The Great Gun Control Debate

[Fishbone Jones]

She would have been arrested, the baby taken into custody of Child Services. She'd be charged with, at minimum, manslaughter. Any guns on the property, and ammo, would be confiscated. She'd be charged for discharging a firearm, unsafe storage of firearms, unsafe storage of ammunition, charges of dangerous to the public safety, reckless endangerment and whatever else the Crown could possibly think of. They maximize the amount of charges to use as plea bargain chips down the line. If it was Ontario, the Attorney General would likely seize all property and assets, as he has done in previous cases. This prevents her from using assets to pay for legal fees. She would be hauled through the legal system fighting and paying every inch of the way. Thousands and thousands of dollars. She'd, in all likelyhood, eventually get off. She'd have no recourse to recoup her property or finances. She'd face a lifetime weapons ban. The legal system, in all likelyhood, would also allow the family of the dead attacker to sue her.

If anyone thinks I'm being alarmist or fantasizing, there are plenty of cases on the books and some currently in process, that follow this template.

In Canada generally, and Ontario especially, the AG and police do not want you to fight back. Their expectation and advice is to call 911, roll up in the fetal position and wait for the police to react and respond.

Remember kiddies, 'When seconds count, the police are only minutes away'

None of this is meant to denigrate the fine job our frontline police do. They have a tough, demanding and thankless job. It's the bureaucracy that is at fault.

The motto shouldn't be 'To Serve and Protect' but to 'Serve and Investigate'

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The link from Infanteer is a Canadianized & santized version from CTV.

Read this one, from Good Morning America, where she was on the line with 911 for 21 minutes!!!!

http://gma.yahoo.com/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html

Ref: What I said above about 'When seconds count...........

Compare the above with a typical Canadian case of home invasion. In this case, in Toronto, it took 18 minutes for LEO to respond and in typical, polite Canadian fashion, they stood outside, knocked and waited for an answer. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.thestar.com/mobile/news/article/962101--911-call-recorded-attack-as-woman-sexually-assaulted-strangled

At least, in this case the perp was arrested for a change.


Canada needs a Castle Law, mandated Federally.

 

[Infanteer]

Canada needs a Castle Law, mandated Federally.

Yes. 

 

[ballz]

If anyone thinks I'm being alarmist or fantasizing

It sounds right on the mark to me... it would be 100% about charging her and "letting the legal process unfold," as opposed to using a bit of a discretion and common sense justice.

 

[Occam]

I'm mentioning this only because the case got brought up.  While Oklahoma has Castle Law, they haven't got everything right.  The other scumbag who was trying to break into the home, and was subsequently charged with first-degree murder, has been granted bail on a $50,000 bond.  ???

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It sounds right on the mark to me... it would be 100% about charging her and "letting the legal process unfold," as opposed to using a bit of a discretion and common sense justice.

Less about 'letting the legal process unfold' and more about unjustly dragging her through the system and pilloring her finacially and socially for the rest of her life just to stroke the egos of the liberal Crown Attorneys and Judges, whereby making people second guess themselves when faced with similar situations.

The Crown and high ranking Law Enforecment don't want you to take care of yourself. They want you scared and under their control. They'd rather you get injured or killed than to stand up and fight for your family, property and rights like a free person.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm mentioning this only because the case got brought up.  While Oklahoma has Castle Law, they haven't got everything right.  The other scumbag who was trying to break into the home, and was subsequently charged with first-degree murder, has been granted bail on a $50,000 bond.  ???

It's still worlds away from the archaic laws and systems we have here.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... from Canada ....

A Winnipeg woman somehow survived being shot through the eye in a New Year's Eve attack that claimed the life of her friend.

Justice sources say it was nothing short of a miracle the 30-year-old woman didn't become the city's 40th homicide victim of 2011. Police and paramedics arrived inside the Selkirk Avenue home in the early hours of Dec. 31 to find the woman calmly sitting in a chair.

"It was like she was oblivious to what had happened. She didn't want any treatment until after she finished her beer," a source told the Free Press. The woman was severely impaired, either by drugs or alcohol or both, and seemed to be showing no discomfort despite the obvious injury she suffered. There were as many as 10 other people in the home, also in various states of impairment.

"Its going to take a considerable amount of time to speak to those individuals," police spokeswoman Const. Natalie Aitken said last weekend.

The body of 46-year-old Michael Warren Sinclair was found inside the same room. He was pronounced dead at hospital ....

Winnipeg Free Press, 5 Jan 12

.... and the U.S.

A US woman who shot dead an intruder after asking the emergency services for permission will not face charges, but the man's alleged accomplice will.

Eighteen year-old widow Sarah McKinley was at home with her baby on New Year's Eve when 24 year-old Justin Martin broke in, armed with a knife.

Prosecutors in Blanchard, Oklahoma say she shot Martin in self-defence.

Martin's alleged accomplice in the break-in, Dustin Stewart, has been charged with his murder.

In a tape released to the media of the emergency 911 call, Mrs McKinley can be heard asking the operator: "I've got two guns in my hand. Is it OK to shoot him if he comes in this door?"

The operator responds: "Well you have to do whatever you can to protect yourself. I can't tell you that you can do that, but you have to do what you have to do to protect your baby".

Oklahoma law allows deadly force to be used against intruders.

"Our initial review of the case doesn't indicate that she violated the law in any way," Oklahoma's assistant district attorney told The Oklahoman newspaper ....

BBC, 5 Jan 12

 

[Stoker]

Sadly we'll never have self defense laws like they have in the US because the average Canadian voter who live in the good areas will most likely never be subjected to a home invasion.
When this sort of stuff starts happening in the well to do areas that will quickly change. The police do not want the public to be armed or the right to self defense.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sadly we'll never have self defense laws like they have in the US because the average Canadian voter who live in the good areas will most likely never be subjected to a home invasion.
When this sort of stuff starts happening in the well to do areas that will quickly change.

You do know bad guys have cars too?  Most home invasions ARE in "good areas",....why would one steal down instead of up?

 

[Stoker]

You do know bad guys have cars too?  Most home invasions ARE in "good areas",....why would one steal down instead of up?

Sorry most of the home invasions that I heard of usually happens in bad areas, I stand corrected. Its too bad that more people won't stand up and DEMAND the right to defend themselves in their home. I know technically we have that right, however in practice it doesn't work.

 

[ballz]

I don't have any stats for it but I'm willing to bet that most robberies and stuff happen to people who are connected to the crook in some way, aka the crook knows there's some good stuff in their house and whatnot... except for armed robberies of convenience stores and such which usually do happen in crappy areas.

An example would be someone who my former roommate knows was wondering why their house keeps getting broken into while they are gone... well the dude's selling drugs out his house and has 20 or more people a day that he barely knows coming in and out... so it's no surprise every time he gets something new and shiny his house gets broken into...

I'd be interested in seeing the numbers on it, though... guess I've got something to do tonight anyway.

EDIT: And no, my former roommate was not a customer ;D

 

[Edward Campbell]

Sorry most of the home invasions that I heard of usually happens in bad areas, I stand corrected. Its too bad that more people won't stand up and DEMAND the right to defend themselves in their home. I know technically we have that right, however in practice it doesn't work.

The Ottawa police publish crime maps online. I just looked at the data for the past few weeks. The criminals may have cars but, in Ottawa anyway, most crimes (I excluded motor vehicle theft and hit & runs) ARE committed in poorer neighbourhoods. It is, in fact, a bit shocking to see how dense crimes are in some poor neighbourhoods and how scarce in richer ones.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Chief Stoker,...I didn't mean to sound demeaning but Ballz hit on something I should have pointed out,......the old style Italian mafia guy not flaunting thier wealth days are over so a lot of high-end criminals are the target of home invasions,...in nice areas.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The Ottawa police publish crime maps online. I just looked at the data for the past few weeks. The criminals may have cars but, in Ottawa anyway, most crimes (I excluded motor vehicle theft and hit & runs) ARE committed in poorer neighbourhoods. It is, in fact, a bit shocking to see how dense crimes are in some poor neighbourhoods and how scarce in richer ones.

Edward,.....unfortunately I don't discount politics being involved in these kind of stats,.... can't have "our" area looking bad can we?

But thats just my opinion of course.

 

[Stoker]

Chief Stoker,...I didn't mean to sound demeaning but Ballz hit on something I should have pointed out,......the old style Italian mafia guy not flaunting thier wealth days are over so a lot of high-end criminals are the target of home invasions,...in nice areas.

No problem, here in NS there have been quite a few home invasions. Usually they're connected to Drugs in one way or another though.

 

[Edward Campbell]

These data are based on police reports, Bruce, so I don't think they are trying to cover anything. Certainly, when crimes do occur in wealthy neigbourhoods there is a great hue and cry in the media - but we don't hear much when yet another home in a poor neighbourhood is "invaded" and the family terrorized for a few dollars or a cheap DVD player.

 

[ballz]

Some interesting numbers here.... although according to the report "home invasion" numbers are hard to quantify for a few various reasons.

http://publications.gc.ca/Collection/Statcan/85F0027X/85F0027XIE2002002.pdf

"Between 1995 and 2000, where the relationship between the victim and accused was
known, two-thirds (68%) of all accused were strangers, and a further 21% were casual
acquaintances of the victim. The remaining 11% involved family, friends and business
relationships."

I was talking about robberies, although I'll admit I wasn't even considering a difference between a robbery and a home invasion, so this statistic does come to a surprise to me and prove me out to lunch. I was thinking a home invasion was just a "robbery while you were home," and really not considering some other things.

If 68% of home invasions are committed by a complete stranger, then I'm out to lunch, although that goes by reported incidents and when a drug dealer gets robbed and cash, a TV, and a bunch of dope goes missing, he probably doesn't report it. Interesting anyway, I can't find anything on robberies at the moment.

 

[Infanteer]

Ballz,

I'm willing to bet the stats are accurate - home invaders are likely to rob someone they don't know.  Instances of assault/murder in the home are, I bet, the inverse - with at least 60% of those types of violent crimes having perpetrators known to their victims.

 

[ballz]

Ballz,

I'm willing to bet the stats are accurate - home invaders are likely to rob someone they don't know.  Instances of assault/murder in the home are, I bet, the inverse - with at least 60% of those types of violent crimes having perpetrators known to their victims.

Makes perfect sense to me... if you know the person is home, and they know who you are, why would you break in... you'd wait to rob them instead.

Assault/murder are definitely the inverse, I've seen plenty of stats to support that one. That's why I assumed home invasion would be the same... suppose I should have put more thought into that one, you know what they say... assuming makes an @$$ out of me