Tac Vest does not make the grade.

[KevinB]

Ah, i can see where the confusion is. Yeah, i should have stated that i intend to keep the plates in the flak vest and just use the plate carrier only as a molle platform over top.

Fortunately this piece of kit actually fits well over my flak vest/plates. It's a good thing too becuase the plates have to be in the flak vest, not only for liability reasons but because first aiders need to be able to remove load carrying equipment from patients while leaving them with their ppe, so having your plates in your load carrying equipment outside of your flak jacket will create many problems there.

And AFAIK, there's no piece of kit out there specifically designed to be worn over a flak vest containing plates that fit my specific needs.

Dude -- not sure where you got that idea from - but why would they remove your LBE and keep your Plates on?
  1St Responders will CUT your armor right off if need be - it does not matter what you are wearing -

IF you are not needing a plate carrier (and you dont if your leaving your plates in that woeful CF issues FPV) All you need is something like the TT MAV.

 

[MG34]

Ah, i can see where the confusion is. Yeah, i should have stated that i intend to keep the plates in the flak vest and just use the plate carrier only as a molle platform over top.

Fortunately this piece of kit actually fits well over my flak vest/plates. It's a good thing too becuase the plates have to be in the flak vest, not only for liability reasons but because first aiders need to be able to remove load carrying equipment from patients while leaving them with their ppe, so having your plates in your load carrying equipment outside of your flak jacket will create many problems there.

And AFAIK, there's no piece of kit out there specifically designed to be worn over a flak vest containing plates that fit my specific needs.

The whole idea of a plate carrier is to "carry" the plates, like I-6 said if you insist on keeping the plates in the inadequate issued vest plate pockets all you need is a chest rig of some sort. If you are hit your PPE will be cut off to reach the wound (s) it will not stay with you for long if at all depending on the nature of the injury.

Edditted to add: There are no liability concerns regardless of what you are wearing at the time of your injury

 

[McG]

However, if removal of armour is not required to access the injury it will stay in place so that it can continue to protect.  The same may not be true of bulky load carraige equipment which only serves as a pain in the butt for those handing the casualty. 

 

[KevinB]

Okay - seen.

However if I pull a casualty from a vehicle etc -- its a lot easier to drop his armor first. It also makes for a much easier primary and secondary surveys.  I can always drape the armor over the cas on a  spine board or stretcher if need be as well.

 

[spr_sldr]

The major flaw ive seen with the TV and what alot of guys that have been to the gan say is the mag capacity or incapacity and id have to agree. I almost miss webbing at times for the simple fact that you could go to a surplus store grab some mag pouches and load up.
You look at the options offered to other forces and in their issued camopats. Things like the STRIKE vests a MOLLE gear full body vest and plate carrier, with shoulder, full neck and groin plates and side kevlar, the system is lituarly neck to waist protection and customizable area. The TV reminds me of the single purpose tac vests used by SWAT and Urban police, built to fuction, but barely and with the help of duty and eqt belts.
Then theres the issue of why cant we use aftermarket vests and rigs, and someone with a higher pay grade then me always says "well what if you get hit ur fireteam partner wont know where your eqt and ammo is." you know what, if my fireteam partner overseas dont know where my ammo and first aid kits are then he's failed at :brickwall: :brickwall: his job, you should always know your buddies kit. :brickwall:

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Our SOP was the right most pouch on any rig is where your first aid stuff was held.

 

[MG34]

However, if removal of armour is not required to access the injury it will stay in place so that it can continue to protect.  The same may not be true of bulky load carraige equipment which only serves as a pain in the butt for those handing the casualty. 

Any load carriage equipment will be removed regardless..I'm not getting your point here. The PPE will be removed in almost all cases to conduct a secondary survey for additional wounds  so the point is moot. We do not conduct cas evac during firefights except in the case of a grave injury, all cas management is conducted out of the fight in a "safer area" the cas has little immediate need for PPE.

 

[McG]

..I'm not getting your point here.

My point is in response to this:

... why would they remove your LBE and keep your Plates on?
  1St Responders will CUT your armor right off if need be - it does not matter what you are wearing -

As has been pointed out, if there is a need the PPE will come off.  Need can be a number of things from access to primary injury, secondary searches, or to pull a pers from a confined space.  However, there are no "safe" areas as even the CCP and medivac birds can take enemy fire.  If there is no need for armour to come off, it should stay on (and you have recognized in your post that it does not always come off).  As you & I have also stated, the same is not true of load carriage equipment - it is a pain in the butt so off it comes.

Therefore, there are times (even if it is not the majority of times) where one would remove load carriage equipment but not armour.

 

[brihard]

My point is in response to this:As has been pointed out, if there is a need the PPE will come off.  Need can be a number of things from access to primary injury, secondary searches, or to pull a pers from a confined space.  However, there are no "safe" areas as even the CCP and medivac birds can take enemy fire.  If there is no need for armour to come off, it should stay on (and you have recognized in your post that it does not always come off).  As you & I have also stated, the same is not true of load carriage equipment - it is a pain in the butt so off it comes.

Therefore, there are times (even if it is not the majority of times) where one would remove load carriage equipment but not armour.

I can actually expand on this, having done the TCCC course not too long ago. Take this for what it's worth- what I was taught by the 2 Fd Amb guys. I won't profess to be an expert myself.

We were taught to open the armour as necessary to conduct surveys and to treat, but in asmuch as possible to refasten the armour as soon as it's feasible to do so. Generally when treating cas we'll lie prone with the casualty between us and the direction of contact, open the side of the armour closest to us, and work that way. Even if we have to drop everything and fight, the armour will simply flop back onto the casualty. Tacvests and load bearing kit will probably be cut off if necessary to get at the wound, and in either case will be set aside so the 2ic can salvage ammo and the like as soon as we have a chance to remove it from the casualty. However under all circumstances the PPE is to remain with and on the casualty unless it's absolutely medically necessary to remove it. The frag vest can be thrown back on very quickly, if haphazardly- velcro is good for that. During tactical field care I'm as worried about my casualty incurring new wounds as I am about the injuries already incurred. Even if we're in ongoing casualty care/CASEVAC, it's dangerous to assume that you or the casualty are safe. Incidentally, the armour is also useful for stabilizing flail chest, protecting abdominal eviscerations (on top of a CF dressing), and the like.

If there's one thing to bring away for this, it's to make sure that your load carriage is NOT carrying your hard armour- because we want your armour on you at all times, and your 2ic probably wants all that ammo and pyro and other violent goodness you've draped on and about yourself. We haven't time to go separating the two. If you're going to wear a plate carrier to keep your equipment, do the medics and TCCCs (and yourself) a favour and leave your plate inside your frag vest.

 

[KevinB]

So so when your vehicle rolls or the chopper is down -- and the vest and PPE are in the way -- is it not easier to pull a handle and leave it all there?

I really dont need a lecture on Combat Casualty Care, however I will offer that if you are not returning fire in a TIC and are working on wounded you have deprived the unit of a weapon to win the firefight.  Self Aid, Buddy Aid, Medic Aid...

  Secondly all one needs to do is strip mags or frags from the pouch on the armor system and dish them out -- its not rocket science, and many times the cas will still need to be in the fight so until he boards the bird he is keeping his gear.

Having said that some roles do not fit well with pouches affixed to the PPE, the LBE needs to be quick release - and a Benchmade Safety Tool is not a quick release as sometime ichy has to wear it again in that fight.

 

[brihard]

So so when your vehicle rolls or the chopper is down -- and the vest and PPE are in the way -- is it not easier to pull a handle and leave it all there?

I really dont need a lecture on Combat Casualty Care, however I will offer that if you are not returning fire in a TIC and are working on wounded you have deprived the unit of a weapon to win the firefight.  Self Aid, Buddy Aid, Medic Aid...

  Secondly all one needs to do is strip mags or frags from the pouch on the armor system and dish them out -- its not rocket science, and many times the cas will still need to be in the fight so until he boards the bird he is keeping his gear.

Having said that some roles do not fit well with pouches affixed to the PPE, the LBE needs to be quick release - and a Benchmade Safety Tool is not a quick release as sometime ichy has to wear it again in that fight.

I6, I wasn't trying to step on your toes there- my reply was more for the benefit of anyone reading this than for you specifically. I don't think for a second that you've got anything to learn from me, but then you're hardly representative of the average member of this site, either.

A couple points I just want to clarify in my own defense- I was mostly referring to tactical field care, not care under fire. Obviously during a TIC I wouldn't be treating the casualty; I'm returning fire like everyone else. I'm not sure if the training you've gotten breaks down the same phases our TCCC curriculum does- care under fire (self aid, tell the cas to put on a tourniquet, win the firefight), tactical field care (TCCC/Medic treatment in a tactical environment with no immediate threat) and then CASEVAC. I think we just have different terminology for the same thing. I wouldn't for a second suggest treating a casualty while under fire. Maybe I phrased things poorly, but I'm not an idiot.

I had thought I added that if required to extract a casualty, sure, we'll ditch the PPE, and hopefully it can be recovered at a later time. Apparently I left that out of my post though. You're absolutely right that in that situation it could be necessary. I understand and appreciate the simplicity of a system such as a RAV, or CIRAS, or other releaseable fully integral system. Given that we are all under orders to wear the issued soft frag vest however, it makes sense that since we're stuck with it anyway we might as well keep our plates in with it for the reasons I went into in my last reply. Sadly few of us enjoy the same leeway you have. If we were at liberty to use our own PPE complete, sure, there would be better options than what we have. But since we're stuck with the frag vest, what we've been taught seems to be what makes the most sense. If I'm treating a casualty I'd prefer their PPE stay with them, and I've probably got more pressing matters than stripping their kit, hence I'd want to toss the LBE aside for the 2ic to pillage as necessary.

Anything you've got to enlighten me I'm obviously willing to hear it; we just have some pain in the ass restrictions to take into account. That of course goes for anyone whose operational experience contradicts that which we were taught. PPE with the casualty, LBE set aside was the rule of thumb we were given though.

The C.F. does still have some serious progress to make with regards to armour and load carriage, we all know that. Hopefully the next developments take tactical medical care into account as well. I'm not privy to what the SOFCOM types are using, but I imagine (or hope?) that they're a bit more ahead of the curve in this than the rest of the C.F., and that some lessons can be brought across for the benefit of us common folk.

 

[KevinB]

Brihard -- I was not trying to scold you - but offer why I had problems with both the TV and PPE that the CF issues.

FYI the US issue IOTV is a releaseable system, withthe majority of injuries here due to blast in vehicle IED attacks - and vehicle fired and trapped soldiers are a major issue, as well as helo crashes and subsequent problems are the #3 cause of death here (and #1 in Afghan) so the releaseable system makes sence.

US Strykers have larger turret opening so the system is not an issue in the turret.  I have yet to see any of the 12 MGS here leave the gate (or move more than a foot) so I dont knwo what their turret guys wear or how they configure the IOTV.

 

[Rummer]

  I am currently here and let me tell you the battle over the vest rages on . We have been given the OK on one end to bye chest rigs , but the other end squashed it ,so the vest it is .I am a driver of a LAV3 so is the vest a issue for me sure is .I have done more dismounted patrols with the vest here than back home with more ammo . They always say if you can identify the problem have a solution , so here's mine MODULAR . If you can configure the vest to fit your needs were is the problem. The issued Tac Vest , it only allows me to carry 5 mags including one on my weapon .I'm issued 10 see the problem . Even if the TV could carry 10 the are situated so hi up in the prone they are are hard to access and then there's the buckles trying to undo buckles and then redo the buckles is stupid give me Velcro and not a little I want big over hanging covers so even in a hurry I can still secure my mags easy not mention the buckles blow apart at the slightest gust of wind or diving to the ground and then I'm stuck with a insecure set of mags .When damaged , the vest must be removed of all contents then cleaned then turned in at the local CQ or SQ then replened which is a pain in the Infantry's *** . With the modular , simply remove the damaged piece and replace it . The old web gear ,which I couldn't wear if I wanted is on the right track but still has it's own problems which I wont get into . This is the year 2008 is it not . I say this because the days of making due don't cut it for me . I know we all need to be the same but , I use the hockey player as a example , If you ever looked at a NHL player not one player to the next has the exact same kit on so why do we , they all play on the same team with the same goal in mind win . I know some say  we are the same so we can find kit in each others vest but those essential pieces can still be located in all the same spots just simply give the order and we all follow . I am seeing C-9 , M203 gunners C-6 teams struggling to find spots for the issued amount of ammo the standard TV doesn't have the room . I noticed one member said he just threw it on his back well I tried it it is not practical . If you come under contact having ammo on your back seems a little time consuming to drop the bag undo buckles dig into the bag re-do the buckles , of course that always happens when under contact reload and carry on . It may be just me but, doesn't that seem a little hard to believe that all this would all happen in about 2 seconds ,not likely .If I could access the ammo on my front I think I would be more effective in a Fire Fight . I think I've dragged this on long enough and ultimately we are all on board that the Issued Tac Vest sucks , the Higher UPS know it is a issue but still we have the Tac Vest how long does it take to get action , I guess a long time but do the members really care when we are on the ground struggling with this vest in fire fights making due ,I personally don't think so . I'm not a big fan of spending my money on kit we should have issued but I would if I could .

 

[dangerboy]

Muddy Duck, you are not alone in your thinking (hence the 20+ pages). All I can suggest is fill out a UCR on the vest so you can complain officially. When I was over there we had the same problem and it took going on a major operation (Op MEDUSA) for them to allow us to use chest rigs and other style equipment.

 

[Rummer]

Thanks for the tip but we are all one step ahead of you ,I  got the Company to do it earlier in training when we were in Texas haven't seen much action on it though wierd ............must be almost ready for action by know right ...... right HA HA HA HA HA HA .

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I am a driver of a LAV3 so is the vest a issue for me sure is .I have done more dismounted patrols with the vest here than back home with more ammo .

I though the driver never dismounts.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I though the driver never dismounts.

There's plenty of time where crews might find themselves in as dismounted/light infantry roles.  With the Canadian infantry going towards an optimized/affiliated battlegroup structure, we could very well find a 'historically' mechanized battalion being placed into a mission that was more suited to a light organization.  1VP and 2RCR both recently conducted exercises in Hawaii and Germany respectively without their LAVs, acting more in the role of light/motorized infantry, whereby the traditional crew/section structure was amended.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I know we all need to be the same but , I use the hockey player as a example , If you ever looked at a NHL player not one player to the next has the exact same kit on so why do we , they all play on the same team with the same goal in mind win .

Hockey players don't get RPGs and AKs fired at them all the time. It's frustrating to see you guys having to put up with all this. I'm sure that one of these days it will get straightened out. (Yes, I am a glass half full kind of guy!)

 

[riggermade]

Once all the dino's leave maybe it will be easier...before I got out in jan '06, 2 Svc Bn was going on Ex and the big concern was going into a hide...I was looked at like I had two heads when I suggested maybe convoy drills were more pertinent than going into or out of a hide

 

[daftandbarmy]

Once all the dino's leave maybe it will be easier...before I got out in jan '06, 2 Svc Bn was going on Ex and the big concern was going into a hide...I was looked at like I had two heads when I suggested maybe convoy drills were more pertinent than going into or out of a hide

You darned trouble makers are all the same. Next thing you know you'll be expecting Svc Bn types to do anti-ambush drills.... the kind where you actually close with and seriously destroy the enemy 

BTW, I've seen log troops doing very good cordon and search ops as well  as anti-ambush drills. Never get between a fitter and his/her mug of hot cocoa..