TCAT-PCAT info and questions ( merged )

[clericalchronicals]

If you do not meet Universality of Sevice, you will be release under a medical release 3(A) or 3(B)

Just a question, when was the last time anyone saw a 3A release?  I've been clerking for almost 10 years now and still have yet to see one....and that was having worked in a release section...

 

[the 48th regulator]

Just a question, when was the last time anyone saw a 3A release?  I've been clerking for almost 10 years now and still have yet to see one....and that was having worked in a release section...

Good question.

Here is one for you, have you heard of a 5(F) Disabled?

This is a conundrum that I have been finding the legalities for this past month.

dileas

tess

 

[OldSolduer]

Yes. This is a term used for someone who would normally be 5F - what ever the terminology is, but because of underlying conditions (OSIs) are deemed disabled.

 

[clericalchronicals]

Good question.

Here is one for you, have you heard of a 5(F) Disabled?

This is a conundrum that I have been finding the legalities for this past month.

dileas

tess

5F?  Something not right there.  5F is Unsuitable for further service, certainly not something you would use for disbility, that would have to be a 3B.

Random.

 

[OldSolduer]

5F?  Something not right there.  5F is Unsuitable for further service, certainly not something you would use for disbility, that would have to be a 3B.

Random.

I'm at home riight now and don't have the expert. You can use 5F deemed disabled. Its for those "in between cases" where the proof for a 3b isn't quite there.....but there clearly is something wrong. It allows the soldier to gain access to some benefits that they aren't entitled to under 5f.
If a member is to be released 5f, and there is clear cut evidence that there is a relationship between the behavior and his underlying condition, the release item may be changed to 3b.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Aha,

That is the Crux,

If you are disabled, and are released it is under the Medical 3 category.  Further to that, I have proof that the CMP recommended anyone being released under a 5F is to be reviewed by DCSM, in that if there is reason that the member is suffering from an OSI, the benefit of the doubt goes to wards the member and he/she will be released under a 3B.

Been doing quite a bit of leg work, and hope to have all the cards in a row when I present this to my chain of command.

dileas

tess

 

[clericalchronicals]

Aha,

That is the Crux,

If you are disabled, and are released it is under the Medical 3 category.  Further to that, I have proof that the CMP recommended anyone being released under a 5F is to be reviewed by DCSM, in that if there is reason that the member is suffering from an OSI, the benefit of the doubt goes to wards the member and he/she will be released under a 3B.

Been doing quite a bit of leg work, and hope to have all the cards in a row when I present this to my chain of command.

dileas

tess

Let me help that leg work along.  Ref QR&O 15, table. 

Item 5F and I quote "Unsuitable for Further Service - Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces."

Item 3B and again I quote "Medical Grounds - On medical grounds being disabled and unfit to perform his duties in his present trade or employment, and not otherwise advantageously employable under existing service policy."

So, no, if it is a disability as it's definition is known to National Defence, then no, it is impossible for someone under those circumstances to be released under Item 5F.  Even is 3B was shaky ground for that class of release, then Item 3A would come into play: "On medical grounds being disabled and unfit to perform duties as a member of the Service."

And yes, I do have the legal definition of "Disability": Sourced from the Veterans Affairs Canada Charter

1.04 - Definition of Disability
"Disability" is defined in subsection 3( 1) of the Pension Act as follows: "disability means the loss or lessening of the power to will and to do any normal mental or physical act;"

As you can tell, "the loss or lessening of the power to will", not something within a persons control.

Cheers!

 

[the 48th regulator]

Now you know the battle that I have been building up to!!

5F Disabled is being used, and has been for many years, as I have official confirmation from DCSM.  This is a blatant contradictory of the QR&O 15, as you have pointed out.

dileas

tess

 

[clericalchronicals]

Release items seem to be one of the hardest to interpret policies...never really understood why, well, I guess people get wrapped up in the titles...

 

[the 48th regulator]

Release items seem to be one of the hardest to interpret policies...never really understood why, well, I guess people get wrapped up in the titles...

Apart from benefits, it is respect.

dileas

tess

 

[Zoomie01]

Have a question for the medical folks.  Here is the background.  Last year I had a heart attack (MI I think it was called).  long and the short of it was had a dye test done and it showed an artery blocked.  Stint was inserted.  2 weeks sick leave followed by 2 weeks light duties(1/2 days) than back to work.  I was put on a T Cat .  before Christmas, seen the Cardiologist who did a stress test and it came out fine, the Cardiologist does not want to see me any more.  Went in to the MIR to get taken off the TCAT and the paper work is about to be submitted.  All my symptons (I guess that is what you would call it are good) cholesterol is good, no more epsiodes other than that 1 bad day, PT test completed, Exempt etc).I am still on medication.  I am a Class A reservist with the occassional Class B contratct (less than 180 days).  My question is what can I expect from all of this.  Will my medical Cat be turned into a PCat because of the procedure I had done or is there a possibility I can get it lifted completely.  The Dr. at the MIR recommended it be lifted, but the final decision gets made with DMed Pol.  Would like to get in one more tour before I call it quits.

I know it is hard to give an answer without all the info and the file in front of you, but just looking for comments.  Thanks much 

 

[Armymedic]

Theoretically speaking, you would be put on PCat if your condition is chronic (which it is) and if you need specialist medical follow up more frequently than every 6 months. This would make you a G3. If you are unable to complete fitness testing i.e. Expres test, or any part of it, that would make you O3.

If there is no "negative" results of the procedure, other than the need for annual specialist follow up, I would hazard to guess, and it is only an opinion, that your category most likely would stay the same as it was before.

I say again, just my opinion, and best guess at that. The proper answer is above my pay grade and expertise.

 

[Zoomie]

There are pers out there with pace-makers that fly CF aircraft.  If you come out clear in all the tests, you should be fine for your med category.

 

[Strike]

There are pers out there with pace-makers that fly CF aircraft.  If you come out clear in all the tests, you should be fine for your med category.

Hey!  I know that guy!  He, of course, was restricted to flying a multiple-crew aircraft, just in case.  But as far as I know he's never had any more problems.

 

[ModlrMike]

Rider Pride is correct in his summation of your situation. Likely the only sticking point will be the follow up required.

 

[Zoomie01]

Ref the last comment, I don't remember the exact wording from the civilian cardioligist, but it basically stated he doesn't need to see me again.  I know about the requirement for the 6 month follow up as we had a guy in the unit who went on a PCat because his specialist said he needed to see him every 6 months.  Was relieved when mine said he did not want to see me.

appreciate all the comments so far

 

[CombatDoc]

Each patient is evaluated on a case-by-case basis, so nobody can give you a definitive answer.  However, none of the responses that you have received have mentioned the term "risk factors".  In other words, what risks did you have that caused you to have an MI, the big 4 being high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol and smoking.  Family history and your age also need to be taken into account.  You've noted that your cholesterol is OK, but what about the others?  For example, if you're a smoker you are still at risk of another MI and would be non-deployable IMO.

D Med Pol will determine your final med cat, but a common one in your type of situation assuming risk factors are controlled would be:
G3  Requires more frequent medical follow-up (not more often than every 6 months).
O3  Requires enhanced pre-deployment medical screening

Good luck with your category review.

 

[oscarmu25]

Hey everyone, Last monday, i went to the Health service det Vancouver to do  VOT medical update, I told the Physician i have minor ADD diagnosed from childhood, which does not affect my military duty. And i also stated in the questionnaire that i could do every physical actitivties that the questionnaire stated, and the doctor decided to give me a PCAT O3 G3 which slowed down my VOT. They told me, in order to successfully VOT, i have to wait for ottawa respond, which takes minimum 6months.  This PCAT crap has depressed me really much because it prohibited me from any deployment, exercise and summer tasking therefore i have quit my university plan next year due to lack of income. Can anyone please tell me, why the doctor gives me a PCAT, O3 G3 which restricted me from all my military activities when I only have ADD?
Emailscarmu25@hotmail.com
778-821-1314

 

[George Wallace]

NO ONE here can tell you that.  Why don't/didn't you ask your doctor. 

You do realize that this is (Read bottom of page):

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[Armymedic]

You should have asked the Physician why.

Each portion of that category is given for a reason.  Here is the criteria for his decision:

O3 - assigned to the member who has some specific employment limitation(s) which can be clearly and specifically detailed, and which prevent the member from fully meeting the Generic or the MOC task statements.

G3 - assigned to the member:

a.  who is considered likely fit for field exercises, sea environment, isolated postings and operational taskings for periods up to six (6) months;
b. who has a known requirement for scheduled medical service (see definitions in Chapter 2, 4.c.) by an MO but no more frequently than every six (6) months;
c.  whose limitations resulting from a known medical condition do not pose an unacceptable risk to the health and/or safety of the individual or fellow workers in the operational/work environment;
d. who may require and take prescription medications, the unexpected discontinuance (unavailability) of which will not create an unacceptable risk to the member's health and/or safety; and/or
e. who may require a medical evaluation before being sent on the tasking.

And that it is permanent, means the condition will not improve in 1-2 yrs.

This is for information only. More interesting reading can be found here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/CFP-PFC-154/default-eng.asp

I don't know, want to know, nor actually care about your case. But as someone who works in this field, I believe you should at least be armed with this information so you may go back and ask the right questions.