Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

[PuckChaser]

Glad everyone giving a statement to the media lists how much explosives the vehicle can sustain and at what points, so our enemies can add +5 and know its going to work...

 

[Underway]

I think there is some confusion on how to actually do armoured recce here, or at least the Cdn/NATO doctrine.

Canada DOES NOT do recce by fire for armoured recce.  Recce requires at a minimum 4 dismounts to do properly.  This is the problem with the Coyote in the first place.  It was an excellent surveillence package but a bad recce one as it didn't carry enough dismounts and was too big to go many places.  I know a number of guys who would rather to recce in G-Wagons as they are very good a sneaking around relatively speaking.  Armoured recce when done properly is to maintain contact with the enemy while not being in contact with the enemy.  This means if you are getting hit with or engaging in heavy fire you are doing it wrong adn should be popping smoke and running away.  You park your vehicles (usually 2-4) back a ways and then move to your recce position on foot.  Then when you need to you get back in your vehicle and move to a new place.  Read "The Bear and the Dragon" by Tom Clancey for a good fictional example of how to do this (russian armoured recce).

Armoured recce is used to define the movement, size and type of the enemy.  It is also used to identify routes, jump off points and inital objectives or starting objectives.  In order to ID routes properly you have to get out of the vehicle and look at, test the ground to see if the follow on troops vehicle can pass.  Also route checks for IED's, minefields, hazards and obstacles require you to get out of the vehicle.  The number 4 here is key again, as these sorts of searches and support work best with half a dismounted section per vehicle, something we learned before afghanistan only to be reinforced when looking for IED's.  Idealy for routes you want a wheeled vehicle doing recce for wheels and tracks doing recce for tracks.

The recce platoon (infantry) are used to take starting objectives, and further define the enemy.  They also are the BG commanders manouver element.  Armoured recce traditionaly belong to an OC.

So in looking at the purchase here I can't say that its a bad choice.  We've got the 4 dismounts required, .50cal/C6 and 40mil GL combined RWS to give it some serious suppressive firepower vs other light vehicles and dismounts which is all it really needs.  It seems to have good mobility helped by the wheel hight/suspension, and that will also increase survivability vs mines/IED's as the best armour is distance.  There are some concerns regarding the height but all the competators had height issues IMHO.  It also has the ability to plunk on a surveillence package.
Without the extra stuff required for recce then it has the space available to move troops around the battlespace or carry what they need.

It's wheeled so it will be doing recce for LAV's, Bison family, Cougars, Huskies, Buffalo's etc...  I don't think we have the luxury of having two types of recce for tracks and otherwise so we will have to make due.  The reserves will have to make due with continuing to do armoured recce in G-wagons without turret rings. 

All in all not a bad purchase considering what the requirements were, the other competition that bid on the process and the fact that  the RG-31 and Coyotes will be retired.  Now if we can just fix those engine fires on the new ML's...

http://www.casr.ca/bg-army-tapv-textron-msv.htm

here for a pic of the suveillence possibilites

http://defense-update.com/features/2009/october/msv_m1117_141009.html

 

[Tank Troll]

First off thanks for that insight and instruction on how to do Armour Recce. I think I will reread that book you recommend by Tom Clancy. A fiction writer has so much to offer to me when I'm doing my job for real, especially Russian Recce tactics, (know your enemy and all) 

Now I'm a little confused does BG stand for Brigade Commander or Battle Group commander. Either way I'm sure last time I was in Recce Sqn (it was from and Armoured Regiment  ) we worked for the the Brigade/ Battle Group Commander and 60 (the Infantry Recce dudes) worked directly for the unit Commander they belonged to. The Armour units have a 60 element all so. I don't however remember working for and OC, unless my patrol was handing over a contact, or leadind him to an assembly area, or he was passing through my VCP. All though after being in the Armour Corp for 29 years I've banged my head a number of times and have had a few concussions my memory is not what it use to be. 

I'm also sure last time I dismounted with my patrol there was 3 other guys with me. Me Commander 1, My gib 2, My Jr C/S gib 3, and his Gunner 4,  Yaaaay there is your magic number 4.

Again remember, head trauma, concussions, and old age, but having my Op base 2-4 km from my Op seems a loooong way to go to get back in a hurry if I have to colapse my screen, plus my optic cable is only 200m long.

I see you manged to name off several task for Recce and the kinda roll of recce but it wouldn't get you a passing mark on the final exam for DP3 ARCC

How about Flank Security, or Point Recce, or Area Recce? How well will this Vehicle perform in those rolls? Well lets break down the acronym TAPV.
Tactical
Armoured
Patrol
Vehicle

Hmmmmm didn't see the word Recce in there anywhere? I guess it will not do well in these areas. Saw the word Patrol there hmmmmmm wonder what that could mean?

Couple of other question aren't IEDs hazards? Can mines be used as IEDs? If there are a whole bunch together is it a IED field, or is it a mine field?

Psst don't tell any one I have 6 LUVW with turret rings on them, shhhhhh!!!  Those other dudes on the Island have 16, and them guys in NB, have like 18 or so, and we are all reservist.  We got told that we will be allowed to play with the big boys toys also.......... but they also told us they were only borrowing our bisions.

You are right about distance being the best armour for IEDs, I personally like to have at least a Km distance from them, or more if possible.  :nod:

Wait,wait I do remember working for an OC....................naaaaa doesn't count he was my OC when I was in Recce Sqn.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Last I looked 60 was armoured recce.

My call sign.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Anyone who drove (read: wrecked) an RG-31 in Panjwaii should have nothing to fear. And by this, I speak from the experience of my sect. setting the fastest turnaround time with them - under six hours from repaired, back into Medusa, back on a flatbed with a snapped axle.

Really hope this unit is able to off-road.


Chimo

Because the rg31 isn't supposed to replace a lav 3.
Not even close.

 

[Franko]

I think there is some confusion on how to actually do armoured recce here, or at least the Cdn/NATO doctrine.

As someone that is a SME on this, I'm already chuckling.

Armoured recce is used to define the movement, size and type of the enemy.  It is also used to identify routes, jump off points and inital objectives or starting objectives.

We do alot more than that. Nice general overview though.

In order to ID routes properly you have to get out of the vehicle and look at, test the ground to see if the follow on troops vehicle can pass.  Also route checks for IED's, minefields, hazards and obstacles require you to get out of the vehicle.  The number 4 here is key again, as these sorts of searches and support work best with half a dismounted section per vehicle, something we learned before afghanistan only to be reinforced when looking for IED's.  Idealy for routes you want a wheeled vehicle doing recce for wheels and tracks doing recce for tracks.

So now we're working in an Afghanistan environment and we should stay that course and not return to our wartime doctrine?

Why a wheeled vehicle for roads and a track vehicle for tracks? Bit over the top to split a fleet and hinder your mobility.

They also are the BG commanders manouver element.  Armoured recce traditionaly belong to an OC.

No. The Recce Sqn belongs to the Brigade commander.

So in looking at the purchase here I can't say that its a bad choice.  We've got the 4 dismounts required, .50cal/C6 and 40mil GL combined RWS to give it some serious suppressive firepower vs other light vehicles and dismounts which is all it really needs.  It seems to have good mobility helped by the wheel hight/suspension, and that will also increase survivability vs mines/IED's as the best armour is distance.  There are some concerns regarding the height but all the competators had height issues IMHO.  It also has the ability to plunk on a surveillence package.
Without the extra stuff required for recce then it has the space available to move troops around the battlespace or carry what they need.

Again, more retoric about the last war and not our doctrine. You clearly have no back ground in Armoured Recce or if you do it's a  basic understanding.

Regards

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I think there is some confusion on how to actually do armoured recce here, or at least the Cdn/NATO doctrine.

Canada DOES NOT do recce by fire for armoured recce.    Armoured recce when done properly is to maintain contact with the enemy while not being in contact with the enemy.  Armoured recce is used to define the movement, size and type of the enemy.  It is also used to identify routes, jump off points and inital objectives or starting objectives. 

Canadian doctrine does indeed allow for recconnaissance by fire. This can be found in Ground Manouevre Reconnaissance. Recce by fire comes with all sorts of limitations, but it is a method that can be employed if the estimate of the situation calls for it. I am not advocating that we employ recce by fire as out go-to method, but I am wondering what authority/experience you are drawing on to make your proclamations?

Regarding armoured recce and infantry recce, both will use this platform. Armoured recce Troops will be composite (a Patrol will have one LAV and one TAPV) while the infantry recce will be purely TAPV based.  Armoured recce (also called "medium recce") finds the enemy while infantry recce (also called "close recce") defines the enemy. Armoured recce usually, but not always, works for a formation commander while infantry recce works for a battalion commander. Armoured recce would report that an enemy company was in given location, with some information on the general layout of the platoons and the major obstacles. Infantry recce would provide a detailed breakdown of the enemy positions. The practice sees some overlap between infantry and armoured recce, but the theory works.

Now, I do agree that recce troops (of all kinds) must be prepared to dismount. This is true regardless of platform. Even with Coyotes my Patrol Commanders were usually dismounting short of crestlines to get a look on foot first. Time permitting, they performed much of their work on foot, but in fairly close proximity to their vehicles. 

 

[cupper]

Here is a question for all those who have the background and experience:

What war are we looking at fighting with respect to this purchase?

Are we still looking at the massed armies on the German frontier from the Cold War, are we looking at involvement in low level conflicts between third world nations / factions, or are we looking at going back to peace making / peace keeping missions?

Or does it even matter? Is this platform adaptable enough to be useful in any level of conflict?

 

[brihard]

Here is a question for all those who have the background and experience:

What war are we looking at fighting with respect to this purchase?

Are we still looking at the massed armies on the German frontier from the Cold War, are we looking at involvement in low level conflicts between third world nations / factions, or are we looking at going back to peace making / peace keeping missions?

Or does it even matter? Is this platform adaptable enough to be useful in any level of conflict?

I could see this being useful as a patrol vehicle / battle taxi in roles such as convoy escort, MILOBS, peacekeeping presence patrols, moving around of smaller elements (IA, OMLT, stuff like that) and so on and so forth. For a conventional conflict though? Too big for recce, too soft for a real fight...

Don't get me wrong, nice to have in the toolbox if we assume a major power war isn't imminent.

 

[ArmyRick]

Is this a tail wagging the dog type of situation?

Here is a thing-a-mi-gig, find a use for it.

 

[McG]

Is this a tail wagging the dog type of situation?

Here is a thing-a-mi-gig, find a use for it.

Maybe.  Sometimes good ideas come from outside the process and we get a piece of outstanding kit that we really need (the new Leopards would be an example).  Other times, someone decides we are going to get a square peg - the requirements folk then spend a lot of time massaging that peg to best fit a round hole, but the initial idea always constrains the end product so the right fit is never achieved.

 

[GnyHwy]

the requirements folk then spend a lot of time massaging that peg to best fit a round hole, but the initial idea always constrains the end product so the right fit is never achieved.

Very true!  The reqs folks do have good intentions, and they are not far from operational troops; they were operational troops not too long ago.  Yes, they have pressure from high above, but they strive to make the best solution possible.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

These vehicle would likely also be a good fit for some of the Armoured Reserve units, not over taxing on the logistical system and can drive to the training areas.

Question does any of the reg force units do the "classic sneak and peek recce" anymore? I knew it was the core mission for the reserve armoured units in their M38's and iltises.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think there is some confusion on how to actually do armoured recce here, or at least the Cdn/NATO doctrine.

I don't think you know the audience here then.  Some of the folks here have forgotten more about Armd Recce than most people will ever know.

Armoured recce when done properly is to maintain contact with the enemy while not being in contact with the enemy.

Huh?  How do you maintain contact while not being in contact? 

I think you mean the "see without being seen" stuff.  Maintain contact, avoid en detection/observation kinda thing? 

You park your vehicles (usually 2-4) back a ways and then move to your recce position on foot.  Then when you need to you get back in your vehicle and move to a new place.

Wha?  I've done RAPZ stuff before and not dismounted.  I've also dismtd at times as well.  You do not HAVE to dismt to gain obs.  What is the degree of search?  Rate of adv?  Do they allow for a dismount every bound?

Just a few points after beating thru some cobwebs while reading your post.  There is a much broader scope to Armd Recce than your post presents (recce vs surveillance, adv, def, retrograde ops, a long list IIRC).  The way its done and kit its done with should take into consideration more than just IEDs in Afghanistan, IMO, but I've been away from the blackhat world for a few years. 

I was also amused to see a Tom Clancy book referred to as a recce PAM ???  When I did this stuff, I carried my SOPs and a Recce Tp Ldr's manual around for ref.  I guess times have changed.  ;D

:2c:

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

These vehicle would likely also be a good fit for some of the Armoured Reserve units, not over taxing on the logistical system and can drive to the training areas.

Question does any of the reg force units do the "classic sneak and peek recce" anymore? I knew it was the core mission for the reserve armoured units in their M38's and iltises.

What is "classic sneak and peek recce?" Reg F armoured recce units do not seek to be seen when conducting recce tasks. Coyotes and LAVs can be stealthy. After two series of force on force training with a mixed LUVW/Coyote Sqn in many instance the enemy saw the LUVWs first due to windshields and the requirement for the LUVWs to stick to tracks/roads. A Coyote can stop short of a crest or corner and dismount a patrol to peek around the same as a LUVW can.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My experiance is with the BCR's using mostly jeeps and occasional  Lynx's to sneak up gullies and ruts to get close and spy on the enemy without being seen.

 

[Franko]

My experiance is with the BCR's using mostly jeeps and occasional  Lynx's to sneak up gullies and ruts to get close and spy on the enemy without being seen.

If you do your job correctly in Recce, the enemy will never know he's being constantly observed.

 

[George Wallace]

No. The Recce Sqn belongs to the Brigade commander.

Well as you well know, I am a 'Cold Warrior' and of the Armour variety.......Recce Sqn does belong to an OC.......and together they belong to the Bde/BG Comd.   


Nerf herder and Recceguy......perhaps we can go back to Ferrets, or the more recent versions of the Fox, with more speed, quieter, etc. but only a three man crew. .........or.......

 

[Jarnhamar]

My experiance is with the BCR's using mostly jeeps and occasional  Lynx's to sneak up gullies and ruts to get close and spy on the enemy without being seen.

I was always under the assumption the farther away you can effectively recce an objective from the better. Amateurs get close.

 

[Tank Troll]

I was always under the assumption the farther away you can effectively recce an objective from the better. Amateurs get close.

This is some what true, how ever in the reserves usually the only optics we have are Binos and Mk I eyeballs so the need to get closer is there. I found with the Coyote serv gear it order to use it effectively you need to be a good ways away.  This was do to noise from the gear, the engine of the Vehicle to keep it powered, and tear down time. You also have the problem of light reflecting of the optics and the camming of the gear is tricky as well, more so the mast than the remote. By being that far away you can be limited to how much of the objective you can see.