US - starting a wider war over this issue, at this time, would be dangerous and ill-considered. So, a known insurgent base with a high-profile leader was attacked by relatively miniscule forces - 8-10 soldiers on the ground, a few helicopters.  Perhaps this will make Syria or Iran pause and reconsider - if so, it is worth it. Even if the flow of extremists into Iraq is slowed, temporarily, it is well worth the work of less than a dozen soldiers and a half dozen air crew.

9- You believe innocents died in this attack. Unfortunately, it is unlikely conclusive proof of this will ever be available. You'll never believe the US reports, and I'll never believe that the Syrians didn't rig this for publicity.  So, until disinterested aliens come down, with 3-D colour and full sound recordings of every detail of the attack, we'll have to let that one lie.

 

[PAT-Platoon]

Ok, it's a quiet night - I'll bite.

1- According to Western and international legal tradition, national sovereignty and territory integrity are not absolute. There are many cases when outside powers and organizations are expected to intervene, with military force, inside a sovereign nation.  Only China, Russia, N. Korea, et. al., dispute this.  Examples of justfied intervention might include NATO in Bosnia and Kosovo, East Timor, Somalia 1992-93, Britain in Sierra Leone, and many, many others.  The precedent was set long ago, and was most recently embodied, officially, in the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes.

2- Sovereignty can be violated when a nation state fails to treat it's citizens in a humane manner, or when a state is unable or unwilling to exercise control of it's territory, which is the case in this example.  You used the example of Cuba attacking terrorists in Florida. That is not a reasonable example - the US Government is able to control it's territory, making action by Cuba unnecessary. Cuba, in this case is left with other options which it can rationally choose to take - decide getting rid of these terrorists is worth war with the US, use other means (assassination, like Russia uses on dissidents), or go to a international organization. However, unless a state has no other options, it is unlikely to trust an international committee with its own security and the lives of its citizens. But I digres.

3- The existence of networks that facilitated the movement of foreign volunteers into Iraq, through Syria, was well known and well documented, even as the first US troops crossed the Iraqi border in 2003.  It has been discussed many times by American and Iraqi leaders and media commentators and 'experts'. Yes, a large degree of the Iraqi insurgency was carried out by Iraqis - but a siginificant part of the worst attacks, such as suicide bombings, were carried out by foreigners. In the past year, as the situation in Iraq stablilized, common Iraqis were less interested in civil war, and foreign fighters became more prominent.  I'll refer you to the "Iraqi Insurgency" article in Wikipedia (yes, I realize it's not the ideal source, but frankly it's a good place to start, and I'm not going to troll the 'net finding sources).

4- This is not news to Syria. The insurgent networks in Syria were a subject of discussion between US and Syrian leadership since the US invaded - however, Syria (and Iran) perceives it's best interests to be served by exercising a degree of control over the insurgency, allowing them to gain from the eventual outcome. For five years Syria has chosen to allow these networks to exist on their soil. Likely, they were allowed exist in limited and tightly controlled circumstances.  For a similar example, but of what can go wrong, look up the experience of Jordan and the PLO - Black September, 1970. 

5- Whether you were for the invasion of Iraq or against it is immaterial at this time - we have the war we have, and the question for decision makers is how to deal with the problems we have now. Your immediate reaction may be "Withdraw!" or "Negotiate a settlement!". Withdrawal, at this stage, would equal chaos. A negotiated settlement - between who? Should Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the US sit down and carve up a new Iraq?  Should domestic extremist parties - Shia and Sunni - divide up the country between hateful, warring sides?

6- I think that the solution Gen. Petraeus (and others) have started forward is a good one - neighbourhood solutions, local settlement of issues, local security - and the statistics agree with this assessment, although the future remains shaky.  I believe that the option presented by the US (increased local security, gradual withdrawal of US troops) is the best option for Iraq, and although imperfect, far better than alternatives. Therefore, individuals/entities/groups/states that attempt to interfere with this process - and in so doing, cause massive death, destruction and harm to many innocents - need to be halted. I'll call these individuals 'spoilers', as they have a singular goal: prevent the solution advanced by the US, at any cost.

7- Within Iraq, Iraqi and US forces are able to deal with such 'spoilers', and have been very successful in doing so. However, this issue is trans-national - what to do? Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Turkey do not allow insurgents to operate from their territory (although the majority of foreign fighters are Saudi), and are not complicit in the movement of foreign fighters to Iraq. Syria and Iran do, at the least, allow such networks to exist - to pretend that much of anything happens in totalitarian police states like Syria and Iran that the regimes do not know about, especially involving the movement of large numbers of young men, is ludicrous.

8- Syria proved unwilling to deal with the problem on its soil. Importantly, it is also unable to retaliate against the US - starting a wider war over this issue, at this time, would be dangerous and ill-considered. So, a known insurgent base with a high-profile leader was attacked by relatively miniscule forces - 8-10 soldiers on the ground, a few helicopters.  Perhaps this will make Syria or Iran pause and reconsider - if so, it is worth it. Even if the flow of extremists into Iraq is slowed, temporarily, it is well worth the work of less than a dozen soldiers and a half dozen air crew.

9- You believe innocents died in this attack. Unfortunately, it is unlikely conclusive proof of this will ever be available. You'll never believe the US reports, and I'll never believe that the Syrians didn't rig this for publicity.  So, until disinterested aliens come down, with 3-D colour and full sound recordings of every detail of the attack, we'll have to let that one lie.

Some very relevant and good points regarding sovereignty and absolutism. I agree, territorial sovereignty is not absolute and other nations do have justifications for impinging on that. Let me make myself clear, I am not making a blanket statement against the need to sometimes go outside of territorial boundaries. However I think I have argued effectively in my previous posts that in this case it was not warranted, and detrimental to the United States' situation in the Middle East. One must understand, and look at it from other perspectives. For instance in this case it brings the question of "If I were a Syrian or Middle Easterner, how would I see such an act?"?. This type of question really brings some interesting perspectives into play and does show that these kind of acts can be detrimental to the spirit of international and foreign relations. Thats why I believe that this excursion was wrong. However you bring in a valid point, how do we balance the need for the proper spirit, while still keeping the security interests at hand. In that case I would look to further foster better relationships with the neighbours in the Middle East so incursions like this would not be necessary in the future, instead I think this simply furthers the divide.

With that in mind Enfield I am very much in gratitude for your well thought out post, this is the sort of debate I am interested in. One of issues and topics, not the supposed loyalties, integrities and character of each person arguing.

@OverWatch

You can continue to twist my words on 9/11 to suit your purposes, but nowhere did I state that the USA deserved it. This is merely you putting words into my mouth to simply create a strawman that can be easily taken down. As for your character assassinations, I believe that what you are posting will be shown for what it is, simply attacks on my character and not on the issues I brought up. You may not like me as a person, or of my supposed character or integrity, however you have yet to debate my actual points that I brought up.

-C/D

 

[tango22a]

Hey Guys:

If We ignore the TROLL maybe he'll ESFOAD!!

tango22a

 

[enfield]

However I think I have argued effectively in my previous posts that in this case it was not warranted, and detrimental to the United States' situation in the Middle East. One must understand, and look at it from other perspectives. For instance in this case it brings the question of "If I were a Syrian or Middle Easterner, how would I see such an act?"?. This type of question really brings some interesting perspectives into play and does show that these kind of acts can be detrimental to the spirit of international and foreign relations. Thats why I believe that this excursion was wrong.

1- Foreign fighters have been flowing through Syria into Iraq for five years, causing massive destruction and loss of life, with the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian regime.  Syrian leadership believes it has a vested interest in maintaing the Iraqi insurgency and ensuring chaos, just as it believes it has a role in maintaining anarchy in Lebanon and fighting a proxy war through Hezbollah with Israel. 

2- If I were a Syrian, I would be unhappy that my government was intentionally fomenting unrest in Iraq, and that my governmet had given up a degree of national sovereignty by allowing armed foreigners to act from my soil.  I would see the role my government played in civil strife in Lebanon and Iraq, it's mad pursuit of nuclear weapons, and a continual support for extremists it can't really control or manage.  Generally, I would be embarassed that Syria constantly places itself in an aggressive regional position, and be consistently slapped down for it.   

3- Frankly, the view of a Syrian or Middle Easterner is largely irrelevant at this point: the view that matters is of the US leaders who are accountable to their soldiers, their soldiers families, and are responsible for fixing the mess in Iraq. US leadership that ok'd this raid were acting in the best interests of the stakeholders that mattered.  Syria itself is largely a pariah state, and it's regional neighbours are likely quite happy to see it slapped a bit.  The US'  response was proportionate, if not cautious - 8-10 soldiers and a few helicopters does not begin to describe what the US could inflict on Syria, at the drop of a hat, should it choose too.  Or, observe the news from the Afghan - Pakistan border - almost weekly strikes. Syria got off easy.

4- What "international and foreign relations"?? The fact that if a State is complicit in acts that kill US troops and cause anarchy in another country, that the US will come knocking, is hardly a surprise and I would expect it of any nation.  To the best of my knowledge, relations were barely altered by this laregly symbolic raid - Syria remains a pariah, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait still sell us oil, Iran carries on it's agenda, although maybe a little more circumspectly, and Israel continues on. The true result is that a network that imported suicide bombers that carried out mass casualty attacks on Iraqi civilians was disrupted.

5- What was the alternative? I know of no international law, organization or process that could deal with Syrian and Iranian support for foreign fighters in Iraq. Syria will carry this policy forward until they think they will benefit from a negotiated solution - a solution that pushes the US out, and installs Pro-Syria and Iranian leaders in a fragmented Iraq. Syria has been complicit for five years in moving insurgents into Iraq, a fact that has been protested many times. If Syria is unhappy with the repercussions - easy. Stop allowing terrorists to come from your soil. 

 

[1feral1]

Enfiled, this TROLL is just feeding off us, he does not even have a clue what debate really means. He simply wants to feed off the emotions of real soldiers, and gets some cheap thrill from that, along with emphasising his pro terrorist political views. Best let him starve and he will find another site to express his anti US anti and Canada sentiment.
Pretty sad when someone in our own uniform has crossed over to the other sides politcal beliefs, that is if he really is a serving member.

For the record, I like others, love a good debate, and I respect those opinions of others who can have their say, but this INDIVIDUAL is over the top, and his AGENDA is being flaunted in front of our own eyes. We all can agree that this INDIVIDUAL loves stirring the pot.

Simply a classic example of why some animals in the wild eat their young.

He's on IGNORE from now on, and no doubt on Mod Doppler 4!

Meanwhile,  op:

Cold beers,

OWDU

 

[tango22a]

Will some kind moderator Please Lock this down,thanks. This thread has become pointless at this time.

For the gentlemen that stood up to this TROLL....a BIG Thank You, as I have been off-'net for five days and this TROLL persists in beating a dead horse! He's not getting anywhere and we're just wasting time and giving ourselves major headaches.


NOT very cheerfully,

tango22a

 

[George Wallace]

We have a motion on the Floor.

Seconded by Wes.

 

[Fusaki]

I'd like Cog-Dis to have one last shot at addressing every one of Enfield's points from both of his posts individually.

If he won't do that, then there's no doubt in anyone's mind that he's just here to troll.

If he does do it, he'll have to deal with the points at which is logic falls apart head on.

 

[tango22a]

Cog-Dis says his Heart goes out to those who were slaughtered. I'm glad he has a Heart because he definitely doesn't have Two brain cells to rub together!

tango22a

 

[GAP]

I'd like Cog-Dis to have one last shot at addressing every one of Enfield's points from both of his posts individually.

If he won't do that, then there's no doubt in anyone's mind that he's just here to troll.

If he does do it, he'll have to deal with the points at which is logic falls apart head on.

Right after he finishes his evening shift at Timmies.....

 

[1feral1]

We have a motion on the Floor.

Seconded by Wes.

Yes, confirmed.

Seriously now, if this INDIVIDUAL responds, we will hear nothing but more anti US propaganda, pro enemy sympathy, and the denouncing of our governments for being in this war, which in my opinion shows disrespect for those of our brethern who have fallen, and those wounded, and those that have served there. I've had a giant gutfull of this weak and one sided INDIVIDUAL.

Not so seriously now....

If I was a rich MF, I'd buy Cog-Dis/Army Goon a one way ticket (coach class, sorry no 1st class) to Shyteland (AKA various fronts on this GWAT), so he can help the other side, and be sympathetic to their cause, maybe he can take that Khadir terrorist mob with him too (but they can go crated in the cargo hold)?

Again seriously...

Until then, lets put a dirty-great-big-giant PADLOCK on this thread quicksmart!

Cheers from a tropical rainy spring day,

OWDU