The APV Thread

[George Wallace]

Is the ARMOURED PATROL VEHICLE a novel and new name for a vehicle that we need to augment our job as Armour Crewmen in the Recce Role.  Remember it can also be used by other Cbt Arms, Combat Support and Combat Service Support in the performance of their duties.  While some of these vehicles will be too large and cumbersome to be Recce Vehicles in the true sense, they may come in handy to transport Assault Troops and also as Command Carriers.  They may be ideal vehicles for the Convoy Escort Role and Rear Area Security.  If the Corps did decide to acquire these vehicles, would that now cause confusion in what roles Troopers will fill in the Regiments?  Some would be deligated solely to Rear Area Security and Convoy Escort tasks and others would be relegated to OPs and Surv Tasks.  The Corps would still be left without a true Recce Vehicle to conduct Route Recce tasks. 

What will vehicles like the Buffalo provide?

http://www.forceprotection.net/models/buffalo/specs/buffalo_spec.pdf

http://www.forceprotection.net/models/buffalo/

Or the USMC Cougar:

http://www.afvnews.ca/cgi-bin/web-bbs/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/60003

Do these types of vehicle have a place in the Armour Corps, or should they be left to the "Truckers" and Engineers?

 

[a_majoor]

These look similar in concept to the Australian "Bushmaster" http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-equip/bushmaster.htm.

In the Australian Army, the Bushmaster is treated like an APC (M-113 on wheels) as an integral part of the unit. Only two units apparently have a different force model, "Shareing" Bushmasters crewed by Armoured soldiers.

In a perfect world, these sorts of vehicles would be in the HQ squadron and Admin troops of an Armoured Regiment, but they do not bring anything special to the table as far as special Armoured Corps skills or duties go.

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps the decision has already been made as to what vehicle will be purchased and role it is likely to play.  According to the Saturday 8 Oct 2005 Ottawa Citizen, http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=50135b34-186c-4b7d-8715-f2afc3dcf21e JTF2 has received armoured transport trucks from a U.S. company, Stewart and Stevenson, for use in Afghanistan.  If this is true, will the rest of the CF follow suit, or will these vehicles become "Unit Identifiers" for this unit?

 

[Unknown C/S]

George,
      Like so many other "purchases" the Gov't will pick something up, deliver it to the military and someone will have to figure out how to employ it.
      At what point will the military receive equipment to fit the role? (i.e Here is a coyote now you guys come up with a plan on how it can be used)
      Don't get me wrong, Good piece of kit, but did the corp specifically ask for it??? (But now I'm off on a tangent.......)

 

[a_majoor]

If we were to get some sort of APV for the CF, I would suggest the ideal place for them would be in the Armoured Reserve regiments. They are not as "complex" as the Coyote in terms of operater learning curves and maintainence, and the roles that George suggests (convoy protection, command carrier, rear area security and assault troop carrier) would be ideal for Reserve soldiers.

If I were to choose, I would go for the Bushmaster, and make the economy of scale purchase for not only the Reserve Recce regiments, but also as Reserve APCs for Infantry and Engineer units as well. The Bushmaster has reasonable cross country mobility for this type of machine, allowing it to be used in more scenarios than the Buffalo, although the Buffalo looks like a great Pioneer/Engineer platform. (Put that Hyab arm on the Bushmaster and I might think again).

 

[sabot41]

Look for the Bushmaster to be purchased under a "Gun Tractor" type project later on, Dingo from KMW lost out to GDLS crap...or so I have heard, Bushmaster was the beast to go with, caught project by surprise when it was presented, but unforseen op logistics details, it had to be withdrawn from tender at the last minute...too bad

 

[McInnes]

Armoured patrol vehicles

The armoured patrol vehicle (APV) provides a high level of protection for troops while they conduct patrols, as well as command, liaison and reconnaissance tasks in mountainous terrain and complex urban centres. The APV incorporates enhanced mine blast resistance as well as protection against both improvised explosive devices and ballistic threats.

The APV will incorporate a remote weapon station, equipped with a day and night sighting system, permitting the operator to fire the weapon from within the vehicle while remaining protected.

Estimated project value : $120 million, including spares, logistics support, and project and contingency costs.
Quantity required : 50 APVs with an unfunded option for up to 25 additional vehicles.
Procurement : A competitive bid process was undertaken with three bidders having been identified through a "price and availability" check conducted through the Government Electronic Tendering System (MERX) in September 2005. A $60.3 million contract has been awarded to General Dynamics Land Systems - Canada to provide 50 armoured patrol vehicles. The vehicles will be a version of the RG-31 Nyala, produced by BAE Land Systems OMC in the Republic of South Africa.
Delivery: Deliveries of the vehicles are expected to begin in February 2006; they will begin to arrive in theatre by March 2006.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1833

 

[George Wallace]

Earlier today in another thread,  a more detailed report:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36955/post-302294.html#msg302294

 

[a_majoor]

Related to the APV is a new generation of scaled down vehicles which will suppliment the HMMWV. Like the APV, this is designed to provide passive protection against IEDs, mines etc. for the passengers and provide a limited ability to fight back. Here are two examples:

http://graniteglobalservices.com/automotive/photogalery.htm
http://www.forceprotection.net/news/news_article.html?id=54

 

[Gayson]

I suppose it can play a a role in recce.

It's a larger vehicle than the Gwagon and iltis, which can limit it to what ground it may cover.  However, the large amount of protection and the controlled gun IMO provide some nice advantages.

I think it could be suitable for open terrain where the enemy may have large fields of fire.  In such ground, it would be open to manuever and be able to take some hits.

Also, in an urban environment, or mountanous where the roads are wide enough I think it could work.  The fact that the gunner is protected inside and can remotely control the GPMG would allow the crew to work in a tight environment more safely than the Gwagon, minus the situational awareness with the lack of a head outside.

I personally believe that recce should never be limited to one vehicle, but have several at their disposal, allowing them to pick the tool for the trade sort to speak.

I think the APV can play an effective role as a recce vehicle, but like other platforms, has it's short comings that can be dealt with through the use of other vehicles.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Don't get comfortable. The harder you make the vehicle, the bigger they'll make the bombs. Simple math.

 

[missing1]

http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?find&catalog=photos&template=detail_e.np&field=itemid&op=matches&value=9768&site=combatcamera

Would you settle for this APV?? Lots of protection. ;D

 

[Gayson]

Don't get comfortable. The harder you make the vehicle, the bigger they'll make the bombs. Simple math.

True, but the enemy wont make every bomb huge either.

It's better to be able to survive most attacks rather than none of them.

 

[a_majoor]

I would be rather reluctant to consider an APV or even a mini-APV as a recce vehicle except under exceptional circumstances. The weight of the armour on the 4X4 chassis would drastically restrict cross country mobility just as a minimum (even pulling off the road to get around an obstacle could lead to big trouble), and don't forget this is just a protected SUPPORT vehicle, and not designed to perform the recce task.

For more discussion of what makes a good recce vehicle see:

Our 'maybe' new recce vehicle
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35535.0.html

Armoured Recce Vehicle
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36019.0.html

"Trading Saber for Stealth" or "Are We a One Trick Pony?" http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35526.0.html