The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

[a_majoor]

You are actually contradicting yourself. If the established parties can receive millions of dollars in tax dollars then the smaller parties are indeed up against "endless money and spending" by current parties.

As for the gag laws; most politicians at all levels do not want to discuss certain topics. Endless amounts of time and effort are given over to what is essentially trivia in order to distract attention from larger issues. In my home town of London Ontario, the amount of time City Council spent on discussing a pesticide ban [despite scientific evidence that the products are safe], banning drive troughs and now banning plastic water bottles, vastly exceeds discussion on civic infrastructure, despite the fact London is routinely voted as having Ontario's worst roads and a huge sinkhole appearing downtown last October that devoured the main intersection and knocked out power and telecommunications to most of the core area (and that was only unusual due to the size of the sinkhole!).

If politicians and political parties don't care to discuss the issues, then citizens should be able to raise the issues. Otherwise, political discourse is distorted in favour of what political parties and their interest groups favor, not issues the citizen and taxpayer might wish to see discussed.

 

[RangerRay]

When the BC Liberals were elected here in 2001, the first thing they did was get rid of the gag laws.  The NDP brought them in to shut up their critics in the business lobby.

Now, the BC Liberal government is bringing back those laws because they want to shut up their critics in the labour lobby.

Either way, it reeks.

 

[George Wallace]

Either way, it reeks.

That's Politics. 

 

[DBA]

You are actually contradicting yourself. If the established parties can receive millions of dollars in tax dollars then the smaller parties are indeed up against "endless money and spending" by current parties.

No contradiction. Without caps and restrictions spending on elections has tended to spiral upwards. As I said the public funding was a trade off to get the caps and restrictions in place. An example of spending out of control would be Vancover municipal elections in 2005: Vancouver Election Spending Out of Control. More recent CBC commentary on the same: Fight over campaign financing in Vancouver likely to be rough. The end result tends to the elected having to do something for those who got them there even if it means poor governace: Civic spending 'out of control': Report B.C. municipalities are spending faster than people can pay according to report.

 

[a_majoor]

There can be restrictions in the amounts spent on election campaigns and the source and amounts of contributions without invoking taxpayer support for political parties. Re read the article. So long as parties do not have to "work" for their money, they will feel free to ignore the voters to whatever extent they can. They can also indulge in a great deal of nonsense, even the mighty Conservative money machine provides only 8.5 million dollars of the quarterly funding, so they got an additional 5.2 million from the taxpayer to fund attack ads and other "fun" stuff that would otherwise have to be on hold. (I'd rather they concentrated on governing)

just look at the figures again. If a political party like the BQ receives 95% of its income through tax dollars, where is the incentive to craft and articulate meaningful policies? The Liberals at 71% taxpayer funding can continue to flog ideas like the carbon tax and raising the GST despite the fact these ideas have no traction, and the NDP with 58% taxpayer funding are almost as disconnected from the public.

Ditch the taxpayer funding, and these parties will almost immediatly become irrelevant, joining the Progressive Canadians and Marxist Leninists, until such time that they choose to craft and articulate policies that are actually meaningful to voters. Making parties dependent on only individual donations by their supporters is the just solution, the parties that are actually crafting policies that are meaningful to their supporters get rewarded and those that don't pay the price.

 

[GAP]

A cannibal was walking through the jungle and came upon a restaurant
operated by a fellow cannibal. Feeling somewhat hungry, he sat down
and looked over the menu ...

Baked or Grilled:
Tourist - $5.00
Broiled Missionary - $10.00
Fried Explorer - $15.00
Conservative - $50,000.00
Liberal - $150,000.00
NDP - $75,000.00

After looking over the menu, the cannibal called the waiter over and
asked, 'Why such a price difference for the politicians?'

The cook replied, 'Have you ever tried to clean one? They're so full of
shit, it takes all morning!'

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
But, it does, I suppose, set Liberal hearts all aflutter - we'll see how fast they flutter if the PM sends us to the polls this fall.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post, is an article by Don Martin that predicts that we do, indeed, go to the polls this fall:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=723862

Don Martin: Harper's possible forced election, a 'galling move'

Don Martin, National Post

Published: Thursday, August 14, 2008

Canadians will go to the polls just before the U.S. election this fall. Go ahead, roll your eyes. Election predictions have been kicking around since early 2007, only to be proven premature with yet another whimpering surrender by Liberal MPs in the House of Commons.

But there's a hefty difference now. After a year of enduring false starts and bogus threats, the Prime Minister has moved beyond baiting the Liberals, signalling yesterday that he is willing to ignore his own fixed voting date and force an election himself, probably for Oct. 27.

"I think, quite frankly, I'm going to have to make a judgment in the next little while as to whether or not this Parliament can function productively," Stephen Harper said during a visit to Newfoundland.

So much for Liberal leader Stéphane Dion's "I have the power" boast that he alone will decide the timing of the next election. Mr. Harper has claimed the power for himself.

It's a galling move in some ways because fixing the election date was the Prime Minister's idea, a token nod to old Reform Party ideology.

Mandating a vote for Oct. 19, 2009, was sold as a key part of the Conservative pledge to be transparent and accountable, a pledge that has been tarnished on more than a few occasions since Mr. Harper came to power.

Declared government House Leader Rob Nicholson at the time: "Instead of the prime minister and a small group of advisors being the only ones who know when the country will move into the next general election, once this bill is passed, all Canadians will have that knowledge, which makes it fair."

But sacrificing fairness and principle to the greater interest of preserving Conservative power may be the only antidote to the toxicity infecting federal politics today.

This week's ethics committee probe into Conservative election financing shenanigans has provided a rare mid-summer preview of the upcoming and ongoing dysfunctionality of the House.

Witness intimidation, procedural stonewalling, cross-table name-calling and chair challenging have been the orders of every day, with MPs making only the odd stab at soliciting relevant information.

While the Conservative MPs are responsible for most of the obstruction, feelings on all sides have hardened to the point where one seething committee member wrote me mid-way through the hearings yesterday to declare, "my f---ing head's going to explode!"

Indeed. It's that bad.

Many Liberal doves have turned hawkish on a fall vote, in the belief that delaying until spring will give the Conservatives four more months to attack their carbon tax. But influential Conservatives are convinced Mr. Dion will still back away from an election, particularly if he loses one or both of the Liberal seats in next month's by-elections.

In that case, the only solution for this election-hungry government is to order committee work obstructed by its own MPs to bolster Mr. Harper's assessment that Parliament is paralyzed beyond repair, which would then justify breaking the government's own fixed election law.

There are several reasons why the Conservatives have an early election preference.

Mr. Harper is convinced the Green Shift carbon tax will be a seat killer for the Liberals, an impossible sell that would nudge him close to majority rule.

Waiting until 2009 comes with the risk that the oncoming economic slowdown will hit hard on his budget books, turning what is now a small fiscal deficit into a red-inked torrent of bad news next spring.

And there's always the possibility that Obamamania will seep across the border and instill Canadians with a mood for change - although Mr. Dion would seem a very faint echo of Democrat presidential nominee Barack Obama's oratorical charisma.

So put the Conservatives solidly behind the notion of a fall election vote, joining the Bloc Québécois and the New Democrats.

Even many Liberals now insist their green plan can be sold as bold, particularly given a wacky summer of weather that has pumped hot, dry air north and kept southern Ontario soaking in cool temperatures.

In what could be a final irony come late September, this Parliament appears headed for a rare display of unanimity by declaring itself too divided to function - and voting itself into the history books.

National Post
dmartin@nationalpost.com

I understand what Martin means when he says that ” Waiting until [the mandated election date in Oct] 2009 comes with the risk that the oncoming economic slowdown will hit hard on his budget books, turning what is now a small fiscal deficit into a red-inked torrent of bad news next spring.” The Liberals have inculcated Canadians with the canard that “Tory times are hard times.”

Harper’s one real advantage is that, much as Canadians may actually dislike him, they do not like Dion – he fails to ‘connect.’ Countering that is an apparently rock-solid Liberal “base” in Ontario – one that the commentariat (people like the Globe and Mail’s Jeffrey Simpson) keep firm by a steady stream of Alberta bashing. It appears that a substantial number of Ontarians are actually persuaded that a ”beggar thy neighbour” policy could be good for Canada. Of course that’s nonsense, absolute rubbish, but it is the heart and soul of the Liberal’s ’green shift’ plan and it appeals to those Canadians (a majority?) driven by greed and envy rather than good sense.

If we go to the polls this fall I GUESS that we will see another Harper minority – perhaps a bit bigger than the current one. I also GUESS that the Liberals will replace Dion and Harper might decide that he, too, should go – making way for Jim Prentice? But the two big results of another Conservative minority will be:

• The Liberals will be nearly bankrupt. The big banks will loan the Liberals enough money to run a first rate election campaign – secured by the taxpayers’ money – but the terms will be tougher than they were when Senator Smith could get as much money as he wanted for as long as he wanted with a wink and a nod. This time the Liberals will be in the pay, pay, pay mode, for years; and

• The minority parliament will suffer from all the same problems as the current one and Harper (or the new PM) will engineer an early (18 month? Apr/May 2010?) election when he can face a bankrupt Liberal Party still recovering from a bruising leadership campaign – one of Ignatieff or Rae is going to be really unhappy.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

And still nothing will change.


Same old same old with a huge waste of cash and peoples time. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And still nothing will change.


Same old same old with a huge waste of cash and peoples time. 

Better than letting the libs waste our time and money stalling the house & senate.  Dion is the fungal toenail on this footnote of the libs legacy. Personally, I have no trouble going to the polls, even if the CPC gets another minority. They've done more with this government, and kept more promises, that that other bunch did with three leaders and a majority, IMHO.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Then our political system needs an overhaul to remove fungus without going back to the polls. ALA YOUR FIRED!  >

 

[Edward Campbell]

Unfortunately the only way we have to "throw the rascals out" (or send pretty much the same, sorry crew back to Ottawa) is through elections.

Dion's 'green shift' is worth a national, popular 'review' and, even though I agree with Kim Campbell that election campaigns are the worst forum within which to debate policy, elections are also the only mechanism we have for a real 'popular review' of policy proposals.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Latest verbal salvo via today's Toronto Star:

"Two of the three opposition parties don't support the government and say we should be defeated. Mr. Dion says he doesn't support the government but won't say, you know, whether he will defeat us or not," Harper said. "I don't think that's a tenable situation.  I think that Mr. Dion will have to make up his mind, and I think quite frankly I'm going to have to make a judgment in the next little while as to whether or not this Parliament can function productively."

Although he would not discuss timing, (Harper's director of communication Kory) Teneycke said the government expects the Commons to sit as planned on Sept. 15, but wants to see a signal from Dion that the "games-playing will stop.  Being government means a lot more than just not being defeated in a confidence motion. It means actually being able to pursue a legislative agenda," said Teneycke.

Dion was unavailable to speak to media yesterday .... Rae would not discuss what Dion should do, but suggested an election is in the air.  "From the point of view of members in the House and candidates who have been nominated, and we have a lot of nominated candidates across the country, I think there's a sense that people say enough's enough, let's clear the air."

Layton welcomed Harper's tougher tone, and invited Dion to join the NDP in a vote to defeat the Conservatives.  "Let's put an end to the Harper policies and government. Take it to the Canadian people," he said in a telephone interview en route to Bathurst, N.B.

 

[Sheerin]

This is going to be a tough election for me, you know if we ever have one.  Traditionally i've always voted liberal, but this time around I don't think i can.  I just don't like where Dion is steering the party, not to mention some of his policies. 

I refuse to vote for the federal NDP.  And that leaves the Tory's.  And i'm not sure if i'm prepared to make the jump to the right. 

 

 

[stegner]

Better than letting the libs waste our time and money stalling the house & senate.  Dion is the fungal toenail on this footnote of the libs legacy. Personally, I have no trouble going to the polls, even if the CPC gets another minority. They've done more with this government, and kept more promises, that that other bunch did with three leaders and a majority, IMHO.

I have always heard this rhetoric from the Conservatives that they have done more than the Liberals did in 13 years.  However, there is almost no evidence of this and I would welcome you to qualify what exactly the Conservatives have accomplished.  To be fair in their first year they passed the Federal Accountability Act and fixed election dates.  However, I don't think they have really done much of anything since  They are currently working of their fourth environmental strategy in three years.  Mr. Martin was known as Mister Dithers and I think Harper is Mister Dithers II.  Harper is most outspoken and decisive about foreign policy-which is not a surprise given that he often verbatim repeats the U.S position-without taking into consideration that Canada's interests are not always the interests of the U.S.  We have not seen his strong warnings to the U.S about arctic sovereignty that we saw after the election.  Sad that he has copped out in this respect.    In domestic affairs he almost has no voice or vision. 

Harper's problem is that he is governing as if he has a majority.    He rants and rails about how the House is delaying things.  Well sir, a majority of the country did not vote for him or his party and this can be seen in the fact that he has a minority.    I think another sign of the lack of  accomplishments are his attack ads.  Someone who has truly accomplished something would focus on that, not attacking Dion and the Liberals.  You don't go negative if you have lots of positive things to say about your government.  The silence in this respect is deafening.  Personally, I think his desire to force an election is indicative of his inability to come up with any new ideas.  Paul Martin experienced even more Parliamentary disturbances than Harper and yet he did not ponder elections.  He had the audacity to lead in his own dithering way. 

Instead of defining a grand vision for Canada, Harper has assured the media that the central plank of the election will be the carbon tax.  I think it is pretty ridiculous that a government is not defining the issues, but is leaving that task to the opposition.    As the Conservative ads assure us Dion is not a leader, but I think the same applies to Harper as PM he has failed a basic task: to lead. 

 

[George Wallace]

stegner.  I know you are a staunch, die in the wool, Liberal; but did Jean Chretien keep his promise to get rid of the GST?  NO! he did not.  Stephen Harper said he would drop the GST 1% in a year and another 1% the following.  He kept those promises.  I know that it is only one promise right now, but it jumps right out in my memory at this very moment as a response to you.  We can also look at the work the Conservatives have done to "rebuild" the CF, quite the opposite of what the Liberals have been doing since Trudeau, but I guess that also escapes your scrutiny.

 

[2 Cdo]

stegner.  I know you are a staunch, die in the wool, Liberal; but did Jean Chretien keep his promise to get rid of the GST?  NO! he did not.  Stephen Harper said he would drop the GST 1% in a year and another 1% the following.  He kept those promises.  I know that it is only one promise right now, but it jumps right out in my memory at this very moment as a response to you.  We can also look at the work the Conservatives have done to "rebuild" the CF, quite the opposite of what the Liberals have been doing since Trudeau, but I guess that also escapes your scrutiny.

Why bother George. Stephen Harper could end world hunger and find a cure for cancer and stegner would still vote Liberal. His comment about Harper always following the US position is pure rubbish. In fact, he is the type of person I have in mind when I state that some Liberal supporters would vote for a rock if it was wrapped in Liberal red. He ignores broken Liberal promises and downplays Conservative promises that were kept.

On reflection Chretein did keep one promise, he cancelled the Sea King helicopter replacement which cost us millions. Then he bowed to pressure and opened up the bidding again, but kept changing the requirements when the EH-101 kept proving to be the best helicopter. :

 

[Kirkhill]

Instead of defining a grand vision for Canada, Harper has assured the media that the central plank of the election will be the carbon tax.  I think it is pretty ridiculous that a government is not defining the issues, but is leaving that task to the opposition.    As the Conservative ads assure us Dion is not a leader, but I think the same applies to Harper as PM he has failed a basic task: to lead. 

I didn't vote for a Leader.  I've had enough of Gunslingers with Grand Visions.  I wanted a Manager that will do the things I want done.  Not someone to tell me that I am a baaaaad boy and that if I pay enough penance then "Mein Fuehrer/Mein Gott" will square the bill at some future date.

 

[stegner]

stegner.  I know you are a staunch, die in the wool, Liberal; but did Jean Chretien keep his promise to get rid of the GST?  NO! he did not.  Stephen Harper said he would drop the GST 1% in a year and another 1% the following.  He kept those promises.  I know that it is only one promise right now, but it jumps right out in my memory at this very moment as a response to you.  We can also look at the work the Conservatives have done to "rebuild" the CF, quite the opposite of what the Liberals have been doing since Trudeau, but I guess that also escapes your scrutiny.

I didn't vote for a Leader.  I've had enough of Gunslingers with Grand Visions.  I wanted a Manager that will do the things I want done.  Not someone to tell me that I am a baaaaad boy and that if I pay enough penance then "Mein Fuehrer/Mein Gott" will square the bill at some future date.

Yes he kept that promise.  But that is just my point he did that in the first year and a half of his mandate-there has not been much done since in the way of major policies.  That's the point I was trying to make. Indeed Harper has helped to rebuild the Canadian Forces.  However, I think a lot of credit should go to Hillier for this-who was hired as CDS by the Liberals.  It is worth noting that under Martin there was a beginning of rebuilding the CF also.  In fact, many of the purchases  announced by the Harper government were in the works already under Martin.  The C-17, C-130 and supply ship purchases come to mind.  I don't think there would be a lot of difference in the defence policies of Harper and Martin were he still to be in office.  Martin, after all, was the PM that sent the CF into Kandahar.  However, Harper did have the decency not to pull a Chretien and cancel the contracts or the supply process.  So besides defence what exactly has Harper accomplished since 2007?

Why bother George. Stephen Harper could end world hunger and find a cure for cancer and stegner would still vote Liberal.

I assure you if Harper did either of those things he would get my vote.

 

[2 Cdo]

   In fact, many of the purchases  announced by the Harper government were in the works already under Martin.   The C-17, C-130 and supply ship purchases come to mind. 

The difference is, the Liberal party talked about things but didn't often do anything.

Martin, after all, was the PM that sent the CF into Kandahar.

After Jean Chretein initially put us their. Which is something you should remind your fellow Liberal supporters when the state Stephen Harper put us in Afghanistan.

I assure you if Harper did either of those things he would get my vote.

And based on your rather slanted political views, I highly doubt it. But we'll never know because it wouldn't happen.

 

[stegner]

After Jean Chretein initially put us their. Which is something you should remind your fellow Liberal supporters when the state Stephen Harper put us in Afghanistan.

Indeed!