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The Capital Punishment Debate

Should it be brought back?


  • Total voters
    133
Nothing says "oh, baby" like breaking someone on the wheel.

Or drawing and quartering.

Or heads on pikes, throughout the land.
 
Dont get sucked into the alure of statistics.  They could not be easier to manipulate.  Those states without the death penalty might be the larger, richer states who have a solid economic base and better health care, hence better hospitals, better treatment, less people dying.  If you dont die, you dont contribute to the homicide rate.  Its like everyone got excited when they heard that teen pregnancy was down by around 23% a couple of years back.  Great until you find out its because more girls are giving oral and anal.  GULP!!  Watch yer girls, daddies!
Just because EMS response and training is better than ever doesnt mean things arent getting more violent.  You have to roll in all of the person offences ie) assault lvl 1,2 and 3, threats, murder 1 and 2, manslaughter, crim neg causing harm and death, impaired causing bod harm and death and so on.  If someone put that together, we might see some interesting stats.
Over to you, graph-boy
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Partial edit for content
So the state should turn into torturers?

What does that prove?  

The justice system prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment".   Even for a Karla Homolka.   Why turn them into martyrs, or even worse, sympathetic figures?   And why promote the idea that killing can be satisfying?

A sedative, followed by a lethal injection, followed by a burial according to the deceased's religious faith, would be in keeping with the tenets of our judicial system and our society.   The rest of the trash talk here is just that, in my opinion.

Michael,

Was it not you who started this thread?

Michael Dorosh said:
Really kind of eye opening, reading the "facts" behind each case and some of the depraved acts committed.   Why people would go and protest the deaths of some of these guys is beyond me - like the guy who stabbed his wife to death with a screwdriver through the window of her car - while their 10 year old son sat in the passenger seat - because she asked for a divorce.

You call them depraved but would wish them a peaceful death, free of pain and sufferring?   Sorry don't follow, nor buy that....

dileas

tess
 
A sedative, followed by a lethal injection, followed by a burial according to the deceased's religious faith, would be in keeping with the tenets of our judicial system and our society.  The rest of the trash talk here is just that, in my opinion.

I like this idea too.

No big bang, no fan fair, no cruel and unusual punishment. Nice and quiet. Deny them any sembelence of going out with a bang.  Your a loser and your gonna die in a pathetic way. Someone sticking a needle in your arm and you going to sleep - like a sick animal.

I'm afraid the content of this thread and many peoples views on how she should die serve nothing other than to give her fans some sort of moral boost.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Michael,

Was it not you who started this thread?

You call them depraved but would wish them a peaceful death, free of pain and sufferring?  Sorry don't follow, nor buy that....

dileas

tess

What part don't you get?

Criminals inflict pain and suffering on others.  The state doesn't have sanction to do that. 

Torturing criminals just turns them into martyrs and sympathetic figures.  How is this not obvious?

What purpose does it serve to torture people to death?  No good purpose, and a whole lot of negatives attached to it.  I should have thought it obvious. Seriously, what part don't you understand?  Are you proposing in earnest that criminals deserve to be tortured?  If so, why?
 
Personally, I am more partial to Seppuku and the beliefs behind it.  Depending on the crime.  Giving them a choice to admit their shame, and take the appropriate action.  If they chose not to, then just something basic, cheap, and effective.  Anyone who does crimes like these people should not have the choice and just be executed.  (ie. Paul Bernardo, Ted Bundy, Manson, Jeffery Dahmer, Albert Fish, etc. could list hundreds like them)  They should not want to live if they had any honour.  So your just doing what they won't do, because they have no honour.  Beheading, hanging, drowning, burning, doesn't matter since I see the point as to get rid of them, rather than keeping them around till they die of old age, have a second chance at life, or giving them a chance to re-commit.  If they want something more painless, let them pay $$ for it.

Rehabilitation, I don't believe in.  They can change, but should they get a second chance at life when their victims don't?  Where's the justice in that?

Robert

In case any don't know,
Link to Suppuku  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku
Link to Jeffery Dahmer  http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/dahmer/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffery_dahmer
Link to Albert Fish  http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/fish/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish

In case any ones interested, here's a Crime Library, we had to use it in College (Police Foundations)
http://www.crimelibrary.com/
 
I'm inclined to agree with R0B on 1st degree murder, multiple second degree counts, and mentally dangerous rapists and murders (the rabid dog thing).  Treason seems worth it as well due to the very serious implications it carries.  Of course, capital punishment must also be a case-by-case thing; each case has unique circumstances which provide reasons to reduce or increase punishment (ie: what to do with guys who torture but not kill their rape victims?)

I don't think rape deserves capital punishment - my understanding of it and the principle of lex talionis (which I believe is a morally justified principle) doesn't seem to justify it.  48th Highlander brings up an interesting point with the real subjectivity of ages.  If one was to use capital punishment on a person who specifically targets children, you would run into problems in trying to sort this out.  We point to age to underline the increased danger and psychopathy that an offender may have, but it doesn't always work this way as age may be an irrelevant coincidence in the case.  Do we put a rapist to death for raping a 15 year old girl when you consider that most 15 year old girls look like 21 year olds with the way they dress these days?  I highly doubt that alot of rapists consider age when they commit the offence.  A sharp dividing line on age is useless in determining the nature of the offence.  It's easy to use the serial rapists/murders as examples - but what about a drunken guy who doesn't take no for an answer?  Clearly that moment of extremely poor judgement doesn't warrant the noose.  Infact, I don't even think "rape" exists anymore - there are varying degrees of sexual assault, no?

As for the guys who specifically go for the young ones (say - 12 and under) and have reams of pictures and what not to show for it - the pedophiles and what not; I can think of interesting things for them on the Infanteer Gulag; save the death penalty for the cases where it truly serves lex talionis.

...of course, a society of citizens properly armed and mentally prepared to undertake the responsibility of defending themselves can save us from having to argue over what to do with this trash.  ^-^
 
Geez Ex-Dragoon, you are on a roll today.  :)

I'm prone to hanging.  Michael is right; we do nothing by violating our own decency and torturing guys.  However, the chair or injection seems to clean and sterile.  Something about the gallows seems to make a public statement and acts as a symbol of the ultimate form of retributive justice.  I say make it public as well; Canadian should be able to see justice carried out (and know what is being done on their behalf).
 
Its like everyone got excited when they heard that teen pregnancy was down by around 23% a couple of years back.  Great until you find out its because more girls are giving oral and anal.  GULP!!  Watch yer girls, daddies!

I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying you'd rather your teenage daughter have an unwanted pregnancy than GULP! engage in oral sex? Are you aware that there are methods of birth control other than oral or anal sex available?

Seems like YOU'RE the one who's twisting statistics here.....or was that your point all along?
 
Just posted something on this topic on another thread.  I agree with it for certain crimes like Murder, Rape, Child Molestors, Pedophilia, etc.

As for DNA proving their innocence later on.  It would be a shame, and their name should be cleared, but the penalty would of been carried out with all the information and evidence available at the time.  I'm sure it wouldn't of been carried out if it was based on circumstantial evidence, or not absolutely sure at the time.  It would have to be concrete evidence at the time, like life sentence's.

Robert
 
Nah - justice is as much about how it is carried out as in what is carried out.  If we don't take responsibility for physically executing a condemned man, then how can we morally pronounce the sentance upon him?
 
Ghost778 said:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37646.0.html

That stat is 30'000. Some sources have said it could be as much as 4 of 5 times that number. (of civilian deaths)

My point is that it's acceptable to kill "innocent" civilians while were targeting terrorists and insurgents BUT we can't sentence a mass murderer to death because of the tiny chance that he or she might be innocent? Regardless of the amount of evidence including DNA and video tapes of yes, them killing someone?

If were willing to accept civilian deaths of the people in countries we are trying to liberate and free, why can't we accept civilian deaths here at home?

I never said it was acceptable to kill civilians.... but it does happen. I'm pretty sure that efforts are made to avoid the mass killing of civilians.

But you are comparing apples and oranges; the intentional execution of a criminal, and the accidental death of a civilian in a warzone are completely different worlds...
 
I belive that it should be brought back. But...Its not the only change we need in Canada to the justice system.
 
Infanteer said:
I'm prone to hanging.   Michael is right; we do nothing by violating our own decency and torturing guys.   However, the chair or injection seems to clean and sterile.   Something about the gallows seems to make a public statement and acts as a symbol of the ultimate form of retributive justice.   I say make it public as well; Canadian should be able to see justice carried out (and know what is being done on their behalf).

My thoughts exactly.
 
I totaly support bringing back the death penalty. But lets be honest here if it ever were to come back the only method that would be used is lethal injection. It is considered humane. In my own view I dont really think so and I would rather be shot but never the less that is the norm these days. I dont think any states still use the electric chair and im almost 100% sure none still use hanging. when was the last time you heard of someone being senteced to hang?
 
sry to double post here but does anyone know what the US military policy is on executions?? like are they aloud to sentece someone to death?? Enemy spys, terrorists etc can they be executed on military authority alone?
 
Facts and Figures

Total Death Row Inmates: 8 (as of 4/29/05) RACE Black - 6
White - 1
Asian - 1 



GENDER Male - 8
United States Military Death Row Roster
1. Kenneth Parker (B)
2. Wade L. Walker (B)
3. Jessie Quintanilla (A)
4. James T. Murphy (B)*
5. Ronald Gray (B)
6. Dwight J. Loving (B)
7. William Kreutzer (W)*
8. Hasan Akbar (B) 
*Awaiting re-trial or re-sentencing. (Source: NAACP Legal Defense Fund)


Number of Executions
135 people have been executed by the Army since 1916 (Source: National Law Journal, 4/5/99)
Date of last military execution
On April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder. (R. Serrano, "Last Soldier to Die at Levenworth Hanged in an April Storm," Los Angeles Times, 7/12/94).
Minimum Age to Receive the Death Penalty
18 years
Death Row Location
U.S. Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
Method of Execution
Lethal Injection
Date the Death Penalty Was Reenacted after Furman
In 1983, the Armed Forces Court of Appeals held in U.S. v. Matthews, 16 M.J. 354, that military capital sentencing procedures were unconstitutional for failing to require a finding of individualized aggravating circumstances. In 1984, the death penalty was reinstated when President Ronald Reagan signed an executive order adopting detailed rules for capital courts-martial. Among the rules was a list of 11 aggravating factors that qualify defendants for death sentences.
Life Without Parole
A recent amendment to the Uniform Code of Military Justice offers a new alternative to the death penalty. For crimes that occurred on or after November 17, 1997, a sentence of life without the possibility of parole is now possible. Prior to this legislation, those servicemembers serving a life sentence would be eligible for parole after serving 10 years.
Clemency Process
The President has the power to commute a death sentence and no servicemember can be executed unless the President personally confirms the death penalty.
Capital Offenses
The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides the death penalty as a possible punishment for 15 offenses, many of which must occur during a time of war. All 7 men on the military's death row were convicted of premeditated murder or felony murder.
Who Decides Sentence
In a military capital case, the convening authority -- a high ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to a court martial -- decides if the death penalty will be sought. Once decided, the convening authority picks those servicemembers who will serve as panel members/jurors. One requirement for the panel is that if the accused so chooses, at least 1/3 of the panel must consist of enlisted personnel.
The only other requirement of a panel is that it consist of at least five members. Therefore, the number of panelists in a military death penalty case can vary from case to case. Although no state provides for a panel of less than 12 jurors in a capital case, military appellate courts have rejected challenges to capital court-martialed panels with fewer than 12 members. (see, e.g., United States v. Curtins, 32 M.J. 252 (C.M.A.), cert denied, 502 U.S. 952 (1991)).
(Unless otherwise noted, source: D. Sullivan, "A Matter of Life and Death: Examining the Military Death Penalty's Fairness," The Federal Lawyer, June 1998)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overview

An excerpt from:

"A Matter of Life and Death: Examining the Military
Death Penalty's Fairness" by Dwight Sullivan (The Federal Lawyer, June 1998) (reprinted with permssion of author)

Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 15 offenses can be punishable by death, though many of these crimes -- such as desertion or disobeying a superior commissioned officer's orders -- carry the death penalty only in time of war.
The "convening authority" -- a high-ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to trial -- chooses whether the government will seek a death sentence. If the case is referred capitally, the defendant cannot choose a bench [judge only] trial; rather, the case must be tried before a panel of at least five military members. The Uniform Code of Military Justice also precludes the defendant in a capital case from pleading guilty. Thus, every military death penalty case is resolved by trial before a panel of servicemembers.

A death penalty will be imposed only if the panel members reach unanimous agreement on four separate points. First, a military defendant cannot be sentenced to death absent a unanimous conviction of a death-eligible offense.... If the panel returns a unanimous conviction, the case then enters the sentencing phase.... The case's outcome will depend upon the [panel] members' resolution of three issues. First, they must determine whether the government has proven a specified aggravating factor beyond a reasonable doubt.... Most of these aggravating factors -- such as killing more than one person or being the triggerman in a felony murder -- are similar to those found in civilian capital punishment schemes. Other factors -- such as committing an offense with the intent to avoid hazardous duty or knowingly endangering a mission -- are unique to the military.


[The panel] must then weigh all of the aggravating evidence in the case against any evidence in extenuation and mitigation. A death penalty may not be imposed unless the members unanimously conclude that the aggravating circumstances substantially outweigh the mitigating circumstances.
Finally, even if every member agrees upon the existence of an aggravating factor and concludes that the evidence in aggravation outweighs the extenuating and mitigating evidence, any member is still free to choose a sentence other than death. Thus, members must unanimously conclude that death is an appropriate sentence.
When a death sentence is imposed, the record is initially reviewed by the convening authority, who has the power to reduce sentences and to set aside guilty findings.... The convening authority can reduce the sentence, but cannot increase it. And this review is no mere rubberstamp. Several years ago, a Marine Corps general commuted an adjudged death sentence to imprisonment for life. If the convening authority approves the death sentence, the condemned servicemember will be moved to military death row....
The record of trial then goes before one of the military justice system's four intermediate appellate courts: the Army, Navy-Marine Corps, Air Force, or Coast Guard Court of Criminal Appeals.... If the Court of Criminal Appeals affirms a death sentence, the case then goes before the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, as the Court of Military Appeals was renamed in 1994. The Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces is a five-member Article 1 court that sits atop the military justice system. Its judges are civilians appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate to serve 15-year terms.
[If the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces affirms the sentence], the case is eligible for Supreme Court review. The Supreme Court's certiorari jurisdiction over military justice cases... was enacted in 1983.... When the Supreme Court affirms [the sentence] or denies certiorari in a military capital case, the death sentence is then reviewed by the executive branch. If the President approves the death sentence, the condemned servicemember can seek habeas relief from the Article III judiciary. If the habeas petition is ultimately denied, the condemned servicemember will be led from death row down a flight of stairs to the USDB's death chamber. There he will be strapped to a gurney and executed by lethal injection.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Racial Disparity

There is racial disparity on the military's death row. Of those on the military death row today, five are African-American, one is a Pacific Islander, and only one is Caucasian. Whereas nationwide, about half of the 3,600 death row inmates are members of a minority, the military has an 86 percent minority death row population.
According to Dwight Sullivan (see above), "While the number of servicemembers under death sentence is fairly small, the racial disparity in military death penalty cases has been distressingly persistent. During World War II, African-Americans accounted for less than 10 percent of the Army. Yet, of the 70 soldiers executed in Europe during the war, 55 [79%] were African-American. After President Truman ordered an end to the armed forces' segregation in 1948, this racial disparity actually increased. The military carried out 12 executions from 1954 until the most recent one in 1961. Eleven of the 12 executed servicemembers were African-American."
"The death sentences adjudged since 1961 have continued to fall disproportionately on minority servicemembers. In 1983, when the Court of Military Appeals issued its Matthews opinion invalidating the military death penalty, seven servicemembers were on death row. Five were African-American, one was Latino, and one was Caucasian."
In addition to the racial disparity among death row inmates, there is also racial disparity among victims. Each time an African American has been sent to the military's death row, the case has involved a white victim. (R. Serrano, "A Grim Life on Military Death Row," Los Angeles Times, 7/12/94).
For more information about racial disparities, see DPIC's Race and the Death Penalty page.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

News and Developments (Prior to 2005)



Military Death Sentence Vacated
An Army Court of Criminal Appeals has vacated the death sentence of William Kreutzer, a Fort Bragg soldier who was sent to the military's death row for killing a fellow soldier and wounding others in 1995. The Court cited a number of grounds for the ruling that opens the door for rehearings on some charges and the sentence. For example, Kreutzer's attorneys failed to adequately explain the significance of their client's mental health problems for the panel that determined his guilt and sentence. In the ruling, Col. James S. Currie noted, "Appellant's trial can be summed up in one sentence: Three defense counsel who lacked the ability and experience to defend this capital case were further hampered by the military judge's erroneous decision to deny them necessary expert assistance, thereby rendering the contested findings and the sentence unreliable." Court documents revealed that Kreutzer had considered suicide at age 16 and "fantasized out loud" about killing fellow soldiers after they teased him and played practical jokes on him. The Appeals Court criticized the trial judge for refusing to grant a defense request for a "mitigation specialist," who could explain how Kreutzer's mental health problems contributed to his actions. See Military Death Penalty. See also Representation.

Pentagon List Gives Names of 169 Military Members Who Were Executed
A list containing the names of 169 members of the U.S. military who were executed between 1942 and 1961 was recently discovered at the Pentagon. The list also contains a few dozen additional cases where persons were sentenced to death, but not executed, and the names of 7 German prisoners of war who were executed. The 1961 execution of Pvt. John Bennett, who was hung after convictions for rape and attempted murder, was the military's last execution. The ledger also includes the name of Pvt. Eddie Slovik, who is the only member of the U.S. military to be executed for desertion since the Civil War. The list was discovered by accident by Pentagon employees and was made public as the military prepares to try accused terrorists currently held at the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The death penalty is a possible sentence in such military tribunals. (Associated Press, December 12, 2003)


- http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=180&scid=32
 
Whatever method it used, it should be done between periods and televised during Hockey Night in Canada.
 
The U.S. Military does not forbid the execution of the mentally retarded or juvenile offenders, though its admission policies make such executions very unlikely. The Military does have a sentence of life without parole.
Current Method - Lethal injection

- http://teacher.deathpenaltyinfo.msu.edu/c/states/stats/usmilitary.htm
 
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