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"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

"How about go one step further and just give every soldier a cap badge and some money. They can buy what ever they feel they may need when launched into battle. That way time can be spent wondering if everyone bought kit that will work, whether they bought enough of it. Heck, we can just get more trucks and personnel to keep track of the buckles, and caliber of ammo that each individual section decided to use."

I don't recall anyone saying they'd bring their own wpns.  I believe the American system is they issue an intial issue and keep that issued stuff on the shelves (like us).  They also allow soldiers to buy from AUTHORIZED dealers.  I haven't heard of much of a problem with that system.
If the troops had the ability to use aftermarket kit during training then they would know what worked and what didn't.
There is also a vast amount of knowledge out there on which companies are good and which suck.
I don't believe the army should look after different buckles and whatever else, only what they issue intially.  I also think we all know that issued kit fails as well.
 
CFL said:
As long as we appear to seem uniform why does about wha I wear?
Contrary to popular belief, I say "uniform schmuniform".  Someone mentioned a parade where everyone looks the same.  Isn't that was DEUs are for? :D
You make an interesting suggestion in your other post re: "authorised" dealers.  Perhaps that is a solution for those who may, as you say, need to carry "more" (for whatever reason, such as a raid, long range dismounted recce patrol, whatever).  Maybe even in conjunction with the kit shop system (vice supply system), with the understanding that its your own to buy (much as the US rainjacket I bought and was allowed to wear back in the 80s and 90s: yeah, I'm *that* old), or maybe even costing "points" off of the new clothing system?

Of course, having said that, I don't think that our stuff is junk, but neither is it the best out there.  From my personal experience with some Germans in Kabul, I noted that I liked the idea of their modular vest system.  They weren't too fond of it, as they found it broke easily, and they liked our stuff.  Grass is greener?  I dunno.  Perhaps it is all perspective.  Perhaps they trialed a modular system when developing the TV and found that it failed too often?  I dunno.



My point throught
 
CFL - No we are not in a slanging match.  I just didn't want to start one.

Cheers.

PS I can see your point wrt arranging your personal kit.

However you have to know that as someone that damnear neutered himself going to ground carrying 4x20 rounds in C1 mags in his shirt pockets; spent 5 minutes trying to unbutton, extract full mag from said pocket, change mags, replace empty mag in shirt pocket, rebutton, restart firing while prone I have difficulty believing that your situation is materially worse than it used to was.

Not to mention the glories of dissolving velcro that resulted in massive unit expenditures of gun tape to prevent pouches, frogs, yokes and belts floating away in swamps, or the unauthorized acquisition and wear of mixed Canadian, American, Brit and the ever popular Rhodesian/South African web gear.

I think the nature of the beast is that no matter how good your kit somebody will always find an improvement - even yourself, I don't doubt that as you select your own kit and try it out you occasionally go back to the store and buy something new and different because your first selection turned up something  that didn't meet your requirements.

 
RecceDG said:
Logistics of CONSUMABLES is key.
Here's the important part - had the Panther been available in similar numbers as the Sherman, thus taking the logistics aspect out of the equation, we might very well have seen a different result.
Logistics of EVERYTHING is the key.
Now, with regards to the Panther, even with your point, the key thing I take from it is "had the panther been available in similar numbers as the Sherman"...well, that is logistics!  But even when faced with superior tanks, the Germans were able to defeat the French in 1940.  Even when faced with superior tanks in Russia, the Germans continually gave better than they got, right up to the end of the war.  The only tank that was a real match for the best that the Russians had was indeed the improved Panther (virtually identical in the three key elements: mobility, firepower, protection).  Though tanks like the Tiger and Tiger II were superior in firepower and protection, they lagged in mobility.  And if you take logistics out of the equation, we may as well argue whether plasma rifles in the 40 Watt range are better than phasers.
 
vonGarvin said:
Logistics of EVERYTHING is the key.
, we may as well argue whether plasma rifles in the 40 Watt range are better than phasers.

DUH

The phase modulars in the plama rifles pwn the flux capacitors in the standard hand phaser.

Although the upgrades in the 2.01 v phaser rifle is better than the hand phaser which
can't store the required power to properly use the new fire and forget targeting sytem!  ::)
 
Still, for permanence, and just plain vapourizing the target, nothing beats the traditional Klingon disruptor.  Not a finesse weapon, but permanent, anyway.  ;-)
 
Gunnar said:
Still, for permanence, and just plain vapourizing the target, nothing beats the traditional Klingon disruptor.  Not a finesse weapon, but permanent, anyway.  ;-)
Klingon disruptor?  Are you nuts?  They suck.  ROMULAN or nothing, baby! ;)
 
A solution that i have seen that I think would work just fine is to take all the pouches off the issued tacvest and replace with MOLLE then get some CADPAT pouches. CTS can still have the feeling that they designed a great vest i would Have the same look to it... CTS can keep their "daisy chain" for the yoke and smallpack and we would get a modular vest. If we cant officially do this i would like to see a quality aftermarket manufacturer (dropzone/ICE) produce some MOLLE front panels in CADPAT for the tacvest that would be approved for wear.

 
After talking with vonGarvin at work today, I had to keep reading this thread to see where I would jump in: now is as good a time as any, I guess.

I suppose when people are as passionate about something (such as their hatred of the TV) there has to be something behind it. I myself am a School weenie, and have only worn the TV while instructing courses here in Gagetown and to do ruckmarches. Other than getting the wrong size (typical, ain't it) I don't mind it (once I figure out where the optimal place for everything is), but I have never had to use it "in the shit". Having said that, I think it is leaps and bounds better than the webbing it replaces, and the LBV/LCV it replaced on operations (that I wore for 2 tours in Bosnia). My opinion is this: it fit's the 80% solution (as mentioned by somebody in regards to how trials work). Perhaps the Infantry Corps should look at developing something for themselves, separate from the TV, much the same that the Armour Corps has C8's for vehicle crews (yes, I know other arms (and the squirrels) carry them, but I am speaking in general terms).

So, rather than venting spleens here (though getting valuable feedback from people after the rant's have cooled down) approach the powers-that-be at the Infantry School (or Corps headquarters, which I assume is one and the same). MAYBE, something along the lines of an IOR (or at least high priority T&E process) could be done with current OTS gear (I don't follow the "Gear Whore" scene, so won't embarass myself by naming the "wrong" company), and have reps from ALL the battalions rather than whomever happens to end up always trialling the gear (if you know what I'm getting at.....), from the crusty career Cpl's on up, rather than just the aging MWO or CWO who's last operation was for his hip replacement after falling off his M548 in REFORGER '83  >:D. It needs to be done quickly, I would say, but efficiently (remembering to cover the 80% solution), because it always seems that once we pass the point of no return (picking one "winner" and then not turning back even after everyone realizes they backed the wrong horse (LSVW, TCCCS, old rain jacket (the one with detachable hood, and that was more effective (which didn't amount to much of an improvement) when worn inside out), new combat belt (which, BTW, can no doubt be used to mount a saddle on an elephant based on the length of it)), something better comes out, and we always seem to end up with "buyers regret".

Personally, I really like the idea of being able to buy things through authorized dealers, but that opens up a can of worms. Places like Edmonton and Valcartier would be laughing, but the more backwater bases (yes, I mean Gagetown) would be screwed (has anybody here ever tried to find decent kit - that has to be tried on, like boots - here? Yes the internet, eBay, etc is wonderful, but I am NOT going to buy a pair of boots or gloves (been there......) over the internet unless I can be sure that it is going to fit (a size 11.5 by Matterhorn isn't the same as 11.5 by Corcoran, etc, etc). And as for "authorized": who is going to be the approving authority??? CTS pers? Supply pers? Medical pers (for boots, etc)? RSM's??? Soldiers (in other words, people who vote with their wallets)? Wouldn't this just cry out for cronie-ism (you have to buy from retired RSM Bloggins' store..... or company). I heard a story (which I related in one of the "Mk III combat boots suck" posts) at one of the local outfitters (the only one, so do the math) that the Base RSM had say in what boots were authorized for LPO (when they ran out of MkIII's on base, I was authorized to LPO boots), and he had decreed that there would be no canvas sided boots allowed. Was this based on safety? Aesthetics? Ergonomics? I don't know if anybody truly knows (BTW, I bought the Model 1944 Corcorans (canvas sided) with money out of my own pocket, and don't regret a penny spent).

Anyway, I have to admit that we have come a loooonnnnngggg way from the bad old days, and yes, it has taken an inordinately lengthy period of time to get even what I consider the "basics" out to the troops, but I'm not sure what is accomplished by people "whining" in the media that "this sucks, and that sucks, and I HAD to buy a civvie GPS because they wouldn't give me one [so says the Pte rifleman, who doesn't really NEED one, but Joe Sixpack in Canmore doesn't know that, but writes his MP complaining about it anyway 'cause he feels sorry for the youngster, and causes a shitstorm at NDHQ for no real reason]". There is some truth to the complaints, but there is a much better means to get what one needs than to cry to the media (sorry Globe and Mail reporter....). It might not have the immediacy that we would all like, but it prevents knee jerk reactions made by politicians (or politicians in uniform) such as "buy the first chest-rig that the first soldier you see suggests!!" and then that lackey  bumps into, say, me, and I say "Go to Wheeler's, dude!!!" and then EVERYBODY will want to kill me. Or the dreaded "No chest rigs will be worn on this TF!!!!" because the TF commander (or the CLS) has egg on his face, and shit rolls down hill. Life is like chess: always be thinking more than one move ahead. I'm sure that more than a few blind eye's would have turned, but the glare of the media that this has brought will likely result in nothing good due to the pressures felt or forced by commanders.

Anyway, fight the good fight, and hopefully, someday, someway, everybody will be happy with the equipment we have (bloody unlikely, but one can dream, no!?!?)

Al

Editted for clarity
 
Kirkhill that's what a drop pouch is for.  So you don't need to fumble with getting your spent mags back in your pocket. ;D
As far as back water units buying kit. They have to know with the point system which gets the kit there in about 3 days.  If its the wrong size a means to send it back is provided.  Its not as if your doing with out either as you would have the intial issue that clothing stores sent you.
 
Okay - perhaps useless used originally was inflamitory.

I will know try to start a list of issues I had with the TV.

Mag Pouch placement
  With the GenIV (or v) PBA the vest sits very awkwardly and is not easy to access the rifle/carbine mags - I found to access them I had to keep them undone - as it was next to impossible to undo the fastex and flip the flap using flight gloves - addition the pouch is cut to hig so not enough of the mag is exposed for a decent grip - ensuring that you need to use a Magpul - and due to the tight construction the Magpul Ranger plate is the only one that really fits.  Add in it is only 4 mags...

Grenade Pouch -- does not fit the M67/C13 -
  MJP did a good video of attempting to use it, the pouch is too tight - requiring you to pull dramaticalyl on the grenades fuze to extract it from the pouch.  - plus with grenades in it - it makes the vest very awkward to use in the prone.

Small "Accessory" pouches
  Too small for a medkit of any use - seem to be placed as an afterthought

Utility Pouches
  They hang over the body quite awkwardly

MiniMag Light pouch
  Wont fit a SureFire light - and the Minimag is crap.

At the same time as the TV was undergoing design - a member from DHTC and a designer from PacSafety where roamign around looking at kit designs for Greenside ops - coming up with the Chest rig and Patrol Vest - vests that cost less than the TV - are more modular, and provide much more capacity.  Having used both, and knowing both designers I can say that while I still feel they leave a lot of room for improvement - they are miles ahead of the TV for Infantry usage.

IMHO a "next" gen system of the PV and CR could be done in MOLLE and issued to the Infantry units.


Some people (like me  ;)) will never be satified - I have spend a fair amount of money on custom sewing to my Paraclete RAV since I think the based design has some flaws. 



BTW - I had understood that a certain PPCLI Capt had done a POR on the TV...


 
CFL said:
As far as back water units buying kit. They have to know with the point system which gets the kit there in about 3 days.  If its the wrong size a means to send it back is provided. 
But that would also have to be part of any solution: perhaps some sort of sizing indicator and industrial standards with which the manufacturers would have to adhere?  Remember, it's not just about the kit: the delivery, EFFECTIVE delivery that would also have to part of any solution.
 
"Tell ya what, Big Red, you can take your old webbing.  Good on you.  "

Nah, I'll just use my CIRAS.

"Why don't SOF units use it? "

Because its a POS.

"They do a different (though similar) job to you and me. "

Our jobs are not even remotely similar.

"Hell, they have longer hair and Oakleys, does that mean we should use them? "

*Checks mirror*...Yes. ;D

"Man, this ain't no movie, this ain't Iraq, we are not JTF2,"

So what are the troops going to wear if they happen to find themselves in a theatre like Iraq?  Right now the guys in Afghan are wearing a poorly designed 'peackeeping' vest in an active warzone.

CTS should be disbanded. They are not listening to the troops. Going on 4 years of complaints and the TV hasn't changed.
 
Big Red said:
So what are the troops going to wear if they happen to find themselves in a theatre like Iraq?  Right now the guys in Afghan are wearing a poorly designed 'peackeeping' vest in an active warzone.
It wasn't designed for peacekeeping.  And we could "what if" this to death.
 
Now, with regards to the Panther, even with your point, the key thing I take from it is "had the panther been available in similar numbers as the Sherman"...well, that is logistics!  But even when faced with superior tanks, the Germans were able to defeat the French in 1940.  Even when faced with superior tanks in Russia, the Germans continually gave better than they got, right up to the end of the war.  The only tank that was a real match for the best that the Russians had was indeed the improved Panther (virtually identical in the three key elements: mobility, firepower, protection).  Though tanks like the Tiger and Tiger II were superior in firepower and protection, they lagged in mobility.  And if you take logistics out of the equation, we may as well argue whether plasma rifles in the 40 Watt range are better than phasers.

Oi.

Logistics - of the type you are talking about - was an issue in WW2 because German production capacity was limited, and while the Panther and Tiger were markedly superior in quality to anything else being fielded, they could not be produced in sufficient numbers to replace losses; never mind support a build-up of forces.

The Sherman and the T84, while inferior in quality to the German tanks (although with T34-85, that quality gap is pretty narrow) could be produced in large enough volumes that, even though they were taking higher losses than the Germans, losses were always made good and then some.

"The three best American generals were General Foods, General Motors, and General Electric".

So in this, we agree.

BUT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUITABILITY OF THE TAC VEST FOR OPERATIONS.

We are NOT in a situation where web gear production is limited, and where we are forced to choose between a substandard (but readily producible) version and a high quality (but limited availability) version. We CAN have both. We CAN have the analogue to having a fully developed Panther, available in quantity, in 1943.

If we choose to.

DG

 
:tank:

Is there a civilian organization that can speak up for our troops and their needs?  My boy is buying stuff because of the crap he is being issued.  Yes, as usual, the grunts get last pick.
 
The Six said:
:tank:

Is there a civilian organization that can speak up for our troops and their needs?  My boy is buying stuff because of the crap he is being issued.  Yes, as usual, the grunts get last pick.

No.

Troops are not permitted to publicly criticise the DND or it's policies. There are also laws against forming unions as they are classified as "mutinous" activities. I don't believe that there is a civilian organisation that represents troops, but you can be guaranteed that anyone caught talking to them would be "dealt with".
 
He didn't say "represent" the troops, as in actually involving currently serving members, although I can see how it might be interpreted as such. I think Espririt De Corps magazine would be along the lines of what he means.

What good would civillian organizations do as long as vonGarvin/Gordon O'Connor are the ones in charge?
 
Britney Spears said:
What good would civillian organizations do as long as vonGarvin/Gordon O'Connor are the ones in charge?

I wasn't aware that vonGarvin had been named CDS.  However, it has been a while since I checked the CANFORGENs.

 
RecceDG said:
The best solution is to ensure that the issue kit is of sufficient quality that there is no need to go to the aftermarket.
That sounds like the MND’s direction.

Did this thread really happen?  Does everyone in the CF fall into either a group that emotionally believe the clothing & eqpt pers are inept morons, or a group that emotionally believe the only people interested in improving on existing kit are doing it simply for LCF?

I now have pockets on my sleeves.  My CoC made this happen.  It seems there is room for improvements but that things can get better.
 
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