• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Trump administration 2024-2028

Dark spots for sure, but no system of people judging people is going to be absolute. The best we can hope is effective guardrails on the power of the State, but the guardrails shouldn't be roadblocks. If people want law enforcement to be done in a glass house, crimes like money laundering and security offences will get the best of us.

The point was made that the government needs to invest more in the courts so cases aren't tossed. That's a start.
Fully agree in investing in the courts, in prosecutions, etc.

I don't favour eliminating guardrails that let folks get railroaded. And Jordan and Stinchcombe are important guardrails in the Canadian criminal justice system.
 
And Jordan and Stinchcombe are important guardrails in the Canadian criminal justice system.

Yes they are, and I say that as someone whose job they make harder.

Stinchcombe did have knock on effects in national security cases. Right now Canada’s system of handling classified evidence is lacking. The status quo allows classified material to be protected, but in such a way that the defence can argue that redacted material would be key to their defence, and the trial judge has zero ability to test or assess that themselves; they have to rely on whatever black box redactions, or content summaries come from the Federal Court after the national security privilege claim process. The U.S. has a mechanism for the trial judge to see the unredacted material; that’s in part a product of U.S. having federal trial courts. All of our trials are in provincial court. So, Canada faces dilemmas in using classified material from domestic or foreign agencies to prosecute. That’s certainly a factor in both national security and to a lesser extend some international organized crime investigations. I noticed the other day that the border announcement included mention of bringing CSE to bear against fentanyl. That could make this challenge even more pronounced.
 
Why do things go through the Provincial Courts? Why not the Federal system?


1734844886671.png
 
No. Using non-governmental systems, using email address aliases to evade regulations governing public records, using Gmail, etc are all weak security practices. Some non-governmental systems might be more secure, but most won't. Use of aliases and alternates even on governmental systems reduces security because it evades accountability and practices which enforce security - guidelines can't be applied by the guardians to things they don't know about.
Ok. we agree. Thought I was reading it as the opposite.
 
…like, in general? Or for a specific type of case?

Lenaitch and Brihard seemed to be suggesting that all cases started in the provincial systems.

Do we need, or do we have, something like FISA courts under the Federal Tribunals?
 
Why do things go through the Provincial Courts? Why not the Federal system?
Because the Constitution says that the provinces are responsible for the 'administration of justice'. The Federal Court of Canada only has original jurisdiction in a limited area, notably if a particular statute says so. We don't have the division of federal and sovereign state laws like to US.

It wouldn't make much difference - pick your level of government that underfunds the system.
 
Because the Constitution says that the provinces are responsible for the 'administration of justice'. The Federal Court of Canada only has original jurisdiction in a limited area, notably if a particular statute says so. We don't have the division of federal and sovereign state laws like to US.

It wouldn't make much difference - pick your level of government that underfunds the system.

And yet we have the Human Rights and International Trade Tribunals as well as the Labour Relations Board, not to mention Courts Martial, that hear cases outside of provincial jurisdiction and are based on federal law, if I understand the situation correctly.

Also, doesn't parliament itself have judicial powers? The ability to summon, compel testimony, find fault and levy punishment?
 
So his expansionist aspirations now include Greenland, Canada, and Panama?
Mannifest destiny never truly died. Our biggest existential threat in Canada is actually our neighbour to the south who we rely on heavily.
 
Why do things go through the Provincial Courts? Why not the Federal system?


View attachment 89947

Lenaitch and Brihard seemed to be suggesting that all cases started in the provincial systems.
Constitutional division of powers. The constitution gives criminal justice to the provinces, full stop. Even the most serious national security cases - terrorism, espionage, classified info leaks - are still, legally, ‘just’ crimes. There’s nothing inherently peculiar about prosecuting them, it’s just that they may end up involving classified material as evidence that will exceedingly rarely be in play for other crimes (but hypothetically could with the right weird fact set).

Federal court only deals with issues that federal law assigns to it. The largest part of their work is judicial review of tribunal decision, particularly for immigration or to a much lesser extent veterans. They’ll deal with some indigenous law related matters, intellectual property stuff… what they aren’t in any way set up or empowered to do is criminal trials. Their involvement in national security law is primarily in hearing and adjudicating national security privilege claims where DOJ and Defense argue over what information will be protected and how. They then feed the result to trial court.
Do we need, or do we have, something like FISA courts under the Federal Tribunals?
In that specific respect, Federal Court also reviews applications for CSIS warrants, which is the closest thing we have to FISA. There’s a lot of difference though; FISC will hear warrant applications from both NSA and FBI. In Canada, a warrant application by CSIS goes to federal court but that’s an intelligence, not a criminal investigation power. If the RCMP were investigating a foreign intelligence matter, say a foreign spy, they would still go through normal provincial or superior court judges with any warrant applications. Judges are exempt from security clearance requirements, so even an affiant in a top secret police investigation looking for a warrant to covertly enter a suspected spy’s residence would be going down to provincial/superior court alongside all the other cops doing much more conventional street crime investigations.

Could a case be made to move certain national security matters prosecuted by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada to a court better equipped to handle classified information? That case could be made. Off the top of my head it would probably require:

  • Legislation establishing a new Security Offences Court;
  • Amendments to the Security Offences Act to move at least some of not all prosecutions under that act to a new court. This act already puts PPSC in charge of ‘Security Offences’ and gives RCMP primacy of investigation, it would be a logical part of shifting judicial responsibility;
  • Major amendment of section 38 of the Canada Evidence Act governing national security and international relations privilege over evidence. This is what built the current system of “DOJ applies to redact, defence argues for access, Federal Court decides what to redact and what to summarize, provincial trial court deals with the black boxes they get and figures out how to run a fair trial.” The Ribic case law determined how that works in practice. The eventual Ortis appeal may further define parts of it. Amendment would be needed to create the ability for the Security Offences Court trial judge to see ‘under the black’ and to assess the merits of defence arguments pertaining to the relevance and exculpatory nature of the contents.

But I don’t know how we finally square this with the jury system. We could have a perfect court setup whereby CSE intercepts and CSIS human sources and wiretaps provide the world’s best evidence of a profound threat to our national security. But your jury could still be the first twelve people you encounter at Loblaws, and that has inherent risks for the information for which protection was sought. I don’t think the Americans have cracked this nut either.

And yet we have the Human Rights and International Trade Tribunals as well as the Labour Relations Board, not to mention Courts Martial, that hear cases outside of provincial jurisdiction and are based on federal law, if I understand the situation correctly.

Tribunals/boards are very different from courts. They’re narrow, specialized, limited, and their decisions don’t bind other cases. They exist to more expeditiously resolve matters that require more specialized technical subject matter knowledge, and which are often a high volume of relatively similar and repetitious cases, like say the immigration and refugee board (though interestingly there’s much more security intelligence evidence case law from reviews of the immigration tribunal than there is from criminal court). All are subject to judicial review in actual courts.

Also, doesn't parliament itself have judicial powers? The ability to summon, compel testimony, find fault and levy punishment?

Some, but pretty limited, and I think it’s wholly to empower Parliament in their ability to ascertain fact so they can legislate in the national interest. I’m not aware of any punitive powers outside of contempt. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but I don’t know of them. But parliamentary powers aren’t my jam.

EDIT TO ADD: Not sure how a security Offences court would get around the co situational apportionment of criminal justice powers still. I don’t see an obvious workaround to 91(27) of the Constitution Act.

An alternative could be to establish a procedure whereby certain provincial Superior Court judges could be security cleared, and afforded the power as a trial court judge to view the underlying material that’s the subject of national security privilege to assess the plausibility of defence claims. This his would also be a major upending of the current system. It would certainly face Charter challenge because it would result in the trier of fact having access to and making decisions based on information not available to the defence.

Yeah, I don’t know.
 
Last edited:
Constitutional division of powers. The constitution gives criminal justice to the provinces, full stop. Even the most serious national security cases - terrorism, espionage, classified info leaks - are still, legally, ‘just’ crimes. There’s nothing inherently peculiar about prosecuting them, it’s just that they may end up involving classified material as evidence that will exceedingly rarely be in play for other crimes (but hypothetically could with the right weird fact set).

Federal court only deals with issues that federal law assigns to it. The largest part of their work is judicial review of tribunal decision, particularly for immigration or to a much lesser extent veterans. They’ll deal with some indigenous law related matters, intellectual property stuff… what they aren’t in any way set up or empowered to do is criminal trials. Their involvement in national security law is primarily in hearing and adjudicating national security privilege claims where DOJ and Defense argue over what information will be protected and how. They then feed the result to trial court.

In that specific respect, Federal Court also reviews applications for CSIS warrants, which is the closest thing we have to FISA. There’s a lot of difference though; FISC will hear warrant applications from both NSA and FBI. In Canada, a warrant application by CSIS goes to federal court but that’s an intelligence, not a criminal investigation power. If the RCMP were investigating a foreign intelligence matter, say a foreign spy, they would still go through normal provincial or superior court judges with any warrant applications. Judges are exempt from security clearance requirements, so even an affiant in a top secret police investigation looking for a warrant to covertly enter a suspected spy’s residence would be going down to provincial/superior court alongside all the other cops doing much more conventional street crime investigations.

Could a case be made to move certain national security matters prosecuted by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada to a court better equipped to handle classified information? That case could be made. Off the top of my head it would probably require:

  • Legislation establishing a new Security Offences Court;
  • Amendments to the Security Offences Act to move at least some of not all prosecutions under that act to a new court. This act already puts PPSC in charge of ‘Security Offences’ and gives RCMP primacy of investigation, it would be a logical part of shifting judicial responsibility;
  • Major amendment of section 38 of the Canada Evidence Act governing national security and international relations privilege over evidence. This is what built the current system of “DOJ applies to redact, defence argues for access, Federal Court decides what to redact and what to summarize, provincial trial court deals with the black boxes they get and figures out how to run a fair trial.” The Ribic case law determined how that works in practice. The eventual Ortis appeal may further define parts of it. Amendment would be needed to create the ability for the Security Offences Court trial judge to see ‘under the black’ and to assess the merits of defence arguments pertaining to the relevance and exculpatory nature of the contents.

But I don’t know how we finally square this with the jury system. We could have a perfect court setup whereby CSE intercepts and CSIS human sources and wiretaps provide the world’s best evidence of a profound threat to our national security. But your jury could still be the first twelve people you encounter at Loblaws, and that has inherent risks for the information for which protection was sought. I don’t think the Americans have cracked this nut either.



Tribunals/boards are very different from courts. They’re narrow, specialized, limited, and their decisions don’t bind other cases. They exist to more expeditiously resolve matters that require more specialized technical subject matter knowledge, and which are often a high volume of relatively similar and repetitious cases, like say the immigration and refugee board (though interestingly there’s much more security intelligence evidence case law from reviews of the immigration tribunal than there is from criminal court). All are subject to judicial review in actual courts.



Some, but pretty limited, and I think it’s wholly to empower Parliament in their ability to ascertain fact so they can legislate in the national interest. I’m not aware of any punitive powers outside of contempt. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but I don’t know of them. But parliamentary powers aren’t my jam.


Thanks for your usual exemplary clarification.

It strikes me, based on the "sunlight is the best disinfectant" bromide, that perhaps the "limited" powers of the tribunals and parliament would be enough to bring a lot of this discussion out of the shadows, even without ascribing criminality. In fact ascribing criminality may be limiting in the ability to disclose the national interests in these cases.

If a Tribunal were empowered to investigate and, as a result of its investigation, an individual were named, with out any finding of criminality then that individual would still have a remedy through the civil courts if they felt their reputation were unjustly impugned.
 

Whoops…
You can solve most of the US illegal immigration problem by invoking greater criminal sanctions against those who employ illegal immigrants.
 
Thanks for your usual exemplary clarification.

It strikes me, based on the "sunlight is the best disinfectant" bromide, that perhaps the "limited" powers of the tribunals and parliament would be enough to bring a lot of this discussion out of the shadows, even without ascribing criminality. In fact ascribing criminality may be limiting in the ability to disclose the national interests in these cases.

If a Tribunal were empowered to investigate and, as a result of its investigation, an individual were named, with out any finding of criminality then that individual would still have a remedy through the civil courts if they felt their reputation were unjustly impugned.
I just added an edit to my previous post that you probably didn’t see just FYI.

Tribunals have no investigative power; they decide based on the evidence and testimony presented by the parties. Adding an investigative function would be quite a thing. I don’t see what that would solve. I think I’ve lost track of which particular nut you’re trying to crack; I think we got here from talking about how Canadian courts and investigations struggle with classified material, mostly in the context of border integrity and cross-border crime. I segued kinda hard, sorry.
 
Back
Top