Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[PJOsborne]

AC, my pleasure. Last year, attendance was down partly because the word didn't get out; partly because those that did hear about it put it as a low priority; and partly because a lot of troops were away on TF (LWFA sent only 5 shooters, for example, all of them PRes). It's a great two weeks, and I hope there are more people in attendance this year.

 

[fletchsd]

Well, I can let you know that several PRes teams from LFCA will be going to the competition.  Our team is actually looking forward to putting our "gunfighter" drills into good use at the competition.  For the guys who have been in for awhile, its not instinctive to transition to the pistol for when encountering a C-7 stoppage.  We keep having to force ourselves to use the new drills.
I also agree with MG 34 that most of the competitions encourage poor drills.  We have kitted out our team in full deployment kit in order to "train like you fight". 
Although they may just be games, competition encourages the troops to take an interest in marksmanship and therefore we see an overall increase in our retention numbers and the moral of the regiment.
Instead of using civilian instructors teaching the very latest in combat pistol shooting, several members of our local police tac teams who are also in the regiment are a great source of information.  Its important to note that although we are no longer following the pam, we haven't run into any resistance to changing to this leading edge training because the results are so exceptional.

 

[PJOsborne]

Well, I can let you know that several PRes teams from LFCA will be going to the competition.  Our team is actually looking forward to putting our "gunfighter" drills into good use at the competition.  For the guys who have been in for awhile, its not instinctive to transition to the pistol for when encountering a C-7 stoppage.  We keep having to force ourselves to use the new drills.
I also agree with MG 34 that most of the competitions encourage poor drills.  We have kitted out our team in full deployment kit in suggestion to "train like you fight". 
Although they may just be games, competition encourages the troops to take an interest in marksmanship and therefore we see an overall increase in our retention numbers and the moral of the regiment.
Instead of using civilian instructors teaching the very latest in combat pistol shooting, several members of our local police tac teams who are also in the regiment are a great source of information.  Its important to note that although we are no longer following the pam, we haven't run into any resistance to changing to this leading edge training because the results are so exceptional.

That's very encouraging. LFCA had a great turnout from its PRes units. I understand that most of those units had fair warning and actually got range time before showing up at CFSAC. I hope the word gets passed out a little better this year, but so far I haven't seen anything official.

I had disagreements with some of the rules in the rulebook, things like "you will have your C7 magazines in their appropriate pockets.", "all shooters must carry a canteen + gasmask" etc. I successfully argued that my non-issue camelbak was an appropriate stand-in for a canteen. I was also carrying four of my 9mm magazines in my two left C7 mag pockets. The judges were less than pleased when they found this out, but i told them i had nowhere else to put them, since i wasn't issued any pistol magazine pouches. I also had to do a few matches with magazines in my cargo pockets. :

I tried to haggle with the officials about getting to use my vertical foregrip. I argued that even though yes, i had purchased it myself, it was practically identical to the issued vertical grip. I suggested that if they had any doubts, they could look at any number of photos from Afghanistan to see soldiers using the issued grip. I further pointed out that the RCMP's C8s had vertical grips, so where's the harm?
Their response was that "if it wasn't given to you with your rifle, you can't use it."

Will i still go back? you bet.

 

[Greymatters]

I had disagreements with some of tha rules in tha rulebook, things like "you will have your C7 magazines in their appropriate pockets.", "all shooters must carry a canteen + gasmask" etc. I successfully argued that my non-issue camelbak was an appropriate stand-in for a canteen. I was also carrying four of my 9mm magazines in my two left C7 mag pockets. tha judges were less than pleased when they found this out, but i told them i had nowhere else to put them, since i wasn't issued any hand shooty thing magazine pouches. I also had to do a few matches with magazines in my cargo pockets. :

The rules are there for a reason.  Its not to keep new shooters from showing off flashy kit, its to make sure all participants have the same advantages and disadvantages in kit and portability.  That way the true skill being tested is the shooting ability, not the quality of equipment...

A point you might also want to consider is that the judges at these competitions hate a smart-ass.  If you piss them off with too many challenges, and succeed in finding too many loopholes in the rules to exploit, they will find a way to rule against you in future decisions...

 

[geo]

Ayup.... I was at Connaught one year.... watched as one of my friends was disqualified on a snap-shoot (kneeling) and missed winning the Queen's medal by 1 point.

I also knew the judge that did the disqualification.... he was a bit of a dink but applied the rules .... to the letter of the law - and not common sense...

 

[TCBF]

- Match rules are previously published.  Requests for a change in rules can be made prior to the matches.  Participants who choose to compete do so knowing the rules.  If they disagree with those rules, the most sincere form of protest is to NOT shoot, and inform the competition organisers as to why.

- To protest a rule in effect at the start of a match one volunteered for is inane.

- Protesting an unsound application of a rule is another matter.

- Conclusion: If you don't like the rules - DON'T GO.

 

[OldSolduer]

I was employed at a 1CMBG SAC a number of years ago. In the rule book it stated that only issue kit for certain matches could be used. Some captain thought he was going to get away with wearing a Bianchi holster (black at that). We sought a clarification and the rule was enforced.
But that's besides the point. Let's at least attempt to train our troops to shoot the blasted thing rather than argue over what holster they should be issued with.

 

[medaid]

Well I guess I can never go to the SAC then... I'd be crazy since almost none of my shooting kit is issued. Having a POS holster doesn't show off or test your shooting skills, it tests your ability to strugle witha POS equipment and not only to draw it but to point it on target in time to pop off rounds. No pistol mag pouches, so where do they expect us to keep out pistol mags? In our hands? In our pockets? It's another silly thing that rears its ugly head with regards to kit and backwards thinking. In the US their in house comps have their members showing up with a variety of things. But the few things that remain the same are, rifle in either regular or carbine length so two seperate div. They have a variety of optics but are all pretty much the same and a side arm that's the issued M9. None of the shooters are wearing the exact same equipment or even has the same accesories, but the winner is a winner, whether he/she is using a vert grip or not it doesn't matter. It's how the individual shoots and how good at shooting that person is. What someone's wearing doesn't really effect how they shoot now does it?  It only facilitates either good skills or none existent ones.

 

[Greymatters]

Well I guess I can never go to the SAC then... I'd be crazy since almost none of my shooting kit is issued. Having a POS holster doesn't show off or test your shooting skills, it tests your ability to strugle witha POS equipment and not only to draw it but to point it on target in time to pop off rounds. No pistol mag pouches, so where do they expect us to keep out pistol mags? In our hands? In our pockets? It's another silly thing that rears its ugly head with regards to kit and backwards thinking. In the US their in house comps have their members showing up with a variety of things. But the few things that remain the same are, rifle in either regular or carbine length so two seperate div. They have a variety of optics but are all pretty much the same and a side arm that's the issued M9. None of the shooters are wearing the exact same equipment or even has the same accesories, but the winner is a winner, whether he/she is using a vert grip or not it doesn't matter. It's how the individual shoots and how good at shooting that person is. What someone's wearing doesn't really effect how they shoot now does it?  It only facilitates either good skills or none existent ones.

Again, the purpose of standardized kit is to demonstrate superior skill, not superior equipment, but yes, what you posted are all good examples that reinforce what I-6 said earlier - you cant compare shooting at the range with doing it for real in the field or under fire.   

 

[PJOsborne]

TCBF: I know I might have come off as a smart-@$$ when I asked the judges for some leeway, but I figured there wasn't any harm in asking. Thankfully the judges at large were not going around insisting on 'all issue kit, no matter what'. The Comox team wasn't issued the Cadpat soft cap yet so they were wearing something else, and understandably nobody balked at that. I did actually read the rulebook ahead of time, and I did have my canteen with me just in case.

I can certainly understand the desire to level the playing field, and using kit lists as a vehicle to do so.

 

[medaid]

Patrick, can you send me a copy of the SAC rules?

 

[PJOsborne]

PM inbound.

 

[medaid]

PM inbound.

Got it cheers!