The General Hillier Years. The Merged Superthread
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The two articles below are mainly why I am unhappy anout the selection to Rick Hillier for CDS.
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_news/news_issues_e.asp?category=2&title=13
this is the statement:
Lt Gen Rick Hillier, tried to persuade the senior decision-makers that the capital programme should focus on the army, and that Canada would have little need in the future for a 'blue water' navy or 'blue skies' air force. His angry colleagues rebutted his arguments.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20031029/stryker_vehicles_army_031030/Canada?s_name=&no_ads=
If his view has changed then all the better but I am not expecting them to. I don't think there is anything wrong with the wanting of fair treatment.
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_news/news_issues_e.asp?category=2&title=13
this is the statement:
Lt Gen Rick Hillier, tried to persuade the senior decision-makers that the capital programme should focus on the army, and that Canada would have little need in the future for a 'blue water' navy or 'blue skies' air force. His angry colleagues rebutted his arguments.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20031029/stryker_vehicles_army_031030/Canada?s_name=&no_ads=
If his view has changed then all the better but I am not expecting them to. I don't think there is anything wrong with the wanting of fair treatment.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Symchyshyn said:
It has usually rotated between the three Services in a set order. However, since Somalia, there has been some Political manipulation.
GW
Lance Wiebe
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I know Rick reasonably well. I had him as a troop leader when he first joined, and later as my CO. A very driven man, much more driven than the relaxed air he has perfected in front of others. And he does have a vision for our forces. Unfortunately, his vision is not shared by many, actually, are most likely not supported by very many at all.
Rick's vision is not to have a stand-alone army, navy or air force. It is his belief that we can never have an independant force go any where without coalition partners. Therefore, it is up to us to develop niche roles to support coalition members, and keep budget costs down. In this vision, we will never have a need to operate under our own command, we will operate as sub-units of other countries commands. So, no to tanks and SP arty, no to any kind of hybrid carrier, and most likely no to any kind of new fighter aircraft. Most likely no to any kind of area air defense as well, whether it be navy or army.
At least, this is how I see his vision. Not great news for those that want Canada to operate freely, but it will be good news for the politicians, I think.
Rick's vision is not to have a stand-alone army, navy or air force. It is his belief that we can never have an independant force go any where without coalition partners. Therefore, it is up to us to develop niche roles to support coalition members, and keep budget costs down. In this vision, we will never have a need to operate under our own command, we will operate as sub-units of other countries commands. So, no to tanks and SP arty, no to any kind of hybrid carrier, and most likely no to any kind of new fighter aircraft. Most likely no to any kind of area air defense as well, whether it be navy or army.
At least, this is how I see his vision. Not great news for those that want Canada to operate freely, but it will be good news for the politicians, I think.
Arctic Acorn
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I was recently able to attend a briefing on the Army transformation, and thats exactly the underlying concept, Mr. Wiebe.
I did find it interesting that there is a plan to phase out our air defence assets, on the rationale that in coalition ops the first thing to happen is establishment of air supremacy. I heard a lot groaning when the Major presenting announced it, though...
:dontpanic:
J.M.
I did find it interesting that there is a plan to phase out our air defence assets, on the rationale that in coalition ops the first thing to happen is establishment of air supremacy. I heard a lot groaning when the Major presenting announced it, though...
:dontpanic:
J.M.
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Personally I have high hopes for General Hillier. I too know him personally from his days as the CO of the Dragoons.
Here is a guy who as the CLS turned up on very hot Saturday in June of 03 to be the reviewing officer for a corps of 30 Cadets.
As for him being Army centric I say it's about time. Take a look at the majority of troops deployed in the CF and tell me what you see. There's a whole lot of Cadpat out there.
The Army has been cut to the bone in the last little while in spite of the fact that they do a majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to deployments. Sorry Navy types, I know that you too are hurting but numerically you are second and the air force barely even registers. Of the three services the Army has been neglected the most, cut the most and deployed the most.
George, I read that article that you refered to and I too was shocked by some of the things Rick said but I'm willing to bet that the decision to purchase the MGS was NOT militarily driven and is being rammed down our throats by politicians who think the army should be relagated to the constabulary/peacekeeper role. In short I'd bet that he had no choice but to support that one myopic decision in order to be able to get other consessions. Even at his level (perhaps especially at his level) you have to choose your battles.
Only time will tell, but I remain hopefull.
Here is a guy who as the CLS turned up on very hot Saturday in June of 03 to be the reviewing officer for a corps of 30 Cadets.
As for him being Army centric I say it's about time. Take a look at the majority of troops deployed in the CF and tell me what you see. There's a whole lot of Cadpat out there.
The Army has been cut to the bone in the last little while in spite of the fact that they do a majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to deployments. Sorry Navy types, I know that you too are hurting but numerically you are second and the air force barely even registers. Of the three services the Army has been neglected the most, cut the most and deployed the most.
George, I read that article that you refered to and I too was shocked by some of the things Rick said but I'm willing to bet that the decision to purchase the MGS was NOT militarily driven and is being rammed down our throats by politicians who think the army should be relagated to the constabulary/peacekeeper role. In short I'd bet that he had no choice but to support that one myopic decision in order to be able to get other consessions. Even at his level (perhaps especially at his level) you have to choose your battles.
Only time will tell, but I remain hopefull.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Reccesoldier said:George, I read that article that you refered to and I too was shocked by some of the things Rick said but I'm willing to bet that the decision to purchase the MGS was NOT militarily driven and is being rammed down our throats by politicians who think the army should be relagated to the constabulary/peacekeeper role. In short I'd bet that he had no choice but to support that one myopic decision in order to be able to get other consessions. Even at his level (perhaps especially at his level) you have to choose your battles.
Only time will tell, but I remain hopefull.
Of course he had to tow the "Party Line" or he would have been gone long ago, like so many other fine officers. He's a true politician now.
Sorry....If he couldn't fight for us before, I can't see him fighting much for us now. He will tow the Liberal line and try to paint a rosy picture. "Don't Worry-Be Happy" won't cut it. It is a prestigious and high paying job, and he has attained it.
GW
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I hope I am wrong and I hope he is fair and does not gut the Navy and Air Force like I expect him to. Just remember the Navy and Air Force will be after Army as the CDS and I have no doubt payback will occur if Lt Gen Hillier goes Army centric at the price of the Navy and Air Force.
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I have hope that Gen Hillier will fight for all the forces (course if he is army centric then I am not going to complain either), He has always presented himself as a fine soldier and an officer that cared about his troops and their future.
I am though a little concerned with any officer when they reach the storied heights of CDS as becoming just another Liberal sock puppet that spouts the party line trying to get a nice fat diplomatic job when they leave the post of CDS, time I guess will tell if he stays true to his roots and fights for us or just gives in to the pressure.
I am though a little concerned with any officer when they reach the storied heights of CDS as becoming just another Liberal sock puppet that spouts the party line trying to get a nice fat diplomatic job when they leave the post of CDS, time I guess will tell if he stays true to his roots and fights for us or just gives in to the pressure.
Lance Wiebe
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He was not towing any party line. Rick honestly believes the army does not require tanks, SP arty, attack helicopters, or air defense. Just as we will not require jet fighters or air defense destroyers. Rick believes that we will ALWAYS deploy as part of a coalition, and we will do "niche" tasks to enable the major coalition partners to conduct the main battles.
What I do like is that we will finally be given some direction, instead of drifting aimlessly, blown around by political winds.
Like it or not, I think that the endstate will be an Armed Forces with no major, expensive equipment, and lots of good, minor equipment. It should mean more aircraft (no fighters though!), more naval vessels and more boots on the ground. What I do not like is the fact that we will no longer be an first, second or even third rate force. We will simply be an "augmentation" force.
Hm.....something like the role the reserves have now, isn't it?
What I do like is that we will finally be given some direction, instead of drifting aimlessly, blown around by political winds.
Like it or not, I think that the endstate will be an Armed Forces with no major, expensive equipment, and lots of good, minor equipment. It should mean more aircraft (no fighters though!), more naval vessels and more boots on the ground. What I do not like is the fact that we will no longer be an first, second or even third rate force. We will simply be an "augmentation" force.
Hm.....something like the role the reserves have now, isn't it?
J
jmackenzie_15
Guest
I for the most part, agree and support alot of the things Hillier says, but I think attack helicopters and fighter aircraft are one of the best ways to support ground troops.Attack helicopters would be excellent cover for patrols in urban setting.They can see alot of things happening on the ground, and can assist with a heck of a lot of firepower if it is needed.Even if we didnt have tanks and the enemy did, the helicopters could still take them down, or even the fighter aircraft really.Air superiority is a must have if you're going to try and win a war, and id rather not just decide to 'leave it up to the americans' or something to that effect.
But then again, maybe Hilliers plan is to go this augmentation force route for now, because with the current budget and support, that would be far more effective than trying to maintain a larger more conventional force, and in the long run, we can slowly build upon our capabilities, rather than struggling to keep them all in check as we are today.Maybe he just wants to start from scratch again... reorg reorg reorg!
But then again, maybe Hilliers plan is to go this augmentation force route for now, because with the current budget and support, that would be far more effective than trying to maintain a larger more conventional force, and in the long run, we can slowly build upon our capabilities, rather than struggling to keep them all in check as we are today.Maybe he just wants to start from scratch again... reorg reorg reorg!
M
my love my life
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I'd just like to add my opinion on LGen Hillier's appointment. I firmly believe that he is the right man for the job at the right time. Will he favour Army over Navy and Airforce? Time will tell, but from the Army family standpoint - I"m feeling a lot more positive about proper Army support now that he's in the chair.
I agree with Reccesoldier's comments - it is about time.. Gen Hillier is a fine soldier - as down to earth as they come and I don't think for a minute that he will forget what's important to all of us. You can dissect his comments until the cows come home but the bottom like is that none of us know what is going on behind the scenes and I have every confidence in him.
Do I question that he will not look out for the troops' best interests in favor of advancing his career? Not for a minute. And before you say you are just a military wife so what do you know - I have met Gen Hillier many times and frquently came into contact with him during my working career at CFB Petawawa. Cheers, Dianne
I agree with Reccesoldier's comments - it is about time.. Gen Hillier is a fine soldier - as down to earth as they come and I don't think for a minute that he will forget what's important to all of us. You can dissect his comments until the cows come home but the bottom like is that none of us know what is going on behind the scenes and I have every confidence in him.
Do I question that he will not look out for the troops' best interests in favor of advancing his career? Not for a minute. And before you say you are just a military wife so what do you know - I have met Gen Hillier many times and frquently came into contact with him during my working career at CFB Petawawa. Cheers, Dianne
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How he does his job is really a moot point. Being the CDS is strictly a POLITICAL promotion. If our liberal government thought he might be a "loose cannon" and start actually fighting for the things we need he would not be placed in that position! He will play ball with the government or he will find himself being forced out of that position.
If people don't think that's how it works in Canada I have some prime vacation real estate for sale in sunny Nunavut.
If people don't think that's how it works in Canada I have some prime vacation real estate for sale in sunny Nunavut.
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I again question whether this is good for the Army at this particular point in time. We are going through difficult process at this time and we require continuity. Has long range consideration and succession planning gone into this decision, or when his term is up, is the next general officer that"looks good" be picked by the gov't?.
I have no doubt about his abilities or vision, but is this the best choice for the Army/CF today? or waiting three yrs for him to take CDS be a better decision. His moving ahead over senior LGen (and potentially just as qualified) could cause roadblocks and dissension further up the road.
I have no doubt about his abilities or vision, but is this the best choice for the Army/CF today? or waiting three yrs for him to take CDS be a better decision. His moving ahead over senior LGen (and potentially just as qualified) could cause roadblocks and dissension further up the road.
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RCA said:
This depends on if he becomes just another yes man in the uniform or if he is able to carry out his vision of the land element, throughout the forces.
Yes the Air Force and Navy may feel a bit of a pinch, but i have to agree with some of the others in this thread when they say the army needs the men and the equipment for their deployment schedule.
When is the last time we sent CF18's on a combat mission? KOSOVO plus the JSF is what 20 yrs away from ever in our inventory. :dontpanic:
The navy just got its new choppers and new ships those new Multi role ships.
The army needs the manpower and the new equipment...
I just hope he reshapes the top of this structure and cuts down on the Flags so that we can streamline the forces and save money. Have people in command of just more then 3 freakin guys. Not every postion in Ottawa requires heavy brass.
Only time will tell
Unfortunatelywe will be the ones to carry the decisions good bad or ugly.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
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1) I have no respect for "whose turn is it" selection processes.
2) Did LGen Hillier state words to the effect of "If I were CDS, I would favour the army", or did he state from a position as the army's advocate that he believed the army should have primacy?
3) There will still be a VCDS, DCDS, and three service chiefs of staff at the "big table".
4) While I prefer to see the forces keep a hand in every warfighting capability, dropping into niche roles is a logical step in meeting the requirements-vs-resources shortfall - more of the capabilities we are repeatedly deploying; fewer of the capabilities we are not. Getting entirely out of the business of tanks, big guns, and air defence (land or sea) may be premature, though.
2) Did LGen Hillier state words to the effect of "If I were CDS, I would favour the army", or did he state from a position as the army's advocate that he believed the army should have primacy?
3) There will still be a VCDS, DCDS, and three service chiefs of staff at the "big table".
4) While I prefer to see the forces keep a hand in every warfighting capability, dropping into niche roles is a logical step in meeting the requirements-vs-resources shortfall - more of the capabilities we are repeatedly deploying; fewer of the capabilities we are not. Getting entirely out of the business of tanks, big guns, and air defence (land or sea) may be premature, though.
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Wizard of OZ said:
The last I checked, the Air Force flew choppers, not the Navy... As for Multi Role ships, are you talking about the CPF's that are close to 15 years old.
At the end of the day, all 3 services require various equipment to be procured to replace older models of what ever. As for personnel, I do agree that the Combat Arms requires a lot of recruits, but so does the Navy.
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This topic is getting a bit out of hand. A number of you have put words into LGen Hillier's mouth as if you were part of his staff or spoke for him. I'm also detecting a mean streak of "get your hands off of my element's toys" which I thought that we had been doing a pretty good job of beating down on this forum lately.
IMHO, by all means advocate for your branch, element or favourite piece of equipment, but can we not all agree that:
1) no one here has all the answers, so it pays to listen more than speak, especially on issues that you don't have personal experience with. You might just learn something.
2) What is most important is the greater good of the Canadian Forces and by extension the defence of Canada. There may be many other ways of organizing ourselves to do business other than what we are doing right now. Ultimately, we are all on the same team.
At least give the General a chance to get into the job before sniping and counter-sniping...
IMHO, by all means advocate for your branch, element or favourite piece of equipment, but can we not all agree that:
1) no one here has all the answers, so it pays to listen more than speak, especially on issues that you don't have personal experience with. You might just learn something.
2) What is most important is the greater good of the Canadian Forces and by extension the defence of Canada. There may be many other ways of organizing ourselves to do business other than what we are doing right now. Ultimately, we are all on the same team.
At least give the General a chance to get into the job before sniping and counter-sniping...
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