The Agent Orange and Its Repercussions Thread
- Thread starter Sandy Skipton
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O
oldvet
Guest
In case anyone is interested: did you know that in the mid 1970's thousands of gallons of Agent Orange, various other chemical warfare agents and their manufacturing wastes were taken from Dow chemical and other companies and disposed of through a facility in Mississauga. After a storage time in Mississauga they were transported by tanker truck to Sarnia where they were injected into the ground. During the storage time, a significant quantity of the stuff evaporated from the storage tanks; God knows what has happened to the stuff that was injected into the ground. Wonder what the effect of long term low level exposure did to the residents of Mississauga??? Wonder what the stuff coming out of the ground is doing to the residents of Sarnia????
S
SNEN833
Guest
rocky1fac said:
S
SNEN833
Guest
I must respectfully disagree with your assessment that the Agent Orange crisis is being overblown. There are simply too many individuals with the same chronic illness. My father-in-law has been the epitome of health his entire life until last year when he was diagnosed with Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia. This is the same illness that killed BG Sellers, who hapend to be the commanding officer of the Black Watch Regiment in the 60's. My Father In Law was also in the BW Regiment during that time. The American Government has recognized that Agent Orange and its more lethal Agent Purple cause people to develop CLL.
The Canadian goverment needs to do the same and get the benefits to the veterans who need them now!
The Canadian goverment needs to do the same and get the benefits to the veterans who need them now!
O
oldvet
Guest
For those who contacted me regarding the disposal of chemical warfare agents in the Sarnia area: I suggest that you check out "Tricil Waste Management" a joint venture between CIL and Trimac trucking, their disposal site is/was near Moore Township (Corunna) in Lambton County. Also, it might be worthwhile investigating the practice of blending these, and other toxic wastes, with used crankcase oils and spraying the mix onto rural roads for "dust suppresion"; and also the dumping of toxic wastes in the old Ontario Hydro fly ash dump north of Toronto.
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I hope my comments are taken as discussion and they are not given in any other way...
The company oldvet points out is/was a waste management company.. in the early 70s the dioxins were simply that 'waste' at least the company lists what they were handling. The dumps referred to were 'Toxic dumps' (as far as I can find out).. therefore the workers and people would have had a prewarning that their health could be in compromised. That is not so say it was right... BUT, please understand, the spraying of toxic and damaging chemicals at Gagetown was not information that was given willingly by our government. Had the government and military been up front, then the servicemen and the people living in the area would have known their health could be compromised and my husband, along with many others, could have had his problems recognized at a point when productive treatment may have extended his life. We as silly humans think we are indestructable and we look to our doctors to know what to look for. When our government made a mistake by spraying why did they keep the info a secret? Why did they not speak up and let us, or at least our medical system, know so that we could protect ourselves to the best of our ability? It is the secretiveness and the denials that have hurt so many. We have expected, and rightly so, that our government should be honest. Our government officials are elected by us to represent us and protect us. This is what they have fallen down on. They had a mess to clean up and the mess could have been better handled by treating us with respect a long time ago. Everone makes mistakes but for some reason our government thinks hiding mistakes is the right way, well sorry but admitting a mistake AS SOON AS IT IS DISCOVERED will go a long way to preventing or at least starting on a path to correct the resulting problems.
The company oldvet points out is/was a waste management company.. in the early 70s the dioxins were simply that 'waste' at least the company lists what they were handling. The dumps referred to were 'Toxic dumps' (as far as I can find out).. therefore the workers and people would have had a prewarning that their health could be in compromised. That is not so say it was right... BUT, please understand, the spraying of toxic and damaging chemicals at Gagetown was not information that was given willingly by our government. Had the government and military been up front, then the servicemen and the people living in the area would have known their health could be compromised and my husband, along with many others, could have had his problems recognized at a point when productive treatment may have extended his life. We as silly humans think we are indestructable and we look to our doctors to know what to look for. When our government made a mistake by spraying why did they keep the info a secret? Why did they not speak up and let us, or at least our medical system, know so that we could protect ourselves to the best of our ability? It is the secretiveness and the denials that have hurt so many. We have expected, and rightly so, that our government should be honest. Our government officials are elected by us to represent us and protect us. This is what they have fallen down on. They had a mess to clean up and the mess could have been better handled by treating us with respect a long time ago. Everone makes mistakes but for some reason our government thinks hiding mistakes is the right way, well sorry but admitting a mistake AS SOON AS IT IS DISCOVERED will go a long way to preventing or at least starting on a path to correct the resulting problems.
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MIKsam said:
Hmmm. Notice a pattern here? Why would they admit to this and risk their votes and popularity. This system of denial is the norm in Ottawa, no matter the scandal. It's seems to be a politician's inherent right to lie to their constituents, without penalty. This one is just another in a very long list. Ex lawyers and used car salesmen. We get what we pay for.
J
jwalker
Guest
Ottawa's shoddy efforts on Agent Orange dishonour vets
By Bill Dunphy
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jun 18, 2005)
Canada's Department of Veterans Affairs has belatedly taken steps to deal with the growing pile of disability claims from Canadian veterans who fear that military exposure to Agent Orange has left them ill, disabled and even dying.
Sandra Williamson, the department's acting director of programs and policy, revealed yesterday that the department is forming a special review committee to re-examine all failed Agent Orange disability claims and to process what may prove to be a flood of new ones.
"We're encouraging any (veteran) who believes he or she may be suffering illnesses related to Agent Orange exposure to contact us," Williamson said.
Disability claims will be judged on the very latest available scientific evidence, she said.
"We're taking a fair, flexible and reasonable approach," Williamson told me.
"We're encouraging veterans to come forward. They'll be dealt with in as timely a manner as we can."
Two Hamilton veterans have already come forward to say they suspect their Type 2 diabetes (so-called late onset diabetes) may be a direct result of the time they spent at CFB Gagetown in areas used as a testing ground for the toxic defoliant. Both men worry even more serious diseases may follow.
The news broke one month ago after the government finally acknowledged -- in two cases -- that veterans had fallen ill after being exposed to Agent Orange during the little known testing of the powerful herbicide at the Gagetown, New Brunswick, army base in 1966.
One of those two soldiers died before he could receive his disability benefits. A third soldier granted disability benefits was exposed during peace-keeping duty in Vietnam.
The wide use of Agent Orange by the American forces in the Vietnam war has been linked to a series of sometimes fatal cancers and other illnesses, but Canadian authorities had previously denied there were any health risks associated with the Agent Orange testing by American crews at Gagetown.
They have now admitted what some veterans have been saying for years and the only questions that remain are how many others have fallen ill and how many will ever receive disability pensions.
Since they began tracking Agent Orange claims in 2000, Veteran Affairs has accepted two and rejected 23. One of the latter was overturned on appeal last week.
As many as 350 veterans have inquired about making a claim in the past month.
The two Hamilton veterans who say their diabetes may be a direct result of Agent Orange exposure yesterday expressed skepticism about the new special review committee.
"I'm a little skeptical because they've said they're going to do a bunch of stuff, but they never do it," Leslie Kitson said.
Kitson has some experience in the matter.
It took him seven appeals before he was finally granted a 25 per cent disability after a sporting accident in the service left him with permanent double vision in one eye.
His application for benefits for his diabetes was turned down just last year.
"I'll apply again and see what they say," he said.
John Walker's application is still with his doctor, but he too was no more than cautious about yesterday's announcement.
"I'm glad to hear they say they're going to take an interest. Whether they do or not remains to be seen."
Walker is still furious that officials are refusing to notify every soldier who served at Gagetown and may have been exposed.
So furious that last week he tried to get the Hamilton RCMP office to open an investigation of government officials on charges of criminal negligence causing death.
Police considered the matter for several days, then refused to open an investigation, he told me.
Walker's anger is well placed, as is both men's skepticism.
For while the Veteran Affairs announcement sounds like good news, once you lift the curtains, it begins to look more and more like damage control.
Despite the best efforts of a public relations official I could hear whispering answers for her during the hour-long interview, Williamson was forced to admit Veteran Affairs is making no efforts to locate and notify those servicemen and women who may have been exposed to the deadly poison.
She also acknowledged they are making no efforts to use their electronic database of failed disability claims to try to identify potential victims and get them to reapply.
Instead, they're putting a note on their website and counting on the media attention to do their work for them.
And worse, Veterans Affairs has no set standard for what constitutes "exposure" and will decide on a case by case basis.
That's an approach long ago rejected by their counterparts in the United States because of how well near impossible it will be for veterans to prove they were directly exposed 40 years ago. In the U.S., Agent Orange disability claims have long been judged on a "presumptive" basis.
If you have the specific diseases and you served on the ground in Vietnam, it is presumed likely that your disease is caused by Agent Orange.
It's a decision which acknowledges both the scientific uncertainty surrounding exposure issues, as well as the simple gratitude the country owes the men and women who pledge their lives in our service.
Canadian veterans deserve no less.
bdunphy@thespec.com
905-526-3262
By Bill Dunphy
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jun 18, 2005)
Canada's Department of Veterans Affairs has belatedly taken steps to deal with the growing pile of disability claims from Canadian veterans who fear that military exposure to Agent Orange has left them ill, disabled and even dying.
Sandra Williamson, the department's acting director of programs and policy, revealed yesterday that the department is forming a special review committee to re-examine all failed Agent Orange disability claims and to process what may prove to be a flood of new ones.
"We're encouraging any (veteran) who believes he or she may be suffering illnesses related to Agent Orange exposure to contact us," Williamson said.
Disability claims will be judged on the very latest available scientific evidence, she said.
"We're taking a fair, flexible and reasonable approach," Williamson told me.
"We're encouraging veterans to come forward. They'll be dealt with in as timely a manner as we can."
Two Hamilton veterans have already come forward to say they suspect their Type 2 diabetes (so-called late onset diabetes) may be a direct result of the time they spent at CFB Gagetown in areas used as a testing ground for the toxic defoliant. Both men worry even more serious diseases may follow.
The news broke one month ago after the government finally acknowledged -- in two cases -- that veterans had fallen ill after being exposed to Agent Orange during the little known testing of the powerful herbicide at the Gagetown, New Brunswick, army base in 1966.
One of those two soldiers died before he could receive his disability benefits. A third soldier granted disability benefits was exposed during peace-keeping duty in Vietnam.
The wide use of Agent Orange by the American forces in the Vietnam war has been linked to a series of sometimes fatal cancers and other illnesses, but Canadian authorities had previously denied there were any health risks associated with the Agent Orange testing by American crews at Gagetown.
They have now admitted what some veterans have been saying for years and the only questions that remain are how many others have fallen ill and how many will ever receive disability pensions.
Since they began tracking Agent Orange claims in 2000, Veteran Affairs has accepted two and rejected 23. One of the latter was overturned on appeal last week.
As many as 350 veterans have inquired about making a claim in the past month.
The two Hamilton veterans who say their diabetes may be a direct result of Agent Orange exposure yesterday expressed skepticism about the new special review committee.
"I'm a little skeptical because they've said they're going to do a bunch of stuff, but they never do it," Leslie Kitson said.
Kitson has some experience in the matter.
It took him seven appeals before he was finally granted a 25 per cent disability after a sporting accident in the service left him with permanent double vision in one eye.
His application for benefits for his diabetes was turned down just last year.
"I'll apply again and see what they say," he said.
John Walker's application is still with his doctor, but he too was no more than cautious about yesterday's announcement.
"I'm glad to hear they say they're going to take an interest. Whether they do or not remains to be seen."
Walker is still furious that officials are refusing to notify every soldier who served at Gagetown and may have been exposed.
So furious that last week he tried to get the Hamilton RCMP office to open an investigation of government officials on charges of criminal negligence causing death.
Police considered the matter for several days, then refused to open an investigation, he told me.
Walker's anger is well placed, as is both men's skepticism.
For while the Veteran Affairs announcement sounds like good news, once you lift the curtains, it begins to look more and more like damage control.
Despite the best efforts of a public relations official I could hear whispering answers for her during the hour-long interview, Williamson was forced to admit Veteran Affairs is making no efforts to locate and notify those servicemen and women who may have been exposed to the deadly poison.
She also acknowledged they are making no efforts to use their electronic database of failed disability claims to try to identify potential victims and get them to reapply.
Instead, they're putting a note on their website and counting on the media attention to do their work for them.
And worse, Veterans Affairs has no set standard for what constitutes "exposure" and will decide on a case by case basis.
That's an approach long ago rejected by their counterparts in the United States because of how well near impossible it will be for veterans to prove they were directly exposed 40 years ago. In the U.S., Agent Orange disability claims have long been judged on a "presumptive" basis.
If you have the specific diseases and you served on the ground in Vietnam, it is presumed likely that your disease is caused by Agent Orange.
It's a decision which acknowledges both the scientific uncertainty surrounding exposure issues, as well as the simple gratitude the country owes the men and women who pledge their lives in our service.
Canadian veterans deserve no less.
bdunphy@thespec.com
905-526-3262
O
oldvet
Guest
My point in referring to the disposal of CW agents was to make clear that you didn't have to be crawling throught the bush in Gagetown to be exposed to agent orange or other CW agents. The air you were breathing while jogging in suburban Mississauga; the dust you breathed while on a route march; the water you drank from a well or from a creek may all have been contaminated. In the 1970's nobody reallly cared where the stuff went, so long as it went away. It was not unheard of for a load to go over the hill and vanish. Similarly, it was not unusual for drums of the stuff to be buried in some convenient out of sight location, or dumped in a ravine or lake somewhere. The health problems many of us are now suffering from could well be related to this careless disposal of the stuff; and nobody really knows where it all is. Regarding the government: after a lifetime of having to deal with government officialdom, I find it wise that if one of them tells me it is daylight outside, I will sent three people to check. To paraphrase Winston Churchill (?): "We have nothing to fear but the self interested corruption of our leaders".
Hi Everyone
I have been talking with the senior pension officer with the DVA for Nova Scotia in regard to a compensation claim for my mother since my father died in 1999 of a rare form of cancer which is one of the cancers caused by Agent Orange.
The reception from the pension officer at the DVA was courteous and helpful and I have already received an application kit for the process of applying for a compensation disability pension on behalf of my mother. I have to say that the application kit is very basic and not all complex or having one to 'jump through hoops'. One has to prove that a person was there at CFB Gagetown, and the other criteria is that a doctor certify that the person died of one of a range of diseases that are generally recognized to be caused by Agent Orange, however there seems to be latitude in the range of diseases and disorders in the telephone discussion that I had with the senior pension officer. And it seems that the process may be presumptive rather than having to prove actual association.
As I understand their official position each case will be dealt with on a case by case basis, but it is my observation from the letter that I received and the documentation required and my discussion with the senior pension officer that it 'appears' that they are taking a presumptive course of action. That is only my observation though and may not be the case.
There are some facts which I would like to bring to everyone's attention concerning the spraying of defoliants at CFB Gagetown.
1) Defoliation occurred from 1956 to 1967 inclusive on a large scale. Thus the story of "testing by the US military" is just part of the cover up that went on for the past 49 years.
In 1956, defoliation started on a massive scale involving thousands of acres throughout the ensuing years, using a product called Bushkill. BrushKill contained 2,4,5, D & 2,4,5,T, in effect it is Agent Orange. However, what is not currently known is the level of Dioxin in the Brushkill. Emails that I have been receiving from former sprayers of Brushkill are insisting that the toxicity was far higher than "the watered down version of Agent Orange".
It would appear that because Base Gagetown had the defoliation policy in place since 1956 to clear the brush and forest by applying Brushkill, that the Americans were given permission to test their versions of defoliants because DND was already defoliating on a wide scale basis and had been since 1956. The American versions of the defoliant were the same chemicals, just that they were given names like Agent Orange, Agent Purple, Agent White, Pink and so. These became known as the "rainbow" herbicides in their use in Vietnam.
2) There was a spray accident in 1964, which involved the spray, now known as Agent Orange. The spray was blown off the Base because of a temperature inversion and poisoned civilian communities over a wide area on the opposite side of the St. John River. Most of these communities were market-garden orientated. It is interesting to note that the Crown compensated the farmers for extensive crop damage in the amount of $250,000 in 1964 dollars.
So the government has already set a precedent of compensating civilians for exposure to and poisoning by Agent Orange.
Because I allowed my story, name and email address to be used on New Brunswick MLA Jody Carr's website, I have been receiving dozens of emails from people all across Canada with horror stories of their families dying of all kinds of cancers, organ dysfunctions of all kinds, some like mine, and some having various neurological disorders, miscarriages, birth defects etc...the common thread among all these emails is that they were all military families that were based at CFB Gagetown/Oromocto during the late fifties and throughout the sixties. So the anger out there is growing as the stories keep unfolding.
The Government is having a public meeting sometime either this week or next week at CFB Gagetown to give an information session as well as to hear from the civilian population affected. I intend on driving from Kingston here to CFB Gagetown to attend that public meeting.
One of the concerns that immediately comes to mind is that fact that these lands along the St. John River have been producing vegetables on a massive scale for decades. If the farms were so damaged by Agent Orange in 1964 that the Crown had to compensate them, why were these farms allowed to grow produce that would have gone into the food chain via grocery stores, not only in New Brunswick but by exporting of the produce to other parts of the country.
Dioxin has a half life of nine years, that means that the farmers in that area of the St. John River who grew and sold vegetables from 1965 to 1973 were selling produce that probably was contaminated with Dioxin.
It makes one very concerned not only as to why they would have been allowed to sell their produce, but how has that produce affected the people who consumed the vegetables.
and just for everyone's info.
"This Tuesday the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs will be hearing from officials with the two departments in Ottawa concerning Agent Orange spraying at CFB Gagetown.
NOTICE OF MEETING
Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs
Tuesday, June 21, 2005
9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.
Room 269, West Block
Orders of the Day - Televised
1. Briefing session on Agent Orange
Witnesses - Department of National Defence
Karen Ellis, Assistant Deputy Minister
Infrastructure and Environment
Witnesses - Department of Veterans Affairs
Sandra Williamson, Acting Director
Program Policy Directorate, Veterans Services Branch
Bryson Guptill, Director
Program & Service Redesign Modernization Task Force, Veterans Services Branch
emails from affected veterans and civilians are welcome at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca
Regards,
Ken Dobbie
I have been talking with the senior pension officer with the DVA for Nova Scotia in regard to a compensation claim for my mother since my father died in 1999 of a rare form of cancer which is one of the cancers caused by Agent Orange.
The reception from the pension officer at the DVA was courteous and helpful and I have already received an application kit for the process of applying for a compensation disability pension on behalf of my mother. I have to say that the application kit is very basic and not all complex or having one to 'jump through hoops'. One has to prove that a person was there at CFB Gagetown, and the other criteria is that a doctor certify that the person died of one of a range of diseases that are generally recognized to be caused by Agent Orange, however there seems to be latitude in the range of diseases and disorders in the telephone discussion that I had with the senior pension officer. And it seems that the process may be presumptive rather than having to prove actual association.
As I understand their official position each case will be dealt with on a case by case basis, but it is my observation from the letter that I received and the documentation required and my discussion with the senior pension officer that it 'appears' that they are taking a presumptive course of action. That is only my observation though and may not be the case.
There are some facts which I would like to bring to everyone's attention concerning the spraying of defoliants at CFB Gagetown.
1) Defoliation occurred from 1956 to 1967 inclusive on a large scale. Thus the story of "testing by the US military" is just part of the cover up that went on for the past 49 years.
In 1956, defoliation started on a massive scale involving thousands of acres throughout the ensuing years, using a product called Bushkill. BrushKill contained 2,4,5, D & 2,4,5,T, in effect it is Agent Orange. However, what is not currently known is the level of Dioxin in the Brushkill. Emails that I have been receiving from former sprayers of Brushkill are insisting that the toxicity was far higher than "the watered down version of Agent Orange".
It would appear that because Base Gagetown had the defoliation policy in place since 1956 to clear the brush and forest by applying Brushkill, that the Americans were given permission to test their versions of defoliants because DND was already defoliating on a wide scale basis and had been since 1956. The American versions of the defoliant were the same chemicals, just that they were given names like Agent Orange, Agent Purple, Agent White, Pink and so. These became known as the "rainbow" herbicides in their use in Vietnam.
2) There was a spray accident in 1964, which involved the spray, now known as Agent Orange. The spray was blown off the Base because of a temperature inversion and poisoned civilian communities over a wide area on the opposite side of the St. John River. Most of these communities were market-garden orientated. It is interesting to note that the Crown compensated the farmers for extensive crop damage in the amount of $250,000 in 1964 dollars.
So the government has already set a precedent of compensating civilians for exposure to and poisoning by Agent Orange.
Because I allowed my story, name and email address to be used on New Brunswick MLA Jody Carr's website, I have been receiving dozens of emails from people all across Canada with horror stories of their families dying of all kinds of cancers, organ dysfunctions of all kinds, some like mine, and some having various neurological disorders, miscarriages, birth defects etc...the common thread among all these emails is that they were all military families that were based at CFB Gagetown/Oromocto during the late fifties and throughout the sixties. So the anger out there is growing as the stories keep unfolding.
The Government is having a public meeting sometime either this week or next week at CFB Gagetown to give an information session as well as to hear from the civilian population affected. I intend on driving from Kingston here to CFB Gagetown to attend that public meeting.
One of the concerns that immediately comes to mind is that fact that these lands along the St. John River have been producing vegetables on a massive scale for decades. If the farms were so damaged by Agent Orange in 1964 that the Crown had to compensate them, why were these farms allowed to grow produce that would have gone into the food chain via grocery stores, not only in New Brunswick but by exporting of the produce to other parts of the country.
Dioxin has a half life of nine years, that means that the farmers in that area of the St. John River who grew and sold vegetables from 1965 to 1973 were selling produce that probably was contaminated with Dioxin.
It makes one very concerned not only as to why they would have been allowed to sell their produce, but how has that produce affected the people who consumed the vegetables.
and just for everyone's info.
"This Tuesday the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs will be hearing from officials with the two departments in Ottawa concerning Agent Orange spraying at CFB Gagetown.
NOTICE OF MEETING
Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs
Tuesday, June 21, 2005
9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.
Room 269, West Block
Orders of the Day - Televised
1. Briefing session on Agent Orange
Witnesses - Department of National Defence
Karen Ellis, Assistant Deputy Minister
Infrastructure and Environment
Witnesses - Department of Veterans Affairs
Sandra Williamson, Acting Director
Program Policy Directorate, Veterans Services Branch
Bryson Guptill, Director
Program & Service Redesign Modernization Task Force, Veterans Services Branch
emails from affected veterans and civilians are welcome at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca
Regards,
Ken Dobbie
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- Points
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I don't know if this link has already been posted but this man put up a website about his father and his death from cancer that may have been caused by agent orange.
http://agentorangealert.com/pages/1/index.htm
http://agentorangealert.com/pages/1/index.htm
Hello Everyone
I received a file today from DND concerning the spraying of CFB Gagetown, of the 82 pages there are 43 that are "withheld", just totally blank pages, I have to assume that since the briefing contains information about medical records of personnel in conjunction with the use of the defoliants that this is considered to be private information. However, it also provokes questions as to just what medical conditions these people have and this briefing was put out in 1984.
Note the official spray program lasted from 1956 to 1984
OVERVIEW OF HERBICIDE SPRAY PROGRAMME CFB GAGETOWN 1956-1984
1956 3,687 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1957 3,879 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1958 8,018 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1959 No spraying
1960 9,079 Acres sprayed with AMMATE and 2, 4, 5, T
1961 5,189 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, 5, T
1962 No spraying
1963 9,643 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1964 9,225 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1965 4,708 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1966 8,431 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101 & unknown amount of Acres sprayed with Agent Purple
1967 7,375 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101 & unknown amount of Acres sprayed with Agent Purple
2,000 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D
1968 5,675 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1969 3,710 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1970 9,550 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1971 9,625 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1972 10,213 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1973 8,664 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1974 4,144 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
3,149 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1975 8,855 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1976 6,041 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1977 5,963 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
300 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P
1978 6,055 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
60 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P
1979 2,982 Acres sprayed with TORDON 10K
102 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P
1980 4,795 Acres sprayed with TORDON 10K
1981 1,847 Hectares (4564 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
102 Hectares (252 Acres) sprayed with HERBEC 20P
1982 1,531 Hectares (3783 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
1983 1,455 Hectares (3595 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
183 Hectares (452 Acres) sprayed with HERBEC 20P
1984 2,825 Hectares (6980 Acres) sprayed with DYCLEER LH+
Unknown acres sprayed with SILVAPROP (but 550 barrels used)
Total Acreage sprayed from 1956 to 1984 - 181,038 Acres sprayed with 6,504 barrels (45 gallon) which is 292,680 gallons or 1,328,767 litres of defoliant chemicals
I looked up TORDON 101, have a look at the link I think it says enough about TORDON.
http://www.dowagro.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=ca/pdfs/noreg/010-20085.pdf&pdf=true
It would appear that the switch from 2,4,D & 2,4,5,T to TORDON was supposed to be less poisonous, I wonder just how much research is being done on TORDON as to Human poisoning? Scary isn't it??
Some more thoughts for you.
Ken Dobbie
I received a file today from DND concerning the spraying of CFB Gagetown, of the 82 pages there are 43 that are "withheld", just totally blank pages, I have to assume that since the briefing contains information about medical records of personnel in conjunction with the use of the defoliants that this is considered to be private information. However, it also provokes questions as to just what medical conditions these people have and this briefing was put out in 1984.
Note the official spray program lasted from 1956 to 1984
OVERVIEW OF HERBICIDE SPRAY PROGRAMME CFB GAGETOWN 1956-1984
1956 3,687 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1957 3,879 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1958 8,018 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1959 No spraying
1960 9,079 Acres sprayed with AMMATE and 2, 4, 5, T
1961 5,189 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, 5, T
1962 No spraying
1963 9,643 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1964 9,225 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T
1965 4,708 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1966 8,431 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101 & unknown amount of Acres sprayed with Agent Purple
1967 7,375 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101 & unknown amount of Acres sprayed with Agent Purple
2,000 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D
1968 5,675 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1969 3,710 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1970 9,550 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1971 9,625 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1972 10,213 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1973 8,664 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1974 4,144 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
3,149 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1975 8,855 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1976 6,041 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1977 5,963 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
300 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P
1978 6,055 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
60 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P
1979 2,982 Acres sprayed with TORDON 10K
102 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P
1980 4,795 Acres sprayed with TORDON 10K
1981 1,847 Hectares (4564 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
102 Hectares (252 Acres) sprayed with HERBEC 20P
1982 1,531 Hectares (3783 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
1983 1,455 Hectares (3595 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
183 Hectares (452 Acres) sprayed with HERBEC 20P
1984 2,825 Hectares (6980 Acres) sprayed with DYCLEER LH+
Unknown acres sprayed with SILVAPROP (but 550 barrels used)
Total Acreage sprayed from 1956 to 1984 - 181,038 Acres sprayed with 6,504 barrels (45 gallon) which is 292,680 gallons or 1,328,767 litres of defoliant chemicals
I looked up TORDON 101, have a look at the link I think it says enough about TORDON.
http://www.dowagro.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=ca/pdfs/noreg/010-20085.pdf&pdf=true
It would appear that the switch from 2,4,D & 2,4,5,T to TORDON was supposed to be less poisonous, I wonder just how much research is being done on TORDON as to Human poisoning? Scary isn't it??
Some more thoughts for you.
Ken Dobbie
- Reaction score
- 6,434
- Points
- 1,360
The highlights just about sum up the way business was done back then. :rage:
Tue, June 21, 2005
They're still looking into the matter
Even after Agent Orange's toxic qualities had been acknowledged, the Canadian government was still in denial
By Greg Weston -- Sun Ottawa Bureau
In May of last year, National Defence received an official inquiry from the son of a dead veteran, one of potentially thousands of Canadian troops exposed to the lethal Agent Orange herbicide while posted at Gagetown, N.B.
The correspondence resulted in a series of internal Defence Department memos sure to sicken vets everywhere, and should equally enrage all Canadians.
The man (identified only as Bryan in the censored documents we reviewed), noted his father had served at Gagetown in the 1960s when the U.S. military was allowed to spray-bomb the Canadian base with Agent Orange, testing the powerful defoliant for jungle clearing during the Vietnam War.
Worse, Bryan said, before his father died, "he spoke of himself and other soldiers cleaning up a spill of Agent Orange." (Documents indicate there was at least one such spill.)
His dad and the others, Bryan said, were dead or dying of cancers and other ailments which the U.S. military officially linked to Agent Orange more than a decade ago.
Bryan's question to National Defence was simple and obvious: What, if anything, was the Canadian government doing for the Agent Orange victims and their families?
By the time Bryan wrote his letter in May of last year, the response should have been straightforward.
Since 1993, the U.S. military has been paying compensation to Vietnam vets suffering any of the dozens of cancers and other diseases linked to Agent Orange exposure.
By the time Bryan's note hit the DND in-basket here, there were hundreds of American websites devoted to Agent Orange, and entire U.S. government agencies and private associations helping Vietnam vets deal with the tragic aftermath of exposure to these horrible chemicals. Even here in Canada, by the time Bryan got a final reply in July, 2004, the Department of Veterans Affairs here had ruled in its own landmark case.
The month before, Veterans Affairs upheld a claim by retired Brig.-Gen. Gordon Sellar that he had contracted leukemia as a result of his exposure to Agent Orange at Gagetown in 1966.
As we said, given the massive amounts of information available from the U.S., given the ruling of the feds here, given all that was known, the response to Bryan should have been a no-brainer:
Yes, Bryan, your father's contact with Agent Orange probably killed him, and his family is therefore entitled to compensation with a nation's deepest apologies.
Instead, here is what Bryan got from his government:
The first note was from a lieutenant-colonel who said he was "not in a position to comment on whether or not the issue of Agent Orange has been brought to the attention of Canadian Forces authorities. I will try to track down someone that can provide this information."
Bryan wrote back, thanking the colonel for his response, adding: "I would certainly appreciate hearing if there has been any type of investigation into Agent Orange."
The colonel replied that someone from the Canadian Forces Medical Group "will be contacting you in due course to answer your questions on Agent Orange that are of a scientific nature."
That someone was Dr. Samy Mohanna, deputy chief of staff for the DND health protection branch. In a draft reply, copied to five other high-ranking defence officials, Mohanna said he had reviewed the information given to him.
"In June of 1966, Agent Orange was used as a potential herbicide," he wrote. "Helicopters did the spraying on very small plots of uninhabited areas with very dense vegetation."
The deputy head of health protection for DND concluded (remember, this is after Veterans Affairs has already acknowledged Agent Orange caused the cancer that killed Brig.-Gen. Sellar): "No civilian or military personnel were placed at risk, and no civilian community was affected.
"No indications from medical records have suggested ill health effects."
A call to Mohanna's office yesterday got a message recorded three months ago, saying: "I am retiring today."
A National Defence spokesman refused to comment, saying the department would be holding a special press briefing on Agent Orange "sometime soon."
Tue, June 21, 2005
They're still looking into the matter
Even after Agent Orange's toxic qualities had been acknowledged, the Canadian government was still in denial
By Greg Weston -- Sun Ottawa Bureau
In May of last year, National Defence received an official inquiry from the son of a dead veteran, one of potentially thousands of Canadian troops exposed to the lethal Agent Orange herbicide while posted at Gagetown, N.B.
The correspondence resulted in a series of internal Defence Department memos sure to sicken vets everywhere, and should equally enrage all Canadians.
The man (identified only as Bryan in the censored documents we reviewed), noted his father had served at Gagetown in the 1960s when the U.S. military was allowed to spray-bomb the Canadian base with Agent Orange, testing the powerful defoliant for jungle clearing during the Vietnam War.
Worse, Bryan said, before his father died, "he spoke of himself and other soldiers cleaning up a spill of Agent Orange." (Documents indicate there was at least one such spill.)
His dad and the others, Bryan said, were dead or dying of cancers and other ailments which the U.S. military officially linked to Agent Orange more than a decade ago.
Bryan's question to National Defence was simple and obvious: What, if anything, was the Canadian government doing for the Agent Orange victims and their families?
By the time Bryan wrote his letter in May of last year, the response should have been straightforward.
Since 1993, the U.S. military has been paying compensation to Vietnam vets suffering any of the dozens of cancers and other diseases linked to Agent Orange exposure.
By the time Bryan's note hit the DND in-basket here, there were hundreds of American websites devoted to Agent Orange, and entire U.S. government agencies and private associations helping Vietnam vets deal with the tragic aftermath of exposure to these horrible chemicals. Even here in Canada, by the time Bryan got a final reply in July, 2004, the Department of Veterans Affairs here had ruled in its own landmark case.
The month before, Veterans Affairs upheld a claim by retired Brig.-Gen. Gordon Sellar that he had contracted leukemia as a result of his exposure to Agent Orange at Gagetown in 1966.
As we said, given the massive amounts of information available from the U.S., given the ruling of the feds here, given all that was known, the response to Bryan should have been a no-brainer:
Yes, Bryan, your father's contact with Agent Orange probably killed him, and his family is therefore entitled to compensation with a nation's deepest apologies.
Instead, here is what Bryan got from his government:
The first note was from a lieutenant-colonel who said he was "not in a position to comment on whether or not the issue of Agent Orange has been brought to the attention of Canadian Forces authorities. I will try to track down someone that can provide this information."
Bryan wrote back, thanking the colonel for his response, adding: "I would certainly appreciate hearing if there has been any type of investigation into Agent Orange."
The colonel replied that someone from the Canadian Forces Medical Group "will be contacting you in due course to answer your questions on Agent Orange that are of a scientific nature."
That someone was Dr. Samy Mohanna, deputy chief of staff for the DND health protection branch. In a draft reply, copied to five other high-ranking defence officials, Mohanna said he had reviewed the information given to him.
"In June of 1966, Agent Orange was used as a potential herbicide," he wrote. "Helicopters did the spraying on very small plots of uninhabited areas with very dense vegetation."
The deputy head of health protection for DND concluded (remember, this is after Veterans Affairs has already acknowledged Agent Orange caused the cancer that killed Brig.-Gen. Sellar): "No civilian or military personnel were placed at risk, and no civilian community was affected.
"No indications from medical records have suggested ill health effects."
A call to Mohanna's office yesterday got a message recorded three months ago, saying: "I am retiring today."
A National Defence spokesman refused to comment, saying the department would be holding a special press briefing on Agent Orange "sometime soon."
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 160
no update as yet concerning the autopsy... my husband is still with the pathologist... BUT
I think all the upper Military staff might have retired in the last couple of months... I have no other explanation for the following... :warstory:
On January 10 2005, when all hope was lost and my husband was told he was terminal.. my son (a serving member) asked for a letter to outline things to his superiors. He was due for a transfer. He submitted this letter requesting that his 'Career Manager' be informed. At that time he was told that the Career Manager was expected shortly (which he knew) and that he could speak with the CM at their meeting. He did so to no avail, he was transferred effective June 1 2005. At that time he submitted his release. The release was not accepted by his CO and the CO arranged a 30 day extension time enough to request and do the interviews for a compassionate posting and that is what he did. The Compassionate was submitted on May 1 2005 and as you all know his dad died on May 21. Two weeks after his dad's death he was called to his section CWO and told that his dad was gone so now his compassionate had no standing. The base social worker had included in the first interview report that his mother would need him to help out after his dad past and therefore a 2year compassionate was substantiated.
I phoned my MP at his Ottawa office on June 6 and asked for him to look into all this (a secretary of course), On June 7 I phoned my MP at his local office. On June 14, I phoned the local office again and was told that my MP had the file and was arranging a meeting with the Minister of Defense.. I have heard nothing.
That office is not answering the phone when I call to see if any further info is available.
Now yesterday I went to see my Provincial MLA very early in the morning and he told me he would look into it by contacting my MP (to see what info he might have) and that he would speak to the Base commander on my behalf. Well, I guess he could not contact either person cause it is now 2 full days and I have heard nothing, after trying to contact him.
Meanwhile my son is being told to sit tight verbally (get it in writing is the motto of the military). Friday July 1 is coming up fast and his compassionate request has been in Ottawa for almost 8 weeks. His release request has been on his COs desk longer than that.
When does the hammer hit the other side of my head? I think I have a spot available for another good swat. but I think you can see why I say that the upper staff of the military must have all retired. With the time that I have been around and involved with the military, I have never seen a serving member or their family treated in this fashion.
I think all the upper Military staff might have retired in the last couple of months... I have no other explanation for the following... :warstory:
On January 10 2005, when all hope was lost and my husband was told he was terminal.. my son (a serving member) asked for a letter to outline things to his superiors. He was due for a transfer. He submitted this letter requesting that his 'Career Manager' be informed. At that time he was told that the Career Manager was expected shortly (which he knew) and that he could speak with the CM at their meeting. He did so to no avail, he was transferred effective June 1 2005. At that time he submitted his release. The release was not accepted by his CO and the CO arranged a 30 day extension time enough to request and do the interviews for a compassionate posting and that is what he did. The Compassionate was submitted on May 1 2005 and as you all know his dad died on May 21. Two weeks after his dad's death he was called to his section CWO and told that his dad was gone so now his compassionate had no standing. The base social worker had included in the first interview report that his mother would need him to help out after his dad past and therefore a 2year compassionate was substantiated.
I phoned my MP at his Ottawa office on June 6 and asked for him to look into all this (a secretary of course), On June 7 I phoned my MP at his local office. On June 14, I phoned the local office again and was told that my MP had the file and was arranging a meeting with the Minister of Defense.. I have heard nothing.
That office is not answering the phone when I call to see if any further info is available.
Now yesterday I went to see my Provincial MLA very early in the morning and he told me he would look into it by contacting my MP (to see what info he might have) and that he would speak to the Base commander on my behalf. Well, I guess he could not contact either person cause it is now 2 full days and I have heard nothing, after trying to contact him.
Meanwhile my son is being told to sit tight verbally (get it in writing is the motto of the military). Friday July 1 is coming up fast and his compassionate request has been in Ottawa for almost 8 weeks. His release request has been on his COs desk longer than that.
When does the hammer hit the other side of my head? I think I have a spot available for another good swat. but I think you can see why I say that the upper staff of the military must have all retired. With the time that I have been around and involved with the military, I have never seen a serving member or their family treated in this fashion.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
dalriada said:
Ken,
Any pages or sections that have been redacted from the document you received should have a number to indicate the section of the Access to Information Act that provided the exemption from release. From that you could see if it was a Privacy issue, or something else. You may find that some info cannot be released because it is concerning our Allies (such as the US), and we are automatically prohibited from releasing it.
Acorn
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Is there a site where the "associated" diseases may be listed?
I was in Gagetown from 82-86, spent lots of time crawling around the bush. In 95 I was diagnosed with an extremely rare auto immune disease that started attacking my kidneys, no family history, no ideas of the cause. I think my Doc would like to read up a bit about these herbicides.
I shudder when I think of all the folks who were there before and after me.
God Bless
I was in Gagetown from 82-86, spent lots of time crawling around the bush. In 95 I was diagnosed with an extremely rare auto immune disease that started attacking my kidneys, no family history, no ideas of the cause. I think my Doc would like to read up a bit about these herbicides.
I shudder when I think of all the folks who were there before and after me.
God Bless
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
A 1970 report from national defence to parliament stated that "no research carried out by the Department of National Defence has affected the use of chemicals in Vietnam." Former defence minister Paul Hellyer says such tests were actually routine, but he attempts to downplay the issue by pointing out that Agent Orange was tested as a tactical weapon, not a chemical weapon.
The Uniroyal plant in Elmira, Ont., was one of seven suppliers producing Agent Orange for the U.S. military."
MY QUESTION: someone should ask Paul Hellyer: Where in the name of heck do you get off testing a tactical weapon on Canadian citizens and your own military ? Minister Hellyer knowingly used a dangerous / tactical chemical weapon, this man should be helled for crimes against humanity. We need a public Inquiry looking into who knew what and who were the senior bureaucrats involved. How much money did Uniroyal pump into the political parties of the day to be able to pull this off?
Regards
Wayne Coady, Cole Harbour Nova Scotia, (902)434-9306 wcoady@accesswave.ca
CC: All Members of Parliament
The Uniroyal plant in Elmira, Ont., was one of seven suppliers producing Agent Orange for the U.S. military."
MY QUESTION: someone should ask Paul Hellyer: Where in the name of heck do you get off testing a tactical weapon on Canadian citizens and your own military ? Minister Hellyer knowingly used a dangerous / tactical chemical weapon, this man should be helled for crimes against humanity. We need a public Inquiry looking into who knew what and who were the senior bureaucrats involved. How much money did Uniroyal pump into the political parties of the day to be able to pull this off?
Regards
Wayne Coady, Cole Harbour Nova Scotia, (902)434-9306 wcoady@accesswave.ca
CC: All Members of Parliament
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
IMHO it wouldn't necessarily have taken any bribing or corruption for the safety of soldiers to have been neglected: it was the way it was in the 1960s, not just in the military but elsewhere: civ firefighters in those days rarely wore their SCBA (some didn't even have it), road dept employees were regularly exposed to PCB-laced waste oil used for oiling dirt roads, much of the health, safety and quality controls we have on products and services today didn't exist, and pollution wasn't really taken seriously, nor was smoking nor wearing seatbelts. That was just on civvy street. In the military we had lots of examples of this kind of thing in the '50s and 60s: the use of unprotected troops to clean up contaminated soil at the Chalk River reactor site, and the exposure of Canadian soldiers to nuclear detonations in the US. I doubt anybody really questioned it much at the time. Holding Paul Hellyer accountable won't do much: we are paying now for the prevalent attitude then.
Cheers.
Cheers.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
A bigger crime is the BIG GOVERNMENT era and high taxes that he was in on --- but thats my hobby horse
If the cabinet said we accept to test this stuff - then recourse through the same measures as we saw through Gomery - but it maybe slow - especially when a lot of the senior people are now DEAD
Any crimes they may have been involved in were going to be perpetrated on the Commies who weren't going to sue for compensation because they were going to be DEAD
Hellyer derailed the Military and steered the cash into payoffs to the provinces and social spending
However there is a on going program to pay off gas warfare volunteers from the 1940s
Keep plugging!
If the cabinet said we accept to test this stuff - then recourse through the same measures as we saw through Gomery - but it maybe slow - especially when a lot of the senior people are now DEAD
Any crimes they may have been involved in were going to be perpetrated on the Commies who weren't going to sue for compensation because they were going to be DEAD
Hellyer derailed the Military and steered the cash into payoffs to the provinces and social spending
However there is a on going program to pay off gas warfare volunteers from the 1940s
Keep plugging!
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Agent Orange was/is a defoliant, not a "tactical weapon" in the sense that it was designed to cause harm to the enemy. It was designed to reduce the top cover of the jungle canopy that the NVA used to cover movements.
That doesn't change it's effects to those exposed (or the need to deal with and compensate those exposed), but it would be a gross exaggeration to claim that it is some sort of chemical weapon.
Acorn
That doesn't change it's effects to those exposed (or the need to deal with and compensate those exposed), but it would be a gross exaggeration to claim that it is some sort of chemical weapon.
Acorn
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