The Great Gun Control Debate

[Remius]

"I apologized, and expected to be let off with a warning, especially as I was wearing my flying suit"

So many things wrong with that line of thinking.

And the example used about swat going to the wrong house has nothing to do with excessive behaviour.  They were likely going into a high risk take down situation.  Normally involving guns or dangerous types.  They were probably using tactics appropriate for the situation.  the problem is that they went to the wrong house and things got out of control.  That's a failure in intel and proper recce.  Not excessive force.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm not exactly sure why this is in the gun control thread to be honest.
...

The gun control thread is the right place because this story is related to the hysteria that surrounds guns in the 21st century.

We, Canadians, have lost contact with our roots, with my childhood, with your grandparents who, like me, handled guns as a normal part of growing up on a farm. Now we see a man with a gun and we think crime rather than hunting or pest control.

Hysteria, amongst people like school teachers and social workers, leads then to jump to conclusions when a child says something innocent - they call the police who work with an excess of caution which leads them to appear overly intrusive.

Buy hysteria is the problem and there's no easy solution.

 

[Remius]

If this was joe blo with no criminal record I would agree.  But it is likely that the people involved knew of his criminal past and his daughter's comments likely rang some alarm bells.  If this was Dr. Johnson's daughter it likely wouldn't have turned out the same way.

When I see a man with a gun on the side of RR#2 I think hunter.  When I see a man walking through a city park with gun I'll question it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

CAS does its job and talks to the kids and wife.

His wife was also summoned to the station, and their children taken by Family and Children’s Services.

You really think CAS taking the children at this point is an appropriate response? Based off a 4 year old drawing a picture of her dad holding an evil black pistol/paint gun/water gun/ wii remote

 

[Remius]

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news/ontario/article/676210--schoolgirl-s-father-shocked-by-arrest-on-gun-charge

Read the article.  They were taken to CAS to be interviewed.  The way you say it makes it sound like they were put into foster care.  And it states, again, that they acted on other comments the child made.

CAS determined that nothing was wrong.  What's the big deal with that?

 

[ballz]

And it states, again, that they acted on other comments the child made.

A couple people seem to really think that point needs to be reinforced. Why? The "other comments" the child made simply identified the man in the picture as her dad. You make it sound like the other comments were "That's my dad's gat that he points at mommy when he gets drunk and yells at her."

As for "they knew about him and his criminal past," the principal had offered him a job working one-on-one with students, so they obviously seemed to think he way okay.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I tell my daughter that I can lift a house. Should I be drug tested for steroids if she tells kids at school that her daddy can lift a house?
Come on man, he shoots bad guys and monsters. 

CAS could have easily went to the house to speak with the mother and/or children at the house and not take them back to the ranch.

was a complaint from Forest Hills public school that “a firearm was in a residence and children had access to it. We had every concern, based on this information, that children were in danger.”

So "That's my daddy. He shoots bad guys" means that the father has a firearm in the residence and the children have physical access to it?

Bit of a stretch dude.

 

[Remius]

"From a public safety point of view, any child drawing a picture of guns and saying there’s guns in a home would warrant some further conversation with the parents and child,” said Alison Scott, executive director of Family and Children’s Services.

Waterloo Regional Police Insp. Kevin Thaler said there was a complaint from Forest Hills public school that “a firearm was in a residence and children had access to it. We had every concern, based on this information, that children were in danger.”

Ballz:  That up there is the police and CAS statement.  They didn't say they acted solely on the picture and what the FATHER told the press.

A few people in the know more than us have stated to read between the lines and others have mentioned that there is likely more to this.  Officials gave their statement without going into detail.  Likely because at the end of it the man didn't do anything wrong.  they had reason to believe something was up.  nothing was so rather than sully his reputation more by stating those reasons they just state the fact that they had reasonable grounds to investigate.

 

[Remius]

Grimaldus, you're taking what the newspaper and the father is saying as fact.  He's relaying his experience.  That does not mean that's what happened. 

The little girl might have also said that he takes it out all the time and keeps it under his bed.

As far as I know only the father has mentioned what she may have said.  officials are merely stating that they had reasons to believe there may have been a gun in the house.

I think some people are being quick to judge.

 

[NavyShooter]

I go to my kid's school's PTA/PTC meeting wearing my Glock hat with various "fun/gun" bumper stickers on the car....I get along well with the faculty, and am having one of the teachers visit the range with me tomorrow evening (Soccer Mom Social night this month is visiting the indoor range with me...I got accosted by a couple of the moms after the Soccer Dad Shooting night and asked "WHEN DO WE GET TO GO???)  So the fact that I'm a shooter, own firearms, and have them in my home is an open and accepted fact. 

Get involved, and participate.  If you're that "wierd guy who owns guns" then there will be trouble down the road somewhere.  If you're "Brad, from the PTC and the soccer dude" then there's a standard  PAUSE....2...3...wait a minute....I know him...let's just call him and see why his son is talking about guns....oh...you had him at the range firing your cannon again?  Oh, OK then...not a problem. 

Case in point.  My Daughter writes about when she comes to the range in her daily journal...her teacher was kind of confused about the references to a cannon until we talked at the PTC and I showed her the video that my oldest took of us firing the thing...now she understands and (I think half jokingly) asked when she could try it. 

I'm the normal guy down the street with 3 kids that play soccer, ride horses and shoot guns.  Yup.  It's NORMAL....and that's an idea that my kid's teachers are now used to. 

When it comes out of left field, from a kid that may have other "issues," or something that manifests suddenly then I can't blame them for their concern.  Was it handled right?  Dunno.  I'm sure all the facts are not public, so who are we to judge? 

There's 2 sides to every story, and the truth on this one no doubt lies somewhere in between. 

NS

 

[Jarnhamar]

They said they had to investigate to determine whether there was a gun in Sansone’s house that children had access to.

]“From a public safety point of view, any child drawing a picture of guns and saying there’s guns in a home would warrant some further conversation with the parents and child,”

a firearm was in a residence and children had access to it. We had every concern, based on this information, that children were in danger.”

How I'm reading it brother, a kid draws a picture with a gun and identifies that it's her father and he's shooting bad guys and monsters.

The school says it has to investigate to see IF a firearm is in the residence that the kid has access to - meaning they're not sure.

Next CAS says a kid drawing a gun and saying one is in the home warrants further conversation- keeping in mind I haven't read anywhere stating that the kid even said there was a gun IN the home. Another big if.

Next police are told a firearm IS in the residence and the child HAS access to it- so they went into action.  See the problem?  Went from if to possibly has to has.

You're right that the story seems to be one sided without the police really defending themselves. It still looks like they jumped the gun and turned a could possibly have to has. Keeping in mind a 4 year old probably doesn't know the difference between a pistol and a wii remote.  It'll be interesting to see if more details come out.

 

[Remius]

Someone mentioned something about the convictions we "know" about.  The man stated he was was a convicted burglar and was convicted of assault but nothing involving firearms.  Great, no firearms.  And no further info. Maybe he beat the living snot out of a former girfriend and maybe he robbed houses with a knife or baseball bat. Or maybe he beat up a father in front of his kids when he broke into house . This was 5 years ago.  did he serve time?  On probation?  All big ifs too but we are not privy to any of that and police won't divuldge that because he hasn't been charged.  So maybe that's why they cuffed him and took him downtown etc etc

I'm not saying that is the case.  But the CF has been in the same boat where all the facts are not known to the general public but the media twist it one way or the other.  I don't trust what the media says half the time.

Case in point was that editorial I mentioned earlier, the mounties would have been lambasted for the way that reporter perceived how he was treated.  Until they offered to release a video of it.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Someone mentioned something about the convictions we "know" about.  The man stated he was was a convicted burglar and was convicted of assault but nothing involving firearms.  Great, no firearms.  And no further info. Maybe he beat the living snot out of a former girfriend and maybe he robbed houses with a knife or baseball bat. Or maybe he beat up a father in front of his kids when he broke into house .

According to Sansone he was charged with assault and attempted burglary. Assault can mean anything from punching someone during a barroom fight to sexual assault to assault with a weapon.  Attempted burglary (breaking and entry) means that he was caught before he actually broke into some place. LEO's out there can correct me if I'm wrong.

A quick addition. Just because the guy was convicted of crimes, does not preclude the fact that he has been able to turn his life around and is now on the straight and narrow.

 

[larry Strong]

It was not my intention to start a shyte storm. When my phone told me there was a reply I expected a couple not 2 + pages worth. I posted it because it appeared to be an over reaction to a kid drawing a picture!! Guess I will just go back to playing Afghan Ops........

 

[Loachman]

"I apologized, and expected to be let off with a warning, especially as I was wearing my flying suit"

So many things wrong with that line of thinking.

To clarify, this was based upon experience (and not from just being pulled over), andnot a Lieberalesque sense of entitlement.

 

[Loachman]

He gets hauled in.  It does not seem like he was roughed up or anything, but questioned.  They probably handled him a bit differently because of his past.  CAS does its job and talks to the kids and wife.  Once everything is on the up and up they are all released and apologies are made.  Why is this such a big issue?  Due dilligence seems to have been followed even though it may seem a bit excessive. The whole story seems excessive yes, but people's indignation at what seems to have been proceduraly correct is as well.

Read the article at the link given earlier, again, if you did not when it was first posted:
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24/matt-gurney-police-arrest-and-stripsearch-innocent-man-after-child-doodles-a-gun/

While he had some problems in the past, he is now a "now a certified personal support worker". He apparently had a good enough reputation at the school to be "reportedly offered a job at the very same school where this bizarre story begins". This is probably a pretty good indicator that there were no significant suspicions of any real anomalies within his home, beyond a young girl's imagination and artistic preferences.

He was not just "questioned" by police. "On Wednesday, Sansone arrived at his children’s school to pick them up. He was asked to step inside and meet with the principal. In the principal’s office, Sansone was met by three Waterloo Regional Police officers and immediately arrested. He was taken to a nearby station, strip searched and locked in a cell. His wife was also summoned to the station, and their children taken by Family and Children’s Services. At no point were they told why this was happening. It was not until officers had told Sansone that he’d be held in custody overnight before a bail hearing in the morning that his lawyer was finally able to tell Sansone that he had been arrested for possession of a firearm.

"Proceduraly correct", you say? The "procedure" sucks.

This whole family has been unjustly and unjustifiably violated and traumatized in many ways and on many levels.

Should that little girl draw another picture of her father in a protective role and decide to depict the monsters, whom do you think they will resemble, and why?

Eveybody in this sad chain of events screwed up big time. I presume that the school, board, local CAS, and Waterloo Police have all learned valuable lessons. I doubt that this will happen again - there. It has happened elsewhere before, and it will happen elsewhere again, though, and for the same reasons: irrational fear of guns and stigmatization and demonization of people who own them - and even those who do not, if their children have normal but "wrong" imaginations.

"Why is this such a big issue?" Because it can happen to anybody, anytime, for no logical or valid reason, real harm to innocent people can result from it, and governments have encouraged such behaviour by their agents. Something like this could easily happen to you, unfortunately, but at least then your question will have been answered.

Go and read the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and think about why it exists.

 

[Edward Campbell]

From the aforementioned newspaper article: "A detective with the Waterloo Regional Police service apologized to Sansone, and explained that the entire sequence of events had been set in motion because a teacher at the school became alarmed when his four-year-old daughter drew a gun and said the picture was of her father. The teacher then notified Family Services, who decided that the police needed to be involved, telling the police that they had reason to believe that there was a gun in Sansone’s home that his children had access to." If we assume that the report is factually accurate - and I'm prepared to believe there are reporters with a pro-gun bias who are not above putting words in LEOs' moths - then I reiterate: hysteria amongst people for whom guns are strange, frightening, untouchable items. The thing went from a child's drawing to unsecured guns to which a child has access (yes, that was a sly dig at the reporter's less than good grammar) without any rational thought. I don't blame the police for acting with an abundance of caution nor for investigating every alleged offence - I blame a system that allows, even encourages kindergarten teachers and Family Service workers to jump to conclusions.

And yes, I know that four year olds report abuse and I guess, based on only the sketchiest of research, that something beween 30% and 60% of all reports of abuse are false ... but that's off topic.

 

[Loachman]

I do blame the police as well. They could have acted in a much calmer manner, and politely talked to him about this. "Immediate arrest" etcetera was not necessary.

More over-reactions:

Article no longer on website

False gun call traumatizes Winnipeg man CBC News - Last Updated: Dec 20, 2011 11:54 AM CST Comments: 67

Putting an anti-theft club on a steering wheel caused havoc for one Winnipeg family, when someone mistook the device for a shotgun and called police.

Andrew Lyons was in the city from Calgary, visiting his parents for the holidays, when he pulled up to the house on Harrow Street in the city's Fort Rouge neighbourhood on Dec. 17.  Not long after he went into the house, it was surrounded by flashing lights and members of the police tactical unit.

Lyons and his parents were then ordered to exit the home. "Being the eldest son to a father with terminal cancer, I was the first to exit and noted the numerous officers with weapons drawn as they instructed me to walk backwards towards them with my hands up," Lyons said. "I was then handcuffed and detained in a cruiser while the rest of my family was called out."


Article no longer on website

VANCOUVER SUN - SEPTEMBER 21, 2011
Toy gun leads to police takedown
By By Janet French and David Hutton, Postmedia News

SASKATOON - For Nancy Mercredi's family, it was the kind of urban welcome you might envision on a prime-time action show. Just a month after moving to Saskatoon from the remote northern Saskatchewan community of Fond du Lac, Nancy and Frederick Mercredi, three of their five kids and a teenage friend were on an unremarkable minivan trip to a mall Friday afternoon when they were surrounded by police officers who pointed guns at them. Within seconds, Mercredi was lying on the road being frisked at gunpoint as officers motioned the others out of the vehicle one by one. "I had no idea (what was going on)," Mercredi said. "I was thinking, 'What the hell? Did I cross the red light?'"

After searching the minivan and the occupants, an officer enlightened her: a motorist had reported someone in Mercredi's vehicle had pointed a gun at them. The gun the caller had seen was a toy dart gun that one of the kids had picked up for a couple of seconds, pointed toward the roof of the car and then put down.

"It traumatized them," she said. "For the whole evening, they were all quiet."

 

[Loachman]

Police used too much force
on mentally challenged man: Parents

Sam Cooper, Vancouver Province, April 7, 2010

http://www.bcpolicecomplaints.org/rcmp_brutality.html

Rodney Moffat (centre) was strolling near his brother's home
on March 29 when RCMP officers responded after a neighbour
had seen him playing with a large orange and silver plastic toy space gun and called 911. Moffat stands with his parents Karl and Eva Moffat.

Photo: Kim Saunders for the Vancouver Province.

The parents of a mentally challenged Quesnel man who was hurt by police in a toy gun takedown are afraid an unrepentant RCMP force will mistakenly shoot someone in a repeated scenario.

Rodney Moffat, a shy and soft-spoken 49-year-old, weighs about 90 pounds and lives with his parents in Quesnel.

He was strolling near his brother's trailer-park home on March 29, when RCMP officers swooped in with guns drawn and slammed him to the ground. The reason?

A neighbour saw him playing with a large orange and silver plastic toy space gun, and called 911, spurring police into a dramatic "takedown."

Rodney was walking with the bulky toy tucked in his waistband, when a cruiser pulled up and a female officer ordered him to put up his hands at gunpoint, while a male officer tackled him from behind, he says.

He suffered bruised ribs and pain in his wrists and lungs after the rough arrest, and is currently on painkillers.

"I bruise easily, I'm a very small person," Rodney said on Wednesday. "I don't even know how they got the cuffs around my little wrists."

Police say they took the gun call seriously as the "suspect" was walking near two schools, and they have not admitted any error in Rodney's arrest.

And that has enraged Rodney's father Karl, a retired police officer of 31 years with the Windsor Police Department.

"They still don't believe they used excessive force on a retarded boy," Karl Moffat said in an interview Wednesday.

Following the takedown, Rodney "was terrified, he was crying, he was as white as a ghost," Karl said. But it's thinking about what could have happened that "still haunts" Rodney's parents at night.

"What if he had turned around to run? They could have shot him in the back for no reason at all," Karl Moffat said.

The retired policeman said he's not interested in seeking damages from the RCMP, but he wants the force to acknowledge they used excessive force, apologize and ensure it doesn't happen again.

"With the police thinking they didn't do anything wrong, could there be a repeat performance? What are they going to do in water-gun season? They're going to run silly," Karl said. "Rodney is fortunate he didn't get shot [but] I'm concerned this could happen to someone else if this is there standard practice."

"They should say sorry and stop fibbing about it," Rodney Moffat said. "Before I thought police were supposed to protect us, not abuse us, like they did."

Rodney Moffat said he's glad that police returned his new toy gun, but his mother Eva had to demand "four times" before police turned it over.

"I just like playing with things like that - I like the sounds and the lights [of the space gun] when I'm watching Star Trek," he explained.

In an interview, Staff Sgt. Gary Clark-Marlow of the Quesnel RCMP suggested that the parents and local media are unfairly playing up the incident.

Asked whether an investigation into the arrest will be completed, or an apology offered to the Moffats, Clark-Marlow said no complaint has been filed, and from reading the initial incident report he sees no evidence that excessive force was used.

"The parents seem to be accusing us of reacting to a toy pistol," he said. "The big picture is ... we were about to lock down several hundred students. We had what we believed to be a credible threat of a person with a gun near a school that is in session."

Another articles regarding this case, archived on Radical Press: http://www.radicalpress.com/?cat=993

Rodney never recovered from this trauma, and subsequently committed suicide.

"Why is this such a big issue?"

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Reproduced under the usual caveats of the the Copyrights Act. An article from yesterday's Kitchner-Record on l'affaire Sansone.

Gun leading to dad’s arrest was a toy

Toy Stephanie Squires holds the toy gun her daughter appears to have used as inspiration for her school drawing that led to her dad's arrest and strip search by police.

Peter Lee/Record staff

KITCHENER — A plastic toy gun is to blame for the mayhem that saw a man arrested at his daughter’s school this week. It was found in the home of the Kitchener father of four after he was arrested over a drawing his daughter drew at the school on Wednesday. Jessie Sansone was strip-searched but not charged.

Sansone’s four-year-old daughter Neaveh had drawn a picture of a man holding a gun and said it was her daddy, triggering fears that the family home contained a weapon that was a threat to the children.

The school board, police and child welfare officials all say proper procedure was followed in the case.

“We did what we were supposed to do,” said Gregg Bereznick, the Waterloo Region District School Board’s superintendent of education.

Neaveh’s teacher at Forest Hill Public School was concerned by the drawing and called Family and Children’s Services, who assessed the case and called police. After being interviewed by police at the school, Sansone was handcuffed and taken to the police station in a cruiser.

There, Sansone said, he was forced to remove his clothes for a full strip search.

Sansone’s wife, Stephanie Squires, was also taken to the police station.

Three of the children were taken to Family and Children’s Services to be interviewed.

Based on interviews with the children and school staff, regional police believed there was a real gun in the family home and the children were in danger.

Investigators told Insp. Kevin Thaler they were convinced there was a threat based on the “jaw-dropping” accuracy of the description of a semi-automatic gun.

After more interviews, police determined the weapon was likely a toy gun. After Sansone was released, he allowed police to search his home.

A partly transparent, plastic gun was eventually located. Stephanie Squires said the gun shoots small plastic pellets that look like “tiny purple candy gum balls.” However, there were never any pellets in the home. The gun had been left behind by her brother, who used to live with the family.

Thaler said investigators never saw the drawing that sparked the investigation. Sansone has not seen it. Bereznick won’t acknowledge a drawing exists. Alison Scott, the executive director of Family and Children’s Services, says the agency may or may not have a copy of the child’s drawing.

On Friday, Sansone’s wife Stephanie Squires held the toy in her hand.

“You can see springs in it and everything,” said Squires, who is five months pregnant with the couple’s fifth child. “You can totally see it’s not a real gun.”

But Sansone says he is feeling real consequences of being arrested. The 26-year-old life issues counsellor for the Kitchener-based Sobriety Center was taken from the school in a police car.

“My family has been tarnished. My name has been tarnished,” Sansone said on Friday. “My children aren’t even going back to that school again.”

Sansone is scheduled to speak to 700 high school students at St. Benedict Catholic Secondary School in Cambridge next month on the issues of drugs, violence and anti-bullying.

Sansone says he got into some trouble with the law five years ago, and was convicted of assault and attempted burglary. But he’s put all that behind him. He never had any firearms-related charges.

After Wednesday’s events, he talked to a lawyer. He says he feels justified in going public to “exploit” this incident.

“Because I was exploited,” he said. “Every pedestrian who drove by that school and saw me being escorted and put in to the car, I want them to know what’s going on. Everybody from the principal to the crossing guard, I want them to know what happened.”

Sansone said the school principal, Steve Zack, called him to apologize for the incident. Zack could not be reached for comment on Friday.

Sansone says he is looking at moving his school-age children to nearby Trillium Public School.

On Friday Squires used the toy gun, which investigators left behind, to hammer some nails. She figures she’ll throw it away.

“It caused all this nonsense,” Squires said. “I don’t even want it in the house anymore.”

But getting rid of the gun doesn’t mean the case is closed.

“We’re still investigating this one,” Scott said.

jhicks@therecord.com

Article Link   Photo of toy gun at link.

I like the last statement by the CAS.