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The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

E.R. Campbell said:
Good on you, too, ModlrMike. More leaders should do the same.

- I have a different view.  The planet is run by people who show up.  I would rather have a million people casting INFORMED votes than 20,000,000 aimlessly casting their votes and undoing the good being done by those who thought things through.  For those who would later claim the results are flawed, I would reply that politicians are elected to represent ALL of the people in their ridings, not just the ones who vote.

 
From CTV Newsnet.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080217/qp_elxn_080217/20080217?hub=TopStories

Chretien advises Dion to trigger election: analyst

CTV.ca News Staff

Updated: Sun. Feb. 17 2008 4:19 PM ET

Former prime minister Jean Chretien has advised Liberal Leader Stephane Dion to trigger an election now, says a former senior Liberal.

"We hear now that ... Chretien and Jean Pelletier, his former chief of staff, are telling him it's a matter of credibility, that he can't support the government any more and that the timing would be right," Jean Lapierre told CTV's Question Period on Sunday.

Lapierre, now a political commentator for Quebec's TVA network, said Dion would be "comfortable with that advice."

The Liberal caucus is said to be deeply divided on an election call, with Dion among the most hawkish.

In a Feb. 11 appearance on Question Period, Dion strongly hinted the Liberals might defeat the Tories over the budget, which will be tabled on Feb. 26.

Chretien had called elections as prime minister in 1997 and 2000 despite the objections of what he called "nervous Nellies" in his caucus, "but in the end, he was proven right," said Lapierre.

"I think (Chretien) will have a greater influence on Mr. Dion than any member of caucus," he said. 

"I'm sure if Mr. Chretien were the leader of the Liberal party, he would pull the plug and he'd go for a fight," Lapierre said, citing controversies like the Afghan detainees issue and the Mulroney-Schreiber affair.

This affair is a major test of leadership for Dion, he said. "The toothpaste is out of the tube; he can't put it back in."

CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife said there are several signs the Liberal party is preparing for an early election:

    * The Liberals finally have a campaign plane;
    * Dion took his staff out for beers on Friday night to get them "revved up"; and
    * Is spending Sunday at Stornoway, the official residence of the leader of the opposition, to prepare for a campaign-style tour of Quebec. The House of Commons won't be sitting this week.

Conservatives attack

The Conservative minority government appears to be spoiling for a fight itself.

Along with the budget, which is always a matter of confidence, the Tories have made a late March vote on extending the Afghanistan mission a matter of confidence. They also made Senate ratification of their omnibus crime bill to be a matter of confidence.

Industry Minister Jim Prentice used his Question Period appearance to give a preview of an attack on Liberal spending promises:

    * The Tories claim the Liberals have made 86 major spending commitments since January 2006 (the last federal vote took place on Jan. 23, 2006; the Conservatives took power on Feb. 6);
    * If implemented, they would add $62.5 billion to Canada's debt over the next four years; and
    * There are at least 33 more uncommitted spending promises.

Prentice put a $98 billion price tag on those promises.

"It's time for the Liberals to come clean with Canadians on how they would pay for these spending promises," he said.

A television ad shows Dion making a number of spending commitments. At least one clip about where Dion talked about "megatonnes of money" may actually from a speech where he was saying how much money could be made by shifting to a lower-carbon economy.

"We can hardly be faulted if it doesn't look like leadership; it looks like confusion and it looks like spending promises that will drive our country into debt," Prentice said.

Asked if the government was trying to trigger an election, Prentice said: "Whether there's an election or not will depends on the Liberals in particular.

"In that context, we feel it's appropriate to force them to account to Canadians," he said.

Liberals respond

Liberal Finance Critic John McCallum described the Conservatives' claims a "$62 billion Conservative lie.

"History shows that it's Conservatives who run big, fat, juicy deficits, and it's Liberals like Jean Chretien, Dalton McGuinty and soon, Stephane Dion, are left to clean up the mess," McCallum said.

"We have said over and over again we will not go into deficit," he said. "Every promise we make in the course of the election campaign will be fully costed, fully documented and fully public."

The two federal Conservative budgets to date have been balanced and have also resulted in healthy surpluses. That led to major tax cuts, the most prominent of which has been reducing the Goods and Services Tax to five per cent.

McCallum said he suspected the Tories want an election because they suspect the economy will start to slip.

"They have little (left) to help the manufacturing sector," he said.

In the upcoming budget, McCallum echoed Dion in saying the Liberals would review the budget and support it if it's good for Canada.

Any decision to trigger an election would be up to Dion, he said.

© 2007 CTVglobemedia All Rights Reserved.
 
Stephane Dion has an image problem WRT his leadership. Does he really need to take advice from Jean Chretien?

Edit for spelling.
 
Lets all just hope Harper gets in, or you can kiss your miitary and guns (ya the ones you own) good-bye.

Keep the Libs on the UI line.

Cheers,

Wes
 
I doubt that there are many journalists with political connections as good as those of the Globe and Mail’s Lawrence Martin. Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is a piece that I find persuasive:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080218.wcomartin18/BNStory/Front/?query=
Why the Grits won't go to the polls

LAWRENCE MARTIN

From Monday's Globe and Mail
February 18, 2008 at 3:57 AM EST

It was the Liberal caucus meeting last Wednesday that marked the turning point. Member after member got up at that session and told Stéphane Dion, "Hell no, don't go." Until that point, the view of John McCallum - plunge into an election campaign and damn the torpedoes - seemed to be holding up.

But this meeting, with only a few dissenters, offered a consensus. Now, if the Liberal leader is to force an early election he will be up against a majority in his party. Not a wise choice.

Bob Rae explained to Mr. Dion how his thinking had evolved. He was pointed in calling on the leader to hold off. Andrew Telegdi, who supported Gerard Kennedy in the leadership race, stated how he had changed his mind from his formerly hawkish position. Members from southern Ontario, a region critical to the party's fortunes, were emphatic against an early call.

Many MPs have gone to Mr. Dion privately. Albina Guarnieri supported Michael Ignatieff in the leadership campaign. Some believe an early election, with the prospect of a Dion defeat, is in Iggy's best interests. But Ms. Guarnieri is advising Mr. Dion to wait. Mr. Ignatieff, she said, has not counselled her one way or the other.

Judy Sgro has been categorical in her pitch to the Liberal leader to hold off and Martha Hall Findlay has joined others in telling Mr. McCallum that he should dip his hawkish head in a bucket of cold water - or words to that effect.

Interviews with a dozen caucus members reveal that the shift in thinking has come about only in the past couple of weeks. Until this month, the general view was that there was little chance of winning under Stéphane Dion. So why not have the election early and pick up the pieces - perhaps with a new leader. Now there's a feeling that they can in fact win with him, but only if he's given more time to heal the deep wounds from year one.

There has been and still is a stubbornly inevitable quality about this reticent-looking creature. He somehow keeps moving forward.

On the election call he hasn't shown his hand. Few can read him because he is a lone wolf. Many in the party hierarchy supported other leadership contestants and he cannot fully trust them.

His wife, Janine Krieber, is the one he trusts. She operates quietly, meeting some MPs privately as she did some time ago with Ms. Guarnieri, taking her to a concert and dinner to explain her husband's position on a piece of legislation.

Mr. Dion, caucus members report, is tired of being seen as pushed around by Prime Minister Stephen Harper. It will be hard for him, therefore, to buckle under and accept the coming budget. But they suspect that, while sounding aggressive in the runup to it, he will do so.

In the case of the war in Afghanistan he received some rare positive press notices for moving toward a possible compromise with the government. He was somehow seen to be out front, helping set the agenda, as opposed to being run over by it.

His office is still battling perceptions of internal dissent. Mr. Ignatieff, a Dion adviser said, has been totally supportive but some in the Quebec media simply won't buy it. "They'll detect a different inflection in Michael's voice or some goddamn thing - and make a big deal out of it."

Many of the young bucks from the Gerard Kennedy campaign, like MP Mark Holland, are still, for whatever reason, pushing for an early election to be triggered by the budget vote. But this budget, many in the caucus believe, is less critical than the budget measures the Liberals supported last fall. There will be no lasting damage, they say, in supporting it in the short term.

These members see a raft of other advantages in waiting. It will allow for their by-election wins on March 17, it will give Mr. Dion more time to grow, it will provide more time to raise money, time to take advantage of any economic downturn and time for the party to perhaps pick up on the liberal tide that is starting to hit the United States. To chart the history of the continent is to see how political moods in the two countries sometimes mesh.

Moods are not to be underestimated. Most Liberals don't see the mood for change being ripe enough just yet. They are wise to wait.

I’m away from Ottawa, and away from my (limited) sources of gossip and rumour, so I am poorly placed to judge the accuracy (or wishful thinking) of the ” stubbornly inevitable quality about this reticent-looking creature [Dion] [who] somehow keeps moving forward.” Perhaps Canadians are warming to him, seeing something there that is not visible by reading news reports from 2,200 km away. I am more inclined to think that the newfound caution is based on a combination of polls indicating that Liberals cannot win with Dion but that the Conservatives might make further inroads against him and the political ambitions of e.g. Hall Findlay, Ignatieff, Kennedy and Rae.

 
I think the problem Dion has is his reflection of strength when he looks in a mirror.....I think Chretian told him exactly what he wanted to hear. Thus, when he looks in the mirror, he sees something no one else sees......I think he will go for it.
 
Lets all just hope Harper gets in, or you can kiss your miitary and guns (ya the ones you own) good-bye

Nice try.  Let me guess you are part of Preston Manning's fan club? 

Stephane Dion has an image problem WRT his leadership. Does he really need to take advise from Jean Chretien?

I would take advice from Chretien he is 10x the strategist that Harper is.  How many Canadian Prime Minister's have had 3 consecutive majority governments?  One: Chretien.  Harper often lauded for his political genius has had no majority governments and is 1-1-0-0 against Paul Martin.  I don't see any political genius there, only mediocrity.  Many folks claim Dion is pathetic and weak on here-but I think Harper is pretty pathetic and weak too if he is still running neck and neck and often behind the Liberals in the polls.     


But this meeting, with only a few dissenters, offered a consensus. Now, if the Liberal leader is to force an early election he will be up against a majority in his party. Not a wise choice.

Ditto with Chretien in 1997 and 2000 and he said I'm the leader and your not and went to election.  Worked out all right for him and was a wise choice.  Gee Lawrence I would think you should know all this having written biographies on Chretien.

 
stegner said:
Nice try.  Let me guess you are part of Preston Manning's fan club? 

I would take advice from Chretien he is 10x the strategist that Harper is.  How many Canadian Prime Minister's have had 3 consecutive majority governments?  One: Chretien.  Harper often lauded for his political genius has had no majority governments and is 1-1-0-0 against Paul Martin.   I don't see any political genius there, only mediocrity.   Many folks claim Dion is pathetic and weak on here-but I think Harper is pretty pathetic and weak too if he is still running neck and neck and often behind the Liberals in the polls.     


Ditto with Chretien in 1997 and 2000 and he said I'm the leader and your not and went to election.  Worked out all right for him and was a wise choice.  Gee Lawrence I would think you should know all this having written biographies on Chretien.

You call Harper weak with what he has accomplished with a MINORITY government?  ::) As for Chretein, the less I say the better.

I'd say Harper isn't further ahead due to the number of people in Canada who vote Liberal no matter what illegal or dishonest actions the party commits. Unlike Conservative voters who truly showed their disgust towards the Mulrooney Conservatives, reducing them to 2 seats under Kim Campbell. You will never see Liberal supporters truly punish the party to that extent. Most Liberal supporters would vote for a dead goat if it was wrapped in Liberal red, you seem to be one of those.
 
You call Harper weak with what he has accomplished with a MINORITY government?  Roll Eyes

Just what has Harper accomplished?


I'd say Harper isn't further ahead due to the number of people in Canada who vote Liberal no matter what illegal or dishonest actions the party commit

What illegal actions did the Liberal government perform and what provision of the Criminal Code of Canada where they charged with?


Most Liberal supporters would vote for a dead goat if it was wrapped in Liberal red, you seem to be one of those.

Ditto with you and the Conservatives.

Say what you want but the Liberals did a lot of good in turning the Canadian economy around.  And given that they were in power for 13 years if Shawanigate is the worst scandal of Chretien I would say it was not too bad.  Mr. Chretien told Harper to bring it on if he wants to open up the investigation again-he has nothing to hide.  By the way Shawanigate was Chretien basically do his job as the MP for his riding and using his executive powers to make sure that his riding got a grant.  He was elected.  The President of the Business Development Bank was not.  Civil servants should defer to wishes of those elected and especially a Prime Minister.   

The other scandals of the HRDC, Sponsorship, gun registry had primarily civil servants performing the scandalous activities.  In these cases civil servants were charged not members of the Liberal government.  Google it if you don't believe me.





 
stegner said:
Nice try.  Let me guess you are part of Preston Manning's fan club? 

Ya, typical comment form yet another person with an empty profile, who is rude. Have some phucken manners PAL! You can politely get your message accross without being such a wanker.

If you want to stir the pot with an attitude and be the troll, just remember, its your integrity on here, not ours.

Secondly, I like a voice from the west, a good pro Defence Force and supporter of firearms owners for starters.

I did enjoy Manning yes, he was a breath of fresh air for the west, and a good change from the Liberal 'toilet breath' which had dominated federal politics for far too long.

EDIT: Had a squizz and all your posts and most are somwhat politically motivated and pro left. Thats fair enough, as we each have our own views, but I am beginning to sense a hidden agenda which seems to be coming out of the closet lately.
 
stegner said:
I would take advice from Chretien...

But your not the one with leadership image problems. If Dion accepts Chretien's direction, then he creates a tailor made opportunity for his detractors... both within and without the Liberal party.

Here's some advice for Mr Dion:

Beware the ides of March.
 
I did enjoy Manning yes, he was a breath of fresh air for the west.

There is nothing wrong with liking Preston Manning.  He did make a lot of sense in saying that the West needs to be let in-something I don't think has happened yet. 

Secondly, I like a voice from the west.

Couldn't agree with you more being from Alberta.  Though I am not noticing as many benefits heading Alberta's way (or more specifically Edmonton) since the defeat of Liberal MP and Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan :-[  A strong voice in the west needn't always be Conservative and Anne McLellan was an excellent voice that benefited all Albertans.


But your not the one with leadership image problems. If Dion accepts Chretien's direction, then he creates a tailor made opportunity for his detractors... both within and without the Liberal party.

Fair enough.

 
Was listening to the news.... Mr Dion has come out to say that the Liberals might support the next Flaherty budget after all.....

I guess someone pointed out to him that coming out & saying he would not support it, before knowing what was in it demonstrated a certain amount of "close mindedness".

They may very well vote it down - but, it certainly didn't make sense to diss it before knowing what was in it.
 
geo said:
Was listening to the news.... Mr Dion has come out to say that the Liberals might support the next Flaherty budget after all.....

......or go down in flames. The Liberals might have better polling numbers, but in terms of fund raising, organization, caucus unity and having a coherent platform or philosophy they are far behind the Conservatives. Of course supporting the budget and putting off the day of reckoning doesn't work out much better for the Liberals. Mr Dion is seen to cave yet again, the Conservatives deliver a budget and can carry on with "Getting things done for Canadians tm" to the delight of their base and this makes them more attractive to moderates and undecided voters while the NDP and Greens gnaw away at the electoral "Left".

Even hoping for an economic slowdown will not help as much as some bloggers in the Liberalverse seem to think. Most people will understand it is a result of conditions in the United States, and the classical economics being promoted by the Conservative government will reduce the most dramatic effects of a US recession on Canada. For those people who still believe in Keynesian economics, they will be attracted to the NDP and Greens, so Mr Dion loses yet again.

The downside of this for Conservatives a weak opposition can lead to Hubris and a sense of complacency. For the people of Canada, we could see the next election (whenever it occurs) leading to a minority government with the NDP as the opposition, or in the kingmaker role in some Left wing coalition.
 
There are a number of possible outcomes for Mr Dion, none of them particulary good:

1. Defeat the budget and appear to be led by the "ghost of Chretien past" into an election you're not prepared for;

2. Support the budget and hemorrhage support to the NDP, Greens, and Bloc;

3. Abstain and look weak;

4. Support the budget/abstain and look forward to possibly fighting the election on Afghanistan;

5. Support or abstain on the Afghanistan motion and allow the Torries to remain at the helm.

I'd like to think of positive outcomes, but I'm not sure that I can. Any of these results will give the Conservatives significant campaign fodder. I think we're looking at our own "night of the long knives" in the Liberal party.
 
Or, one other outcome

6. Defeat the government on either the budget or Afganistan, go into an election and form the next government.  Look at the latest polls, this is a very real possibility.

Liberals pull ahead of Tories in new poll
Updated Mon. Jan. 28 2008 7:16 PM ET

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- A new poll suggests the Liberals have pulled ahead of the Conservatives amid bad news on the economy and controversy over the Afghan military mission.

The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey indicates the Liberals were the party of choice for 32 per cent of respondents, compared to 29 for the Tories.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080128/dead_heat_080128/20080128?hub=Politics
 
sgf said:
Or, one other outcome

6. Defeat the government on either the budget or Afganistan, go into an election and form the next government.  Look at the latest polls, this is a very real possibility.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080128/dead_heat_080128/20080128?hub=Politics

Considering a large portion of the voting public don't want an election now, this may be possible, though not probable. I wager that voter backlash might come into play.

Edit for grammar.
 
Could this be the trigger?

http://canadaconservative.blogspot.com/2008/02/election-trigger-dion-budget-gaffe.html

The election trigger: Dion's budget gaffe

Loads of people are making all kinds of speculation on whether or not we're going to have an election over the Budget.

But I think we finally have an answer, thanks to Mr. Dion's statements on Monday.  I think, that based on his gaffe in Quebec yesterday, that Mr. Dion has now painted himself into a corner that he can't get out of, and he now has no choice BUT to trigger an election.

Let's review his quote just one more time... "If it's a budget that appears to us as being acceptable or at least not too harmful for the Canadian economy, we could let it pass and avoid a $350 million in (taxpayer) expenses for an election."

Did you catch that?  He said, and I quote, "acceptable or at least not TOO harmful".  Amm, I must say, that's some visionary Liberal thinking there for the electorate... "NOT TOO HARMFUL".

I don't think there's any possible way to climb down from that one.  He abstains from the Budget, and Jack Layton can stump for months on that fodder... "Mr. Dion allowed this harmful budget to pass just to save his own skin... he has no vision whatsoever for this nation if he can tolerate such a wrong-headed budget."

There's no way he can live it down if he lets it pass now... he's totally finished on this one if he does.  He will get roasted from coast to coast, and will lose any credibility he had left.

Folks, I think it's settled... we're off to the polls.

posted by Christian Conservative @ 10:48 PM
 
sgf said:
Or, one other outcome

6. Defeat the government on either the budget or Afganistan, go into an election and form the next government.  Look at the latest polls, this is a very real possibility.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080128/dead_heat_080128/20080128?hub=Politics


And another poll shows Conservatives still in the lead
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=61902181-1fc7-427a-b736-fdece3497271
Theres only 1 poll that matters.  And thats on election day

(anyone else notice Harris-Decima surveys always favours the Liberals and Angus-Reid always favours Conservatives?)
 
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